Quick load question...

1stmar · August 24, 2012, 09:48 PM

One powder that seems to work very well for me in 22-250 is, just so happens I'm running low but I have some 4064 which is fairly close to the same burn rate. Got to thinking, if I could match the pressure curve and velocity or at least approximate it, I should get similar results with 4064 as I do with 2230, all other things being equal. Would quickload be able to help me predict what the right charge would be in 4064? 4064 and varget are closer in burn rates and may be a better example.

Clark · August 25, 2012, 01:58 PM

Quickload thinks that in a 22-250 with 55 gr, at SAAMI pressure, starting out with 4064, you go to 2230, you use 1% less powder and get 2% less velocity.

If I could only get my velocities with the same powder to stay within 2% I would be happy.

What does it all mean?
The difference is down in the noise.

**Unclenick** · August 25, 2012, 02:31 PM

1stmar,

If you post your load and your barrel length, QuickLOAD can be used to make two different powders give you the same barrel time which should keep you in an accuracy sweet spot if you have one now, though this assumes you used the same primer for both.

A couple of differences you need to be aware of. IMR4064 and Varget are stick grain propellants, where 2230 is a double base spherical propellant. Spherical propellants are easier for most powder measures to meter to a consistent weight. On the other hand, spherical propellants are harder to ignite and many times do better with magnum primers for that reason (CCI revised their magnum primer formulation specifically for spherical propellants in 1989, and these do sometimes cut down on velocity spread for folks shooting at ranges long enough for that to matter).

IMR4064 and Varget are single-base stick grain propellants. Stick powders are typically easy to ignite (especially IMR4064), and often do best with the mildest primer you can find (currently the TulAmmo KVB7, IME, but this varies over time), especially if the charge fills the case completely. Single base powders can be a little little less sooty in their fouling. The fact they don't meter as repeatably to a particular weight is somewhat compensated for by the tendency of the more tightly packed grains in a heavier load to burn more slowly, and vice versa, so the disadvantage isn't as great as it first appears. Many guns prefer stick powders for accuracy, but this isn't a universal law and you just have to try them yourself to find out.

Note that no two powder burn rate charts seem to agree on burn rate order. This is partly because the manufacturers don't publish them for each other to see, and partly because burn rates vary some, lot to lot, and so the evaluation depends which run the chart sample was taken from. Few of the charts are assembled by actual burn rate testing, but are more often inferred from pressure and velocity curves. Here's one showing 2230 as faster than either Varget or 4064. I don't doubt that for the lots they had, this is how it appeared to be. That doesn't mean yours will match exactly.

1stmar · August 25, 2012, 03:18 PM

Uncle nick, I am using a 26" barrel, 34gr of aa2230 and 53 gr sierra hpfb. I asked the question for a couple of reasons , first I am considering purchasing quick load and was exploring how it might advantage me. Secondly to see if it was a plausible theory and how it plays out.

Clark I am getting 3555 fps with 34 gr of aa2230, I haven't checked 4064 yet, with 36 gr of varget I get 3650.

Uncle nick, sounds like you are suggesting magnum primers, I am using cci200s with aa2230. My Sd is 19 and es is 53, so that may help. Currently groups ~.31-.5. I do like the way it meters and it does seem cleaner.

Sounds like you guys are pleased with. Quick load? Im going download the demo, I want something more then a db for loads.

**Unclenick** · August 27, 2012, 11:41 AM

For 2230 a magnum primer may help. So can just deburring flash holes, IME. Spherical propellants are just harder to light up consistently, especially when case fill is poor, as in your situation. This article explains it.

I started with your load in QuickLOAD and found that if I increased the case water overflow capacity to 44.8 grains (fired capacity) I get 81.4% case fill with 34 grains of 2230, 3555 fps from a 26" tube and 1.096 ms of barrel time. Usually a sweet spot will correspond well to some particular barrel time, even across different powders.

Switching to 4064 I get 34.2 grains giving me the 1.094 ms barrel time (as close as I can adjust it without going to hundredths of a grain). It's a lower bulk density powder, so you get a much better 92.9% case fill. You have to settle for a slightly slower 3535 fps MV, but that's within your current velocity SD. Your particular lot of powder may differ from average, but if you adjust the charge to match that velocity, you barrel time should be a very close match to what you were getting with 2230.

