303 in a 32 H&R case test proposal! - Bravery required - Page 2

cornbush · October 30, 2011, 10:07 AM

Even if you could get someone to do all the work for you, which is highly unlikely............ a bullet protruding from the barrel is probably not going to be considered a loaded chamber indicator......move on.

a guy that can · October 30, 2011, 10:39 AM

OK then, boat tail is out, 150 grain will have to do, sorry corn that is not going to keep me down.
thank you for the input.
we can't know for sure about the wounding potential until we test it in ballistic gel. (at 25 yards)
In JBM I can see that if we want to get it to the same energy as a real 31 H&R it needs to run at about 850 ft/s.
100 GR. SPR JHP is the original load for this data and the highest grains on the Reloading chart so if someone will run this in Quickload with a Hornady 303 Cal 150gr InterLock® SP, Hodgdon Longshot, Starting load: 4.0 grains 903 ft/s at 13,900 CUP, MAX load: 4.7 grains 1056 ft/s at 19,300 CUP.
That may get us close but as I am not a loader its speculation so we will have to see what the program comes up with.
Thanks for the links map!

cornbush · October 30, 2011, 10:54 AM

You can put your time into anything you want, thats your perogative, good luck.

sigcurious · October 30, 2011, 11:00 AM

If something like this was done, would the bullet even stabilize?

cornbush · October 30, 2011, 11:01 AM

no....... There are no riflings to engage and spin stabilize the bullet.

sigcurious · October 30, 2011, 11:36 AM

Does the OP realize this? Safety aside, it seems like 60% the list of what he wants is a no go right off the bat, #2 #3 #5.

cornbush · October 30, 2011, 11:43 AM

Muzzle blast and flash will also be horrendous.

a guy that can · October 30, 2011, 12:13 PM

Thank you Corn.
we cant be sure of the rifling problem until we test it, but like you say I know there is not much rifling to begin with.
Vary true sig I am not expecting much in terms of performance in the derringer but the contender data could be a completely different story.
Who knows, this could be a total flop in the derringer and end up being a fun plinker for the contender.
But first we have to get it past this "what if" stage.

Like my old doctor put it "we can sit here shrugging all day or we can run some tests"

If helpful tips keep showing up its just a mater of time before we get some good loading numbers together and someone can find out in Quickload.

Corn that muzzle blast thing is spot on, Why didn't I think of that!

we need to find a low flash powder like the stuff that Hornady uses in there Critical Defense rounds.

CPTMurdoc30 · October 30, 2011, 01:23 PM

I am in college, work 40+ hours a week, coach my sons soccer team, and help my daughters high school band every Friday night. I still have plenty of time on my hands.

If you want this to come to fruition then YOU need to put in the TIME, EFFORT, and $$$$ to make it work.

Quote:

Nay saying didn't build the great wall.

Edison found 10,000 ways not to make a light-bulb.

Making Excuses didn't build the great wall either.

Yes and Edison didn't say hey you put all your effort and money and time into making a light bulb and I will sit here and just think about doing it.

NO ONE is going to load a wildcat cartridge for someone else.

NO ONE is going to shoot a wildcat cartridge that someone else loaded. So maybe shelve this idea till you get out of school and go on unemployment.

Tom Matiska · October 30, 2011, 01:55 PM

Cobara site doesn't list the twist for its derringer. Other gun manufacturers list 16" for .32 pistols and 18-20" of their long guns. Bullets don't always achieve the advertised spin in the first inch of barrel. Maybe the 123's will work.... 150's or longer maybe not.

The 2.75" barrel length of a derringer includes the 1.325" OAL of the standard round. Seating longer gains case capacity but trades away what precious little barrel length is left. No powder fast enough to reduce muzzle blast in that short of a barrel, or push a jacketed rifle bullet to lethal velocity.

Many people who died from the pocket pistols of yesteryear did so for lack of antibiotics. Death by infection is less likely today, and lots of bad things can happen while you're waiting for that to happen.

