Shot lots of guns this weekend at the SoCal show.

[longhollow]

Hi Folks,

Was able to shoot lots of handguns this weekend at the big show in SoCal.

Again I'm looking for my first large cal handgun for use in IDPA and/or USPSA events. I'm pretty well set on a getting a new 9mm semi-auto for production/stock.

My experience is with a .22 cal Ruger Mark II Target pistol so I don't have very much experience to judge/compare the various guns I shot. But here are my novice level views.

The Glocks didn't feel as comfortable in the hand as the other similar plastic guns. The 17 and 34 also didn't seem to naturally point well for me. But the Glocks do have a large base of users which means I would be able to easily find help/advice. They also have a good reputation for reliability and lots of 3rd party accessories.

CZ wasn't at the show. Wanted to try them out but couldn't.

Of the guns I tried I liked the H&K USP, Walther P99, S&W M&P 9, Beretta 92FS, and the Springfield XD.

The H&K USP pointed well and the trigger was very smooth. Like the H&K the Walther P99 also seemed to be very well built. The M&P 9 was very comfortable in the hand, pointed well, but the trigger didn't seem as smooth. This may have been due to it's extensvie use at the show.

I also liked the classic Beretta 92FS and the Springfield XD. The problem with the Beretta is that due to government contracts it is near impossible to get one. But I liked the weight and the way it felt. I've also always wanted to own one, even before I thought about competitive shooting. The Springfield XD Tactical in 5" was also very comfortable in my hand and pointed well.

The main differences to me between these various models seemed to by their "safety" controls and other controls on the guns.

I hate to open up a can of worms but I would like your thoughts on these various models.

I want to say to the Glock fans that I am indeed a novice and my dislike of the feel of the 17 and 34 may be based on my limited experience. But for my medium sized hands they didn't feel as good as other brands. Sorry.

THANKS!!

[yar]

One main concern is the controls (safety, slide release, and mag release). There seems to be two standards, americanized controls and European controls. Americanized controls have the mag release on the grip to be hit with the strong hand thumb. Euro controls have the mag release next to the trigger guard and it is hit with the strong hand index finger or with the weak hand. A example is the HK USP. Pick one set of controls and stick with that. Once you develop muscle memory it will be hard to go back and forth. I knew a guy who shot a USP his first year of USPSA then switched to a STI. For the next year he would go though the motions of reaching for the mag release like it was a USP instead of hitting it with his thumb. Took a while to unlearn that. Personally I say only get pistols with americanized controls, you will have a wider base to choose from.

Next I dislike the USP. I know they are real popular because they do a great job marketing it. Everyone one from Jack Baur and the navy seals use them to kill everyone and their brother. (yes I know the seals don't really use the usp but try explaining that to the gun store commandos and internet shooters, the USP and Sigs are their flagship guns). For me the USP is not suitable for competition shooting because it has a very high bore axis. It sits real high in your hand so it will flip more violently when rapid fired. It also has that funky double recoil systems and I can see the front sight do a figure 8 during recoil when it transfers from one spring to the next and back again. If all you do is slowfire and you don't have the ability to call your shots and see the front sight in recoil you may never notice.

The berretta has a very smooth action. The slide seems like it's gliding on ice. I also really like the look of the cut away slide. Unfortunately I think the mag capacity is low, there are little aftermarket parts (the kind we use for competition, basepads, adjustable sights, etc) for it. The trigger also sucks and even after a trigger job they are less than ideal. There is also a pin that breaks every 5000 rounds that causes the gun to crap out.

I can nitpick most guns out there. For competition the two best are the 1911 style and the Glock. They both have low bore axis which give you more leverage to control muzzle flip. They also both have short trigger reset where the trigger needs to move forward a shorter distance to reset for the next shot. These two things make the gun very fast. There are a ton of aftermarket accessories for both guns. This is why these two platforms dominate all the action pistol type games.

Regarding the glock they are difficult to shoot with the thumbs down and crossed grip. The thumbs should point towards the target. This will allow you the most mechanical leverage and will also let you shoot wide gripped pistols more easily. This is also the grip that all the better action pistol shooters use. The glock grip angle is weird at first as it is much more angled. there is also that odd bump on the backstrap that many people dislike. It takes some getting used to. I have small hands and I shoot the glock very well. I did get a aftermarket oversized mag button to help he hit those mag changes. People tell me my mag changes are very good.

I really recommend the CZ if you did not take a liking to the Glock. I shoot all over So cal, including Norco. I'll be there the 3rd sunday at the SSA steel match. If you come out you can try my glocks and CZ's. They are all completely tricked out for competition. The club also has loaner guns like several XD's incuding the tactical in 9, and 45, CZ 75's, and 1911's. You can take any of these for a spin if you buy some ammo from them. They got complete loaner gear including belts, holsters, mag pouches and mags. You can just show up with your wallet and shoot a match using a different pistol for each stage. There is also a free pot luck lunch that day.

Too bad you did not check out their booth at the sports fair. They had 3 berms one doing 50 cal, another doing tactical shotgun, and a 3rd that had pistols, and car 9's and all sorts of stuff. They had CZ's at the 3rd booth.

[bilyspit]

Yar,
You're saying CZ was there? I had no interest in shooting the .50cal so I didn't go over there, and there was no mention of CZ in any of the promo literature. I basically went to the Raahauges Shooting Sports Fair to shoot the CZ line of pistols and was just hoping their omission from the literature was a fluke. I will feel mighty dumb if it turns out they were there. Oh well.