I'd expect this load to have lower velocity spread because of the case fill and good ignition characteristics. Be aware that stick powders sometimes produce best consistency when dispensed to the same case fill percentage rather than the exact same weight from one charge to the next. The JDS Quick Measure is best for this with stick powders, IME, but isn't inexpensive. The inexpensive Lee Perfect measure does surprisingly well with stick powders and would be my next choice.

1stmar · August 27, 2012, 02:12 PM

Thanks uncle nick this is great, I'll test it out this weekend and let you know. If this proves accurate it's makes quick load immensely valuable and well worth the investment.

**Unclenick** · August 27, 2012, 02:41 PM

1stmar,

It just occurred to me I assumed IMR 4064, but since you already had one Accurate powder that what you have might be Accurate 4064. If so, the charge weight changes to 36 grains, and the velocity is 3657 fps and the case fill is an even better 99%.

The software predicted 48,613 psi for your 2230 load, 46,999 psi for the IMR 4064 load, and 50,565 psi for the Accurate 4064 load.

The 34.2 grain load of IMR 4064 is half way between the 52 and 55 grain bullet starting loads listed by Hodgdon, and should not need to be reduced any further for testing.

Accurate lists 33.7 grains to 37.5 grains for Accurate 4064 under the 53 grain SMK, so QuickLOAD's 36 grain recommendation is not a starting load. This version of 4064 is apparently a little faster than IMR's, so I would use the 2% of maximum rule and load at least one round each at 33.7 grains, 34.5 grains, and 35.2 grains, firing them from low to high before firing 36 grains, just to be prudent and to check for pressure signs and velocities. Keep in mind that QuickLOAD's powder models come from measured behavior of some limited number of lots, and your lot may be different, as happens sometimes.

Accurate doesn't list any 2230 loads for your bullet in the .22-350, but starts instead with 2460. QuickLOAD doesn't report a lot of difference between them, and I don't know if that's models being taken from unusual lots, or if the cartridge and bullet combination just happen to be falling in the middle of a dividing line where performance for the two really is pretty similar.

Let us know how it goes.

1stmar · August 27, 2012, 04:48 PM

Thanks unclenick, I am using imr4064. It's been so long since I got the recipe for aa2330 I don't know where it came from but you are right there doesnt seem to be a lot out the currently showing that powder for 22-250. I am using a lee pp measure, can't beat it for the price. My next reloading investment will be a hornady auto charge I think, and probably quick load. I wish they had an iPad version.

Actually I just checked my hornady 4thedition (1991, been out of it for awhile), it has aa2230 listed, pretty sure that's where I got it.

1stmar · August 31, 2012, 05:06 PM

Shot 3 loads today 34 gr of aa2230, 36 gr varget and 34.2 gr of imr 4064

Aa2230
35560 fps
Sd 65
Es 149

If I decide to stay with this load I'll be looking to go to magnum primers. That es is crazy. It was late in the day and lighting was getting dim, It could have been a bad reading on the chrono.

Varget
3640 fps
Sd 20
Es 49

Not great but the groups were very consistent, 10 shots into .58

4064
3459 fps
Sd 24
Es 54

Group was ok till I had a flyer. 4 shots into.7 last shot was the highest velocity at 3488 and hit high on the target opening up the group to 1"

Ill probably stick with the varget, the groups have been very consistent. I'm going to work on some seating depth and see if I can get the sd and es downwind tighten up the groups.

**Unclenick** · August 31, 2012, 09:09 PM

1stmar,

It looks like your lot of IMR4064 is almost 4% slower than the one used for the numbers in the QL database. It's possible for that to happen, as the specs allow a 6% span in burn rate (±3%). Based on the actual velocity you got with your lot, it looks like the load would need to be adjusted up to 35.0 grains for your lot to hit the target barrel time. Still under the maximums listed by Hodgdon, which, with your bullet, would be around 36.6 or 36.7 grains, interpolating their 52 and 55 grain bullet data to 53 grains.

It looks like your Varget load would come down to 34.8 grains to match the 2230 load barrel time. The velocity then drops to 3527 fps, though. Varget
burns early and isn't a velocity powder normally.

Anyway, a couple more things to try.

1stmar · August 31, 2012, 09:12 PM

Thanks unclenick, Ill give those a try...

