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June 18, 2009, 10:38 AM | #26 |
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The lack of basic human compassion was traded off for the defense of CYA police officers, who didn't even have the wisdom or experience to articulate a proper reason for failing to act. 'We don't have the tools' amounts to 'the dog ate my homework'.
Shouldn't there be SOME means for a welfare check in such a circumstance? For example, what if a police officer in the location of the husband were to verify his ID and call it in? How long could that take? If I, as a civilian, in 5 seconds, can think of a way to verify the gentlemen's identity, why is that so insurmountable for LE professionals? Let me ask all of you, including the OP, If YOUR pregnant wife, who you knew to be 100 percent reliable and prompt for doctors appointments, missed an appointment while you were 4 hours away, and was unable to be reached by phone, what would you want or expect the police to do? OH wait, they would take your word for it, because YOU have a BADGE. Put yourself in this man's position for two seconds. Is walking away really the responsible thing to do? Is it REALLY the only option, drive away and don't look back? |
June 18, 2009, 11:01 AM | #27 | ||
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; June 18, 2009 at 11:13 AM. |
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June 18, 2009, 11:46 AM | #28 | ||||
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There is a way to get all this done but depending on calls for service (this is not an known emergency) it might take just as long as it took him to drive home. He could have called an officer from the PD where he worked to his office and shown him his ID that had his home address on it. Failing that he could have used the company's records to establish that he DID live there. Then that officer could have his station call the PD where he lived, where his wife was and then he could have given permission. Quote:
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June 18, 2009, 02:35 PM | #29 |
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"If YOUR pregnant wife, who you knew to be 100 percent reliable and prompt for doctors appointments, missed an appointment while you were 4 hours away, and was unable to be reached by phone, what would you want or expect the police to do? "
Search every hospital emergency room; every ditch and waterway between the house and the doctor's office; every Wal-Mart pharmacy; and every doc in a box clinic; and put out a freaking apb you know. Well, you asked. I mean, really, what evidence is there that my wife is at home and the police (coppers to those of you stuck in the 19th century or somewhere else) need to kick the door in. John |
June 18, 2009, 03:37 PM | #30 |
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Did the dispatcher err in sending only police officers, without EMS/rescue people?
I understand the reluctance of police to break down doors on the basis of a telephone call, but the situation was that a man was concerned about his pregnant wife not responding, possibly for quite a period of time (not entirely clear from the article). The comparison to someone missing a lunch date or not answering a phone call may not be entirely apt; there was at least some reason to be concerned about a medical problem, and it turned out that those concerns were justified (with, admittedly, 20-20 hindsight). Can someone educate us civilians about what tools that EMS/rescue people have and use to enter locked buildings? |
June 18, 2009, 04:17 PM | #31 | |
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How did the wife take a calculated risk? By getting pregnant? Look, we all know that LEs have a really tough job and that they are abused for both doing and not doing. But aren't they supposed to investigate? Are there only 2 options - clicking out and busting down the door - in a situation like this? Maybe the abuse level would go down just a tad if more LEs tried just a little harder to actually help the people who employ them. |
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June 18, 2009, 05:29 PM | #32 | |||||
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Pain is generally a good indicator that the body perceives something is not as it should be. My bad. I would think this would qualify her as having a medical need. But this is only my opinion. Quote:
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I will ask the same question of you that I asked in an earlier post ; Do you really want it that easy to get a door kicked in ? Easy enough that I could call from right here and say " I'm Dustmonkey's Brother, (of course, I'm not) he is not answering the phone and I think he might be in the midst of a medical emergency could you swing by and kick in the door to check" ? It is a simple choice, either you want the protections the law offers against an unlawful forced entry into your home, or you do not.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; June 18, 2009 at 05:40 PM. |
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June 18, 2009, 06:23 PM | #33 | |
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The above exemplifies my initial reaction. Just what was this husband thinking? OuTcAsT, what I've found is that people read what they want to read. Just like they hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see. When it comes to the police, some only see the bad. Facts, be damned. |
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June 18, 2009, 07:29 PM | #34 | |
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June 18, 2009, 09:36 PM | #35 |
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Antipitas,
You are, of course, correct.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
June 19, 2009, 07:12 AM | #36 |
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I'm with Antipitas, Outcast. You're talking to a brick wall it seems. The fact remains they had no legal authority or duty to enter. That's not your opinion... it is a fact... and people will still argue.