If seeing the load is important consider a new 2" barrel Charter 32 revolver. About 7" long, 2oz lighter than the Cobra in aluminum, 2 oz more in stainless, 5 shots, and easy to see if the cylinder is loaded.

dunerjeff · October 30, 2011, 02:02 PM

At 4.0 gr Longshot ,OAL1.85(I just guessed to get pressure),pressure 16,972,muzzle velocity 1061fps.Case fill 40%,
4.5gr Longshot,OAL 1.85,pressure 20,942,mv=1143fps

that is with Hornady 150gr sp seating debth is .280(I figured that is a good amount)

a guy that can · October 30, 2011, 02:26 PM

Great points Tom
we are currently working on the rifling problem but according to duner here it seems OK for short range in terms of ft/s coming in at 1061 (way more than I predicted) and according to JBM ballistics that is 375 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle and 323 at 25 yards dropping one inch. Those are prity close to 327 fed numbers! the numbers look great considering what they have to work with!

I'm assuming the 4.0 grain load pressures are within safe limits so that is a good place to start! Good on ya duner!

dunerjeff · October 30, 2011, 02:35 PM

the saami pressure for 32 h&r mag is 23,500 so the 4.5gr will technically work and has 435ft-lbs energy.
Power pistol at 4.5gr has a MV of 1200fps and 500ft-lbs with 20,850 for pressure.
the one problem is the shot start pressure is 3626 so it is well in the red of what it should be for both powders.

that is with a rifle barrel ,when you go with a 2.7" barrel fps drops to 720 and energy goes to 173ft-lbs with power pistol

a guy that can · October 30, 2011, 02:48 PM

That's a lot of potential but if that start pressure is a problem then it needs to be loaded down a bit (right?)

How is it at 4.3 or .2

dunerjeff · October 30, 2011, 03:02 PM

when I used the 2.7" barrel the shot start dropped to 1650ish still hot but not as bad.All .311-.312 bullets and powder combos I tried came out with the same results 650 to 750fps and 160 to 200ft-lbs.That short barrel is maxxed out.

a guy that can · October 30, 2011, 03:12 PM

This is not a nail in the coffin, thees latest results are actually good news!
It means that it will be a quiet plinker in the derringer and in the contender it has potential.

a guy that can · October 30, 2011, 03:55 PM

It seems that this load may have a future as a competition single shot (like if it needs to follow some specific guidelines to qualify) or a varmint/predator round.

CPTMurdoc30 · October 30, 2011, 05:12 PM

Just a note seating depth should be at least 1 caliber deep. So you want at least .311" of bullet seated in the case.

darkgael · October 30, 2011, 08:32 PM

I load a variant of this concept....a heavy for caliber bullet (150 to 180 grain .30 caliber) fired at or near 1000 fps. The bullets are usually 168gs. HPBTs or 180 grain HPBTs. The case is not the .32 S&W but the .30 Luger. The water volume of both cases is 23 grains of water.
The propellants used are H-110 and AA #9. (7-8 grains depending). Velocities are at or just above 1000 fps.
The cartridge requires a fast twist barrel (1-8") in order to stabilize the bullets.
The combination is called the 7.62 MicroWhisper and was developed by J.D. Jones of SSK Industries.
So this type of thing HAS been done and successfully. It is not terribly different than Jones' idea. In fact, I am fairly sure that SSK will make a barrel for this project if you approach them.
Pete

a guy that can · October 30, 2011, 09:41 PM

Thanks for the seating depth CPTMurdoc30 that will help out dunerjeff with the simulation!

Fast twist rate of 1:8 OK

Pete that is a capital idea, I love SSK but a few years ago I tried talking to J.D. about those Russian APS amphibious rifle cartridges (the bullet is three times the length of the case! Ha! ) to ask if he wanted to try it out, he rattled off something about cheap Russian copies of his whispers and he wont reply to me anymore.