August 24, 2012, 09:48 PM	#1
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Quick load question... One powder that seems to work very well for me in 22-250 is, just so happens I'm running low but I have some 4064 which is fairly close to the same burn rate. Got to thinking, if I could match the pressure curve and velocity or at least approximate it, I should get similar results with 4064 as I do with 2230, all other things being equal. Would quickload be able to help me predict what the right charge would be in 4064? 4064 and varget are closer in burn rates and may be a better example. Last edited by 1stmar; August 25, 2012 at 03:21 AM.

August 25, 2012, 01:58 PM	#2
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Quickload thinks that in a 22-250 with 55 gr, at SAAMI pressure, starting out with 4064, you go to 2230, you use 1% less powder and get 2% less velocity. If I could only get my velocities with the same powder to stay within 2% I would be happy. What does it all mean? The difference is down in the noise. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

August 25, 2012, 02:31 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	1stmar, If you post your load and your barrel length, QuickLOAD can be used to make two different powders give you the same barrel time which should keep you in an accuracy sweet spot if you have one now, though this assumes you used the same primer for both. A couple of differences you need to be aware of. IMR4064 and Varget are stick grain propellants, where 2230 is a double base spherical propellant. Spherical propellants are easier for most powder measures to meter to a consistent weight. On the other hand, spherical propellants are harder to ignite and many times do better with magnum primers for that reason (CCI revised their magnum primer formulation specifically for spherical propellants in 1989, and these do sometimes cut down on velocity spread for folks shooting at ranges long enough for that to matter). IMR4064 and Varget are single-base stick grain propellants. Stick powders are typically easy to ignite (especially IMR4064), and often do best with the mildest primer you can find (currently the TulAmmo KVB7, IME, but this varies over time), especially if the charge fills the case completely. Single base powders can be a little little less sooty in their fouling. The fact they don't meter as repeatably to a particular weight is somewhat compensated for by the tendency of the more tightly packed grains in a heavier load to burn more slowly, and vice versa, so the disadvantage isn't as great as it first appears. Many guns prefer stick powders for accuracy, but this isn't a universal law and you just have to try them yourself to find out. Note that no two powder burn rate charts seem to agree on burn rate order. This is partly because the manufacturers don't publish them for each other to see, and partly because burn rates vary some, lot to lot, and so the evaluation depends which run the chart sample was taken from. Few of the charts are assembled by actual burn rate testing, but are more often inferred from pressure and velocity curves. Here's one showing 2230 as faster than either Varget or 4064. I don't doubt that for the lots they had, this is how it appeared to be. That doesn't mean yours will match exactly. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 25, 2012, 03:18 PM	#4
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Uncle nick, I am using a 26" barrel, 34gr of aa2230 and 53 gr sierra hpfb. I asked the question for a couple of reasons , first I am considering purchasing quick load and was exploring how it might advantage me. Secondly to see if it was a plausible theory and how it plays out. Clark I am getting 3555 fps with 34 gr of aa2230, I haven't checked 4064 yet, with 36 gr of varget I get 3650. Uncle nick, sounds like you are suggesting magnum primers, I am using cci200s with aa2230. My Sd is 19 and es is 53, so that may help. Currently groups ~.31-.5. I do like the way it meters and it does seem cleaner. Sounds like you guys are pleased with. Quick load? Im going download the demo, I want something more then a db for loads. Last edited by 1stmar; August 25, 2012 at 03:42 PM.

August 27, 2012, 11:41 AM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	For 2230 a magnum primer may help. So can just deburring flash holes, IME. Spherical propellants are just harder to light up consistently, especially when case fill is poor, as in your situation. This article explains it. I started with your load in QuickLOAD and found that if I increased the case water overflow capacity to 44.8 grains (fired capacity) I get 81.4% case fill with 34 grains of 2230, 3555 fps from a 26" tube and 1.096 ms of barrel time. Usually a sweet spot will correspond well to some particular barrel time, even across different powders. Switching to 4064 I get 34.2 grains giving me the 1.094 ms barrel time (as close as I can adjust it without going to hundredths of a grain). It's a lower bulk density powder, so you get a much better 92.9% case fill. You have to settle for a slightly slower 3535 fps MV, but that's within your current velocity SD. Your particular lot of powder may differ from average, but if you adjust the charge to match that velocity, you barrel time should be a very close match to what you were getting with 2230. I'd expect this load to have lower velocity spread because of the case fill and good ignition characteristics. Be aware that stick powders sometimes produce best consistency when dispensed to the same case fill percentage rather than the exact same weight from one charge to the next. The JDS Quick Measure is best for this with stick powders, IME, but isn't inexpensive. The inexpensive Lee Perfect measure does surprisingly well with stick powders and would be my next choice. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; August 31, 2012 at 08:50 PM. Reason: typo fix

