New Smith & Wesson 67 - Two issues - Can you help?

n1as · February 7, 2016, 11:46 PM

Greetings folks,

A couple of weeks ago I bought a brand new S&W 67-6 .38 special. Took it to the range this weekend and was a bit disappointed. The two issues I had were sight adjustment and accuracy.

The gun is shooting quite a bit to the left. I had to adjust the rear blade to the right enough that the edge of the blade is flush with the adjusting screw.
Five shot groups at 20 yds were in the realm of 4-6", shooting with my wrists rested on a bag. I tried two types of low-cost plinking grade Remington ammo (158 grain lead, 135 grain copper fmj) with the same basic issues with both.

All my shooting was in SA mode.

I'm pretty new to hand guns and new to revolvers so I'm part of the problem. I have been dry fire practicing and focusing on keeping the sights aligned while I pull the trigger.

g.willikers · February 8, 2016, 09:58 AM

Most shooting problems, especially with handguns, are more about the shooter than the gun.
Proper instruction is a must to figure out what's wrong.
It's very easy to mess up, even when using bag and bench, with improper technique.
And very difficult to cure on one's own.
The next time you go to the range with this revolver, ask someone else, who is obviously a good shot, to try it.
That will at least tell you whether it's the gun or not.

SaxonPig · February 8, 2016, 10:02 AM

I always shoot to the left, too. May be the way one grips the gun or how the trigger finger is applying pressure.

As for accuracy, 4-6" at 20 yards is about all I can manage on an average day. Some guys shoot a lot and or have natural talent and can do much better. But I suspect if most of us mere mortals were honest "one hole groups" are the exception and not the norm.

Remember, this is the first time you've shot a new gun. You both may need a break in period. Also, cheap range ammo won't deliver top accuracy. You need to start reloading so you can tinker with the loads until you find one the gun likes. Most guns have a preference.

robert1804 · February 8, 2016, 10:51 AM

I bought a new Model 67 about 6 months ago. Ship date is 3/15/15. It shot to the left and needed the sight blade adjusted all the way to the right to get on target. I called S&W costumer service about it. The rep gave me a return label. S&W repaired my gun and had it back to me in 11 days. The sight blade is now perfectly centered and on target. Accuracy with what factory ammo I've tried in it was 2-3" groups with the gun rested at 25 yards. Hand loads with XTP's in 125 and 140gr are much better.

pilpens · February 8, 2016, 12:00 PM

The good thing is that S&W customer service is very good.
Give S&W a call first (like robert1840's case).

K_Mac · February 8, 2016, 12:41 PM

I would get another opinion from someone who is an experienced shooter. This will identify the problem. As already said, if it is the revolver S&W will make it right. Good luck.

ScaryWoody · February 8, 2016, 01:01 PM

Here's a couple of YouTubes on revolver grip technique

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEHNZFTfSD8

and sight alignment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrFL-JCDwCI

It also may be that your barrel is canted. This happens every so often. The barrel when it is fitted to the frame is not perfectly straight. This would be a factory repair issue.

salvadore · February 8, 2016, 04:46 PM

I shoot one shot one hole groups regularly, and S&W does have excellent customer service.

n1as · February 8, 2016, 05:04 PM

Thanks all. I'll be back at the range in the next week or two and will do some more testing to refine my data.

I also have a Buck Mark and will see if my groups are equally bad with that.

At home I shoot my pellet pistol (with red dot) enough that I feel comfortable with pistol grip & trigger techniques. I'll have to dig it out this week and shoot some targets to see what my group size is at 9 yds with that gun.

Then I should take the red dot off and see what happens. I suppose part of my issue could be less than ideal eyesight & sight picture.

Skeets · February 8, 2016, 09:14 PM

I'm sure the excellent info you received in the replies will be very helpful to you.Be sure to take your proven,GOOD shooter friend,and QUALITY
AMMO.Relax,enjoy,stay safe. Skeets

Nick_C_S · February 8, 2016, 10:09 PM

Quote:

The next time you go to the range with this revolver, ask someone else, who is obviously a good shot, to try it.

Might be easier said than done. Especially with revolvers. I'm at my range frequently. I'd say I've seen about 3 or 4 people who are what I'd call a truly "good shot." And they are all with semi-auto's.

Then there's one guy who's good with a revolver. And that'd be me

But to be a little more focused here - Smith revolvers are generally very accurate. I have a model 67-5 that I bought new not quite two years ago, and it's extremely accurate. It's my competition gun and I love it.