(Another funny idea)
He seems rather sensitive about copies, he is trying to make money so I understand, but if this pans out I will try again!

griz · October 30, 2011, 10:24 PM

At the risk of being acused of missing the point of the whole exercise, why not just shorten the barrel of a derringer enough that a factory round pokes out the front? I'll admit it doesn't sound like it would work well, but then again I don't see why it would work better with a longer bullet. Does the name of the suggested powder help the odds of success?

dunerjeff · October 30, 2011, 11:02 PM

It takes a 6inch barrel and 8.7gr H110 or 6.7gr of AA#9 to get 1000fps out of a 150 gr Speer sp(just an average bullet I picked).All the powders I tried get stuck at the same average velocity,It needs more barrel to get there.But 6 inches is still a pistol.A 10 inch barrels gets 1100fps and 400ft-lbs, 16.5" barrel gets 1256fps and 525ft-lbs.
The .30 Luger and a 168 Hornady BTHP couldn't get 1000fps out of a 2.7"barrel either,but it was about 100fps faster.

a guy that can · October 31, 2011, 12:08 AM

considering that the powder has been figured out.
What is the OAL with the longest bullet on your list seated at .311?
and shortest if you want to see what may fit in a long revolver cylinder (like the 327 fed)

darkgael · October 31, 2011, 05:42 AM

Quote:

It takes a 6inch barrel and 8.7gr H110 or 6.7gr of AA#9 to get 1000fps out of a 150 gr Speer sp(just an average bullet I picked).All the powders I tried get stuck at the same average velocity,It needs more barrel to get there.But 6 inches is still a pistol.A 10 inch barrels gets 1100fps and 400ft-lbs, 16.5" barrel gets 1256fps and 525ft-lbs.
The .30 Luger and a 168 Hornady BTHP couldn't get 1000fps out of a 2.7"barrel either,but it was about 100fps faster.

Duner:
That sounds about right. The chrono data that I have is from an eight inch barrel.
What program are you using to generate those figures?

Pete

Crankylove · October 31, 2011, 07:36 AM

Quote:

it will be a quiet plinker in the derringer

Quiet? Out of a 2 1/2" barrel?

Seriously?

October 30, 2011, 10:07 AM	#26
cornbush Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: The retarded place below Idaho Posts: 1,408	Even if you could get someone to do all the work for you, which is highly unlikely............ a bullet protruding from the barrel is probably not going to be considered a loaded chamber indicator......move on. __________________ The best shot I ever made was an accident

October 30, 2011, 10:39 AM	#27
a guy that can Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 22	OK then, boat tail is out, 150 grain will have to do, sorry corn that is not going to keep me down. thank you for the input. we can't know for sure about the wounding potential until we test it in ballistic gel. (at 25 yards) In JBM I can see that if we want to get it to the same energy as a real 31 H&R it needs to run at about 850 ft/s. 100 GR. SPR JHP is the original load for this data and the highest grains on the Reloading chart so if someone will run this in Quickload with a Hornady 303 Cal 150gr InterLock® SP, Hodgdon Longshot, Starting load: 4.0 grains 903 ft/s at 13,900 CUP, MAX load: 4.7 grains 1056 ft/s at 19,300 CUP. That may get us close but as I am not a loader its speculation so we will have to see what the program comes up with. Thanks for the links map! __________________ Its a screen name not a qualification - Shooting is fun, keep it that way! If life gives you lemons make lemonade. If life gives you melons your dyslexic.

October 30, 2011, 10:54 AM	#28
cornbush Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: The retarded place below Idaho Posts: 1,408	You can put your time into anything you want, thats your perogative, good luck. __________________ The best shot I ever made was an accident

October 30, 2011, 11:01 AM	#30
cornbush Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: The retarded place below Idaho Posts: 1,408	no....... There are no riflings to engage and spin stabilize the bullet. __________________ The best shot I ever made was an accident

October 30, 2011, 11:43 AM	#32
cornbush Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: The retarded place below Idaho Posts: 1,408	Muzzle blast and flash will also be horrendous. __________________ The best shot I ever made was an accident

October 30, 2011, 11:00 AM	#29
sigcurious Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2011 Posts: 1,755	If something like this was done, would the bullet even stabilize?

October 30, 2011, 11:36 AM	#31
sigcurious Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2011 Posts: 1,755	Does the OP realize this? Safety aside, it seems like 60% the list of what he wants is a no go right off the bat, #2 #3 #5.