August 27, 2012, 02:12 PM	#6
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Thanks uncle nick this is great, I'll test it out this weekend and let you know. If this proves accurate it's makes quick load immensely valuable and well worth the investment.

August 27, 2012, 02:41 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	1stmar, It just occurred to me I assumed IMR 4064, but since you already had one Accurate powder that what you have might be Accurate 4064. If so, the charge weight changes to 36 grains, and the velocity is 3657 fps and the case fill is an even better 99%. The software predicted 48,613 psi for your 2230 load, 46,999 psi for the IMR 4064 load, and 50,565 psi for the Accurate 4064 load. The 34.2 grain load of IMR 4064 is half way between the 52 and 55 grain bullet starting loads listed by Hodgdon, and should not need to be reduced any further for testing. Accurate lists 33.7 grains to 37.5 grains for Accurate 4064 under the 53 grain SMK, so QuickLOAD's 36 grain recommendation is not a starting load. This version of 4064 is apparently a little faster than IMR's, so I would use the 2% of maximum rule and load at least one round each at 33.7 grains, 34.5 grains, and 35.2 grains, firing them from low to high before firing 36 grains, just to be prudent and to check for pressure signs and velocities. Keep in mind that QuickLOAD's powder models come from measured behavior of some limited number of lots, and your lot may be different, as happens sometimes. Accurate doesn't list any 2230 loads for your bullet in the .22-350, but starts instead with 2460. QuickLOAD doesn't report a lot of difference between them, and I don't know if that's models being taken from unusual lots, or if the cartridge and bullet combination just happen to be falling in the middle of a dividing line where performance for the two really is pretty similar. Let us know how it goes. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 27, 2012, 04:48 PM	#8
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Thanks unclenick, I am using imr4064. It's been so long since I got the recipe for aa2330 I don't know where it came from but you are right there doesnt seem to be a lot out the currently showing that powder for 22-250. I am using a lee pp measure, can't beat it for the price. My next reloading investment will be a hornady auto charge I think, and probably quick load. I wish they had an iPad version. Actually I just checked my hornady 4thedition (1991, been out of it for awhile), it has aa2230 listed, pretty sure that's where I got it.

August 31, 2012, 05:06 PM	#9
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Shot 3 loads today 34 gr of aa2230, 36 gr varget and 34.2 gr of imr 4064 Aa2230 35560 fps Sd 65 Es 149 If I decide to stay with this load I'll be looking to go to magnum primers. That es is crazy. It was late in the day and lighting was getting dim, It could have been a bad reading on the chrono. Varget 3640 fps Sd 20 Es 49 Not great but the groups were very consistent, 10 shots into .58 4064 3459 fps Sd 24 Es 54 Group was ok till I had a flyer. 4 shots into.7 last shot was the highest velocity at 3488 and hit high on the target opening up the group to 1" Ill probably stick with the varget, the groups have been very consistent. I'm going to work on some seating depth and see if I can get the sd and es downwind tighten up the groups.

August 31, 2012, 09:09 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	1stmar, It looks like your lot of IMR4064 is almost 4% slower than the one used for the numbers in the QL database. It's possible for that to happen, as the specs allow a 6% span in burn rate (±3%). Based on the actual velocity you got with your lot, it looks like the load would need to be adjusted up to 35.0 grains for your lot to hit the target barrel time. Still under the maximums listed by Hodgdon, which, with your bullet, would be around 36.6 or 36.7 grains, interpolating their 52 and 55 grain bullet data to 53 grains. It looks like your Varget load would come down to 34.8 grains to match the 2230 load barrel time. The velocity then drops to 3527 fps, though. Varget burns early and isn't a velocity powder normally. Anyway, a couple more things to try. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 31, 2012, 09:12 PM	#11
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Thanks unclenick, Ill give those a try...