About the rear sight blade being moved over to one side to get it to shoot straight: My new model 629 Classic (5") is that way. I bought it earlier this year and the blade is slightly off center (not as much as you describe, though) to shoot straight. I find it odd too. Either the barrel isn't bored exactly parallel with the outside dimensions, or the front sight is a little off (more likely). Anyway, once I got it sighted in, it shoots good n straight.

None the less, it would be a good idea to let someone else shoot it. I've never known a Smith revolver to not shoot consistent tight groups - and I own eight of them.

n1as · February 8, 2016, 11:32 PM

Well I shot my air pistol quite a bit tonight. I was consistently printing 3/8 ctc groups offhand at 9 yards - with a red dot sight. That was after I adjusted my trigger pull to not throe shots to the left.

rodfac · February 13, 2016, 09:45 AM

Ability with an airgun sporting a red dot sight will not equate to a similar level of ability with a center fire hand gun over iron sights. The there are several components to shooting a comparatively heavy recoil hand gun that are not evident with a non-recoiling air gun.

Grip strength is one of the factors...it must be consistent, shot to shot, to produce good 5-6 shot groups on target. With 40+ years of bullseye competition behind me, I can move my groups, left and right, up and down at will by varying the strength and placement of my grip on the stocks. Too, if you vary the grip, position or strength, from shot to shot, you'll see your groups open up.

Squeezing a tennis ball or grip exerciser will give you a stronger, more consistent grip on the stocks. Most good competitive shots of my experience grip the gun strongly. When teaching proper grip, I demonstrate using a strong but not crippling handshake....like one you'd use to greet an old friend after decades of separation. For me, it's just short of one producing a tremor as I hold the gun. It ensures that my grip is as uniform as possible. A light grip just doesn't work.

Anticipating the shot, flinching, will also open your groups. One way to find out if you're inadvertently flinching, albeit just a little, is to load only one chamber, then spin the cylinder and close it without noting where the cartridge is located. Any dipping of the front sight or sideways movement in the sights as the hammer falls, indicates you have a flinching problem. Extensive dry fire, done correctly, is the cure.

Sight alignment is equally important. You MUST focus entirely on the FRONT sight completely and 100% while aligning your sights. The target and rear sight will be blurred if you are doing it correctly. Any other sight picture, other than a perfectly in focus front sight, will open your groups. One practice method to improve your concentration on the front sight is to mark it with a soft lead pencil. If you can see that mark while sighting, you are correctly focusing on the front sight.

Trigger manipulation is another factor, equal to the others. The required movement is straight to the rear. Allowing any push to one side or the other will result in a shot out of the group. Any jerking of the trigger will disturb the natural wobble area and the shot will go wide. Try using a straight back, continuous movement as you hold, allowing your natural wobble area to take over. Most people can hold that figure 8 wobble area on the target; your job is to trip the trigger without disturbing it. A straight back, uninterrupted pull will accomplish that. Any attempt to pull the trigger "when the sights are dead on" usually results in a wide shot. It's a 3# trigger pull vs. a gun that weighs just about the same....you'll move the gun before the hammer falls. Your goal while dry firing is to see no observable movement in sight alignment as the hammer falls. The front sight perfectly level with the rear sight blade top and an equal amount of light on either side in the notch.

Practice dry firing, with a dime balanced on the front sight or barrel rib. This will force you to slowly, steadily pull the trigger without disturbing the sights.

As you progress in skill, you'll see your wobble area diminish, and your trigger manipulation smooth out. Speed comes with practice, but only if you practice correctly. Multiple shots without bringing the gun hand down just tires you out. Try one shot at a time. Remember that your sight, as you hold your breath during the shot, begins to degrade after 7-10 seconds. Holding beyond that time limit, allows a diminished sight picture...the front sight, perfectly in focus.

HTH's Rod

rodfac · February 13, 2016, 10:01 AM

As to the quality of your new Smith...I'd not worry about the rear sight being well to the right to center your groups. I'd shoot it a bunch, and see if it's your technique rather than the gun that's the problem. You don't want to move that barrel prematurely as your skill improves. Smith will make it right if it's the gun. Their customer service is great in my experience.

pnac · February 13, 2016, 05:23 PM

Shoot from a rest at a short distance, 7 yards or so, using the same point of aim. That should tell you if the problem is you or the gun. An over tightened or under tightened barrel is a fairly common problem.

I guess I ought to add that the barrel is just threaded into the frame, over or under tightening the barrel causes the front sight and rear sight to be miss-aligned. Threads are a crush fit and the barrel tightens against a shoulder, so under tightening is more likely resulting in sight miss-alignment causing the gun to shoot left.
Smith used to pin the barrels for a reason but that was discontinued in the '70s. I've seen 629s off so bad you could see it at the ejector rod shield to frame alignment.
Anyway, send it back to factory or take it to a gunsmith if it turns out to be a problem with the gun.