October 30, 2011, 12:13 PM	#33
a guy that can Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 22	Thank you Corn. we cant be sure of the rifling problem until we test it, but like you say I know there is not much rifling to begin with. Vary true sig I am not expecting much in terms of performance in the derringer but the contender data could be a completely different story. Who knows, this could be a total flop in the derringer and end up being a fun plinker for the contender. But first we have to get it past this "what if" stage. Like my old doctor put it "we can sit here shrugging all day or we can run some tests" If helpful tips keep showing up its just a mater of time before we get some good loading numbers together and someone can find out in Quickload. Corn that muzzle blast thing is spot on, Why didn't I think of that! we need to find a low flash powder like the stuff that Hornady uses in there Critical Defense rounds. __________________ Its a screen name not a qualification - Shooting is fun, keep it that way! If life gives you lemons make lemonade. If life gives you melons your dyslexic. Last edited by a guy that can; October 30, 2011 at 12:27 PM.

October 30, 2011, 01:55 PM	#35
Tom Matiska Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pa Posts: 1,029	Cobara site doesn't list the twist for its derringer. Other gun manufacturers list 16" for .32 pistols and 18-20" of their long guns. Bullets don't always achieve the advertised spin in the first inch of barrel. Maybe the 123's will work.... 150's or longer maybe not. The 2.75" barrel length of a derringer includes the 1.325" OAL of the standard round. Seating longer gains case capacity but trades away what precious little barrel length is left. No powder fast enough to reduce muzzle blast in that short of a barrel, or push a jacketed rifle bullet to lethal velocity. Many people who died from the pocket pistols of yesteryear did so for lack of antibiotics. Death by infection is less likely today, and lots of bad things can happen while you're waiting for that to happen. If seeing the load is important consider a new 2" barrel Charter 32 revolver. About 7" long, 2oz lighter than the Cobra in aluminum, 2 oz more in stainless, 5 shots, and easy to see if the cylinder is loaded.

October 30, 2011, 02:02 PM	#36
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	At 4.0 gr Longshot ,OAL1.85(I just guessed to get pressure),pressure 16,972,muzzle velocity 1061fps.Case fill 40%, 4.5gr Longshot,OAL 1.85,pressure 20,942,mv=1143fps that is with Hornady 150gr sp seating debth is .280(I figured that is a good amount)

October 30, 2011, 02:26 PM	#37
a guy that can Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 22	Great points Tom we are currently working on the rifling problem but according to duner here it seems OK for short range in terms of ft/s coming in at 1061 (way more than I predicted) and according to JBM ballistics that is 375 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle and 323 at 25 yards dropping one inch. Those are prity close to 327 fed numbers! the numbers look great considering what they have to work with! I'm assuming the 4.0 grain load pressures are within safe limits so that is a good place to start! Good on ya duner! __________________ Its a screen name not a qualification - Shooting is fun, keep it that way! If life gives you lemons make lemonade. If life gives you melons your dyslexic.

October 30, 2011, 02:35 PM	#38
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	the saami pressure for 32 h&r mag is 23,500 so the 4.5gr will technically work and has 435ft-lbs energy. Power pistol at 4.5gr has a MV of 1200fps and 500ft-lbs with 20,850 for pressure. the one problem is the shot start pressure is 3626 so it is well in the red of what it should be for both powders. that is with a rifle barrel ,when you go with a 2.7" barrel fps drops to 720 and energy goes to 173ft-lbs with power pistol Last edited by dunerjeff; October 30, 2011 at 02:44 PM.

October 30, 2011, 02:48 PM	#39
a guy that can Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 22	That's a lot of potential but if that start pressure is a problem then it needs to be loaded down a bit (right?) How is it at 4.3 or .2 __________________ Its a screen name not a qualification - Shooting is fun, keep it that way! If life gives you lemons make lemonade. If life gives you melons your dyslexic.