Longhollow, Interesting you say you didn't like the trigger on the Smith & Wesson M&P... I loved it, and subsequently didn't care for the Beretta. The 92 is simply not my cup of tea, and the PX4 even less. Just goes to show you why they make all these different guns. We all have different trigger tastes.

I also enjoyed shooting the Para-Ord LDA guns. Different, but I liked it and may consider one some day.

My buddy and I had always wanted to try a Walther PPK (the whole James Bond thing you know) so we tried one for fun and we both thought the gun was a blast to shoot. I wouldn't stake my life on one, but I could see owning one for "just because" factor.

I also shot the Smith & Wesson 8 shot .357mag M&P model which I thought was extremely comfortable to shoot - & pretty sexy looking (in my eyes anyway) & I also enjoyed shooting a Savage bolt gun with an Accutrigger, and the Ruger Alaskan 44 (good recoil absorption in the grip).

It's a fun event and I'm very thankful they put it on!

I'm one of those guys who believes you are going to be a great shot, with the gun you train with most. Even just a day of professional training in which you put 500 rounds down range, really helps you to get to know your gun better, no matter what gun it is. At the end of the day, all things being equal, you will be twice the shot you were when you started... The downside is you will also realize how much you don't know about shooting and how much more you need to train. This was my experience anyway. I trained with a Sig and I can shoot well with it now, but I am anxious to train more. For the next training session, I intend to either rent or borrow a Glock to see what all the fuss is about. Millions of rabidly satisfied owners can't be wrong.

Lots of great points Yar!

[longhollow]

Yar: Thanks for the invite to the Norco Match. I'll try and check it out. I didn't see the CZ booth. I agree, I liked the thumb mag release as on the M&P9.

Bilyspit: The M&P9 trigger felt rough, like it was full of dirt. The guy told me it was due to the fact that it was being shot non-stop that day. I also didn't care for the Beretta PX4.

I shot the Para Carry 9 for fun, they didn't have any of the 1911 style guns in 9mm.

I also shot a few revolvers, the S&W 360 & 686, and the Ruger SP101 & GP101. I tried the Benelli M2 ComfortTech 12g & 20g shotguns, very smooth. I should have tried more but I didn't want to loose focus.

It was alot of fun. Wish I had gone to some of the demonstrations.

[yar]

No CZ was not at Sports Fair this year. One of the SSA booths did have to CZ's to test drive. They have a booth every year and have just about every pistol imaginable and in various calibers. They have CZ75's in 9 and 40, 1911's in 9, 38 super, 40, and 45 with and without compensators, all manner of wheel guns including 500 S&W in 6" and 4". You name it they got it. UZI carbines, 9mm AR's. How did you guys miss it?

It was the berm with the long line and all kinds of steel targets to shoot at. Mostly plate racks. For $5 you can take any of the guns for a test drive.

[PPGMD]

The M&P's trigger isn't very good when it's new and clean either.

I agree that sometimes the double recoil system of the USP (and all Hk guns) can be a problem, but with practice it's a very easy gun to shoot right at least for me.

Anyways the magazine release is what sealed it for me, for me the American style thumb release seemed unnatural, I have to shift my grip to reach it on the guns I tried, with the Hk and Walther style release I don't even have to shift my sights from the target.

My opinion, picking a gun is the most complex thing you have to buy. And you can't go wrong with a 1911.

[Jim Watson]

Of the guns I tried I liked the H&K USP, Walther P99, S&W M&P 9, Beretta 92FS, and the Springfield XD.

I briefly owned a USP .45. It was accurate and reliable but was too big for my hand. It should have been a 9mm. You are pretty well stuck with the trigger pull they ship it with, the gun is not real ameniable to gunsmithing. I don't think the high bore axis is a huge liability in 9mm. It hasn't been in my P226.

A friend has a P99. I like it and plan to shoot it some more with a view towards getting my own. They are very uncommon in IDPA, or much of anyplace else, they just did not catch on versus Glock.

The two Plastic M&Ps I have shot had tough triggers but were otherwise suitable, with comfortable grip shape and mild felt recoil. Dan Burwell will do what I have READ to be a good trigger job for $50. P M&P has its own board at http://mp-pistol.com/boards/portal.php

Beretta 92s are generally very accurate. They are large for my hand. They have a higher maintenance requirement for competiton use than something like a Glock. I think Ernest Langdon replaced springs every 5000 rounds, locking block every 20,000.

The XD is said to be coming on in USPSA Production, up to 18% of entries at the 2006 Nationals. But it is considered single action and cannot shoot in IDPA SSP, it enters ESP with the small caliber 1911s and way modified Glocks.

[PPGMD]

I briefly owned a USP .45. It was accurate and reliable but was too big for my hand. It should have been a 9mm. You are pretty well stuck with the trigger pull they ship it with, the gun is not real ameniable to gunsmithing.

The USP is not as customizable in the trigger then the 1911, but there are a few smiths that can do trigger jobs on the USP to make it more to your liking. The match trigger is a night and day difference compared to the normal USP trigger, which is fairly good already for a double/single IMO.

[davo17]

Was Tom Knapp there?

[longhollow]

After 10 days of waiting I'm about to pick up my M&P 9mm. Thanks to everyone who gave me their input. Was tempted by several other guns, but the Smith & Wesson staff at the show really were helpful and I have read lots of good things about their after the sale support. The gun also seemed the most comfortable in my hand.

Thanks Again!
Bruce

[k8do]

You will be happy with the M&P.. Good gun good choice...

denny