The very same people who cry out about their civil rights being violated are the ones who want the police to be "proactive." The truth is you don't want the police you think you want. If you lived in a country that was not free, the police would have the authority to kick in any door they want. It does indeed cut both ways. Outcast also hit the nail on the head with his statements about their friends and family. Safety and welfare is a community problem (of which the police are a part), not just a police problem. I think the ones crying out simply may not know how common the welfare check call is answered. They are split to three types of welfare checks: A) The caller just can't reach the person, B) The caller wants to harass the person or C) Various other BS. |
June 19, 2009, 09:10 AM | #37 | |
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There didn't seem to be any reluctance on the part of the police to break down the door, only that they were too whimpy to do so without tools. Yes, I read the posts saying the dispatcher probably lied rather than just say, "They can't legally do that, sir", but I'm not buying it. Are dispatchers trained to just make stuff up rather than stating the simple truth? And while police don't generally break down the door of the wrong address, they do break down doors and perform raids on the basis of anonymous tips, so the idea that they couldn't break down the door on the say so of the victim's husband, is a little silly. |
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June 19, 2009, 09:24 AM | #38 | ||||||
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June 20, 2009, 11:59 AM | #39 | |||
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For everyone who wanted the Police to kick in the door and save the day PM me your address and I will have the Police come to your home at 0 dark thirty, kick in your door and get you medical assistance. Why couldn't the husband called a friend or family member to handle the situation? He could've broken every window or door LEGALLY. Last edited by Wagonman; June 20, 2009 at 12:12 PM. |
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June 20, 2009, 12:59 PM | #40 | |
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Now there's a sensible question
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June 20, 2009, 03:03 PM | #41 | |
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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June 20, 2009, 03:45 PM | #42 |
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Outcast and Antipitas,
Regarding "calculated risk" - Sorry, I was referring to a later news posting than the one presented in this thread that said that the wife had a seizure which caused her black-out and the birth - no mention that she had any history of seizures. Could this have been anticipated? You decide. I don't think we have enough information to place al blame on the wife or husband. Regarding other investigation options - How about contacting the landlord (who has the legal authority to enter the apartment) to come and inspect the apartment. Not illegal and no lawsuit, just a little extra effort and time. If LEs only look for evidence of a crime, why weren't emt's called or also called to the site? I am not accusing the LEs or anyone else of any wrong doing, just suggesting that an outcome could have been different by using some other approaches. |
June 20, 2009, 04:37 PM | #43 | ||||
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I don't feel it unreasonable to think that they should have sought immediate medical attention, or at the least, the husband should have kept her under observation until the appointment, either directly, or through friends or family. Quote:
Now, Had the Husband called the landlord, and requested that he enter, that could likely have been done. The police, however, do not have the authority to make such a request. it would be the same as kicking the door. Quote:
As an EMT, I can tell you that there is no evidence that I could find, that a cop would not also recognize as a sign of trouble. (Incidentally, lots of, if not most, LEO's are cross trained as medical first responders, EMTs or Paramedics. Sorry to tell you, but this was not a failure of LE, to do their job. It is a failure of people taking personal responsibility for their own well being.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; June 20, 2009 at 04:42 PM. |
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June 20, 2009, 11:00 PM | #44 |
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Outcast you are absolutely right on all points except for "lots of" or "most" LEOs also being EMTs. This is pretty rare in most areas.
I would say "some" are, but not "most" or even "lots." Your description of what is done on a welfare check is pretty much dead-on, and echoes what Wagonman posted they usually entail. Without something to arouse suspicion, the job is done. And to answer the repeated point that will be raised: No, the dude on the phone does not arouse suspicion that something is going on. In fact in the same situation, my first guess would be this is her estranged husband trying to harass or control. That's just my personal opinion though. Your last sentence is the end-all. Some people cannot and will not ever understand that because of the civil rights they hold so dear, some problems become solely theirs. |
June 21, 2009, 10:10 AM | #45 | ||
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Thanks for clearing that up, I will tell you that it is becoming increasingly popular in my particular area, due to the rapid growth of population in my, and surrounding, counties. Cross-training LEOs as Firefighters, and EMTs maximizes the manpower available for large scale situations, and, since LE is typically the first on the scene of car crashes, fights, and DV incidents, a trusted logistical assessment can be made before other assets start to roll. It is also a win-win in the case of a fire fight, as an officer down can begin to receive medical care before EMTs could even enter the scene. You may start to see this trend in your area, as budgets for personnel get smaller but, the population does not. Quote:
I don't think it's any surprise that I prefer my rights to stay intact, and will see to the well-being of my own family as required. Stay Safe !
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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June 21, 2009, 05:22 PM | #46 | ||||
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Outcast,
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June 21, 2009, 05:53 PM | #47 | |||
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A quick lesson on Landlord/Tenant law, why would you think this law has this remedy;
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IE Fire/Flood. These laws tend to favor the privacy of the tenant over the right of inspection by a landlord. In other words, If you don't want your landlord to have access to your apartment, he must sue to get it. (or set it on fire) Quote:
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what "more investigation" could be done within the law? Understand that, as far as the police are concerned, all they have is, what amounts to an anonymous call that something may (speculation on the husband's part) be wrong, in what appears to be a possibly empty (nobody home) apartment. What would you have the police, firefighters, ems, do ?
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; June 21, 2009 at 06:03 PM. |
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June 21, 2009, 06:36 PM | #48 | ||||
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FTD quotes from the VRLTA and then writes this;
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June 21, 2009, 06:53 PM | #49 | ||||
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Injunctive relief -
The same applies to the tenant, as previously quoted from section 55-248.10:1. So what? My point is that this act does not specify criminal penalties. Please note the terms "unreasonable" and "repeated". Quote:
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I have found no additional references to your contentions concerning "typically frowned upon" or "catastrophic incident. IE Fire/Flood". Could these be from policy manuals instead of law or court reviews? Quote:
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June 21, 2009, 07:01 PM | #50 |
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The problem stated in the article was that they didn't have the tools to break down a door. That's silly. Any reasonably resourceful person can break most doors.
That could be wrong information in the article, and the discussion here is about whether or not to break a door because someone on the phone asked you to do so. I can't blame a cop for not doing that, but how hard would it be to identify the person on the phone in less than four hours? Have him drive to the nearest police station and identify himself and place the call from there with a bunch of cops present. |
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