February 7, 2016, 11:46 PM	#1
n1as Junior Member Join Date: February 6, 2016 Posts: 3	New Smith & Wesson 67 - Two issues - Can you help? Greetings folks, A couple of weeks ago I bought a brand new S&W 67-6 .38 special. Took it to the range this weekend and was a bit disappointed. The two issues I had were sight adjustment and accuracy. The gun is shooting quite a bit to the left. I had to adjust the rear blade to the right enough that the edge of the blade is flush with the adjusting screw. Five shot groups at 20 yds were in the realm of 4-6", shooting with my wrists rested on a bag. I tried two types of low-cost plinking grade Remington ammo (158 grain lead, 135 grain copper fmj) with the same basic issues with both. All my shooting was in SA mode. I'm pretty new to hand guns and new to revolvers so I'm part of the problem. I have been dry fire practicing and focusing on keeping the sights aligned while I pull the trigger.

February 8, 2016, 09:58 AM	#2
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Most shooting problems, especially with handguns, are more about the shooter than the gun. Proper instruction is a must to figure out what's wrong. It's very easy to mess up, even when using bag and bench, with improper technique. And very difficult to cure on one's own. The next time you go to the range with this revolver, ask someone else, who is obviously a good shot, to try it. That will at least tell you whether it's the gun or not. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” Last edited by g.willikers; February 8, 2016 at 10:06 AM.

February 8, 2016, 10:51 AM	#4
robert1804 Member Join Date: May 5, 2015 Posts: 53	I bought a new Model 67 about 6 months ago. Ship date is 3/15/15. It shot to the left and needed the sight blade adjusted all the way to the right to get on target. I called S&W costumer service about it. The rep gave me a return label. S&W repaired my gun and had it back to me in 11 days. The sight blade is now perfectly centered and on target. Accuracy with what factory ammo I've tried in it was 2-3" groups with the gun rested at 25 yards. Hand loads with XTP's in 125 and 140gr are much better. __________________ They'll have to pry my Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator from my cold dead gripping appendages.

February 8, 2016, 12:41 PM	#6
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	I would get another opinion from someone who is an experienced shooter. This will identify the problem. As already said, if it is the revolver S&W will make it right. Good luck. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

February 8, 2016, 05:04 PM	#9
n1as Junior Member Join Date: February 6, 2016 Posts: 3	Thanks! Thanks all. I'll be back at the range in the next week or two and will do some more testing to refine my data. I also have a Buck Mark and will see if my groups are equally bad with that. At home I shoot my pellet pistol (with red dot) enough that I feel comfortable with pistol grip & trigger techniques. I'll have to dig it out this week and shoot some targets to see what my group size is at 9 yds with that gun. Then I should take the red dot off and see what happens. I suppose part of my issue could be less than ideal eyesight & sight picture.

February 8, 2016, 10:02 AM	#3
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	I always shoot to the left, too. May be the way one grips the gun or how the trigger finger is applying pressure. As for accuracy, 4-6" at 20 yards is about all I can manage on an average day. Some guys shoot a lot and or have natural talent and can do much better. But I suspect if most of us mere mortals were honest "one hole groups" are the exception and not the norm. Remember, this is the first time you've shot a new gun. You both may need a break in period. Also, cheap range ammo won't deliver top accuracy. You need to start reloading so you can tinker with the loads until you find one the gun likes. Most guns have a preference.

February 8, 2016, 12:00 PM	#5
pilpens Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,696	The good thing is that S&W customer service is very good. Give S&W a call first (like robert1840's case).

February 8, 2016, 01:01 PM	#7
ScaryWoody Senior Member Join Date: September 4, 2004 Location: Atlanta Posts: 368	Here's a couple of YouTubes on revolver grip technique https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEHNZFTfSD8 and sight alignment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrFL-JCDwCI It also may be that your barrel is canted. This happens every so often. The barrel when it is fitted to the frame is not perfectly straight. This would be a factory repair issue.

February 8, 2016, 04:46 PM	#8
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	I shoot one shot one hole groups regularly, and S&W does have excellent customer service.

February 8, 2016, 09:14 PM	#10
Skeets Member in memoriam Join Date: April 6, 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 583	S&W 67-Two issues I'm sure the excellent info you received in the replies will be very helpful to you.Be sure to take your proven,GOOD shooter friend,and QUALITY AMMO.Relax,enjoy,stay safe. Skeets __________________ Skeets "Over Kill Never Fails"

February 8, 2016, 11:32 PM	#12
n1as Junior Member Join Date: February 6, 2016 Posts: 3	Well I shot my air pistol quite a bit tonight. I was consistently printing 3/8 ctc groups offhand at 9 yards - with a red dot sight. That was after I adjusted my trigger pull to not throe shots to the left.