October 30, 2011, 03:02 PM	#40
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	when I used the 2.7" barrel the shot start dropped to 1650ish still hot but not as bad.All .311-.312 bullets and powder combos I tried came out with the same results 650 to 750fps and 160 to 200ft-lbs.That short barrel is maxxed out.

October 30, 2011, 03:12 PM	#41
a guy that can Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 22	This is not a nail in the coffin, thees latest results are actually good news! It means that it will be a quiet plinker in the derringer and in the contender it has potential. __________________ Its a screen name not a qualification - Shooting is fun, keep it that way! If life gives you lemons make lemonade. If life gives you melons your dyslexic.

October 30, 2011, 03:55 PM	#42
a guy that can Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 22	It seems that this load may have a future as a competition single shot (like if it needs to follow some specific guidelines to qualify) or a varmint/predator round. __________________ Its a screen name not a qualification - Shooting is fun, keep it that way! If life gives you lemons make lemonade. If life gives you melons your dyslexic.

October 30, 2011, 05:12 PM	#43
CPTMurdoc30 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2008 Location: Stafford VA Posts: 969	Just a note seating depth should be at least 1 caliber deep. So you want at least .311" of bullet seated in the case. __________________ Solving Virginia's Ground Hog problems 50gr at a time.....

October 30, 2011, 08:32 PM	#44
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Load I load a variant of this concept....a heavy for caliber bullet (150 to 180 grain .30 caliber) fired at or near 1000 fps. The bullets are usually 168gs. HPBTs or 180 grain HPBTs. The case is not the .32 S&W but the .30 Luger. The water volume of both cases is 23 grains of water. The propellants used are H-110 and AA #9. (7-8 grains depending). Velocities are at or just above 1000 fps. The cartridge requires a fast twist barrel (1-8") in order to stabilize the bullets. The combination is called the 7.62 MicroWhisper and was developed by J.D. Jones of SSK Industries. So this type of thing HAS been done and successfully. It is not terribly different than Jones' idea. In fact, I am fairly sure that SSK will make a barrel for this project if you approach them. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

October 30, 2011, 09:41 PM	#45
a guy that can Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 22	Thanks for the seating depth CPTMurdoc30 that will help out dunerjeff with the simulation! Fast twist rate of 1:8 OK Pete that is a capital idea, I love SSK but a few years ago I tried talking to J.D. about those Russian APS amphibious rifle cartridges (the bullet is three times the length of the case! Ha! ) to ask if he wanted to try it out, he rattled off something about cheap Russian copies of his whispers and he wont reply to me anymore. (Another funny idea) He seems rather sensitive about copies, he is trying to make money so I understand, but if this pans out I will try again! __________________ Its a screen name not a qualification - Shooting is fun, keep it that way! If life gives you lemons make lemonade. If life gives you melons your dyslexic.

October 30, 2011, 10:24 PM	#46
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	At the risk of being acused of missing the point of the whole exercise, why not just shorten the barrel of a derringer enough that a factory round pokes out the front? I'll admit it doesn't sound like it would work well, but then again I don't see why it would work better with a longer bullet. Does the name of the suggested powder help the odds of success?

October 30, 2011, 11:02 PM	#47
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	It takes a 6inch barrel and 8.7gr H110 or 6.7gr of AA#9 to get 1000fps out of a 150 gr Speer sp(just an average bullet I picked).All the powders I tried get stuck at the same average velocity,It needs more barrel to get there.But 6 inches is still a pistol.A 10 inch barrels gets 1100fps and 400ft-lbs, 16.5" barrel gets 1256fps and 525ft-lbs. The .30 Luger and a 168 Hornady BTHP couldn't get 1000fps out of a 2.7"barrel either,but it was about 100fps faster. Last edited by dunerjeff; October 30, 2011 at 11:08 PM.

October 31, 2011, 12:08 AM	#48
a guy that can Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 22	considering that the powder has been figured out. What is the OAL with the longest bullet on your list seated at .311? and shortest if you want to see what may fit in a long revolver cylinder (like the 327 fed) __________________ Its a screen name not a qualification - Shooting is fun, keep it that way! If life gives you lemons make lemonade. If life gives you melons your dyslexic.

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