February 13, 2016, 09:45 AM	#13
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,624	Ability with an airgun sporting a red dot sight will not equate to a similar level of ability with a center fire hand gun over iron sights. The there are several components to shooting a comparatively heavy recoil hand gun that are not evident with a non-recoiling air gun. Grip strength is one of the factors...it must be consistent, shot to shot, to produce good 5-6 shot groups on target. With 40+ years of bullseye competition behind me, I can move my groups, left and right, up and down at will by varying the strength and placement of my grip on the stocks. Too, if you vary the grip, position or strength, from shot to shot, you'll see your groups open up. Squeezing a tennis ball or grip exerciser will give you a stronger, more consistent grip on the stocks. Most good competitive shots of my experience grip the gun strongly. When teaching proper grip, I demonstrate using a strong but not crippling handshake....like one you'd use to greet an old friend after decades of separation. For me, it's just short of one producing a tremor as I hold the gun. It ensures that my grip is as uniform as possible. A light grip just doesn't work. Anticipating the shot, flinching, will also open your groups. One way to find out if you're inadvertently flinching, albeit just a little, is to load only one chamber, then spin the cylinder and close it without noting where the cartridge is located. Any dipping of the front sight or sideways movement in the sights as the hammer falls, indicates you have a flinching problem. Extensive dry fire, done correctly, is the cure. Sight alignment is equally important. You MUST focus entirely on the FRONT sight completely and 100% while aligning your sights. The target and rear sight will be blurred if you are doing it correctly. Any other sight picture, other than a perfectly in focus front sight, will open your groups. One practice method to improve your concentration on the front sight is to mark it with a soft lead pencil. If you can see that mark while sighting, you are correctly focusing on the front sight. Trigger manipulation is another factor, equal to the others. The required movement is straight to the rear. Allowing any push to one side or the other will result in a shot out of the group. Any jerking of the trigger will disturb the natural wobble area and the shot will go wide. Try using a straight back, continuous movement as you hold, allowing your natural wobble area to take over. Most people can hold that figure 8 wobble area on the target; your job is to trip the trigger without disturbing it. A straight back, uninterrupted pull will accomplish that. Any attempt to pull the trigger "when the sights are dead on" usually results in a wide shot. It's a 3# trigger pull vs. a gun that weighs just about the same....you'll move the gun before the hammer falls. Your goal while dry firing is to see no observable movement in sight alignment as the hammer falls. The front sight perfectly level with the rear sight blade top and an equal amount of light on either side in the notch. Practice dry firing, with a dime balanced on the front sight or barrel rib. This will force you to slowly, steadily pull the trigger without disturbing the sights. As you progress in skill, you'll see your wobble area diminish, and your trigger manipulation smooth out. Speed comes with practice, but only if you practice correctly. Multiple shots without bringing the gun hand down just tires you out. Try one shot at a time. Remember that your sight, as you hold your breath during the shot, begins to degrade after 7-10 seconds. Holding beyond that time limit, allows a diminished sight picture...the front sight, perfectly in focus. HTH's Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. Last edited by rodfac; February 13, 2016 at 10:03 AM.

February 13, 2016, 10:01 AM	#14
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,624	As to the quality of your new Smith...I'd not worry about the rear sight being well to the right to center your groups. I'd shoot it a bunch, and see if it's your technique rather than the gun that's the problem. You don't want to move that barrel prematurely as your skill improves. Smith will make it right if it's the gun. Their customer service is great in my experience. __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

February 13, 2016, 05:23 PM	#15
pnac Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2008 Posts: 550	Shoot from a rest at a short distance, 7 yards or so, using the same point of aim. That should tell you if the problem is you or the gun. An over tightened or under tightened barrel is a fairly common problem. I guess I ought to add that the barrel is just threaded into the frame, over or under tightening the barrel causes the front sight and rear sight to be miss-aligned. Threads are a crush fit and the barrel tightens against a shoulder, so under tightening is more likely resulting in sight miss-alignment causing the gun to shoot left. Smith used to pin the barrels for a reason but that was discontinued in the '70s. I've seen 629s off so bad you could see it at the ejector rod shield to frame alignment. Anyway, send it back to factory or take it to a gunsmith if it turns out to be a problem with the gun. __________________ In my hour of darkness In my time of need Oh Lord grant me vision Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons Last edited by pnac; February 14, 2016 at 12:26 AM.