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Old July 29, 2013, 11:41 AM   #51
buck460XVR
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Originally posted by Sarge: I am against it for reasons detailed here.

Missouri's 'Antler Point' Restriction
First, APR stacks the odds against novice hunters- and as a father and husband who's been in on a number of 'first deer' I can tell you that these hunters need all the help they can get. Many of these are kids, out with Dad or Uncle Fred for their first deer hunt. Under the 'old rules' they'd see maybe 1-5 shootable deer per season; and they might get a safe, sure shot at only one of those. They are thrilled to get any deer at all and even a forkhorn buck is a big deal to them. APR deprives this vitally-important group of opportunities. New hunters are quite literally the future of hunting and the last thing we need is to discourage them.


3 paragraphs above this statement you state that the APR does not apply to the youth portion of the season. This not only gives youth hunters the opportunity to take a non APR buck that other hunters cannot, but a trophy as well. Most places where APRs are in effect there are also liberal doe tags, again, giving the first time/youth hunter a good chance of success. Unlike many think, after the first year or two of implementation, APRs do not lessen the amount of bucks available for harvest. Those deer available for harvest are just older, thus smarter and for some harder to get. One reason first time hunters and youth generally get a pass.

Second, APR is a slap in the face to 'traditional hunters' who use iron-sighted .30-30's, military rifles and period firearms from 1830 forward. Folks, this is deer hunting at its finest and it is the essence of hunting in general. APR essentially requires that the traditional hunter adds a substantial set of binoculars to his kit; and spend more time 'glassing' than enjoying the nostalgia of the traditional hunt.

This is bull. Most of us that shoot primitive weapons do so for the challenge of the hunt. If we wanted to shoot high volumes of small deer, we'd use scoped high powered rifles like most everyone else. Last deer season I shot a doe with my handgun. She was standing next to a small 9 point buck. Did not need binos to tell me how many points he had nor did I need a book to tell me he was only 1 1/2 year old. I let him walk altho he was the easier shot, mainly because she was the better eatin' of the two and I hoped he'd make til this year. Neighbor shot him the next day. Not a big deal....he probably would have been legal under most APRs anyway. Bow hunters are some of the most selective deer hunters in the woods. At bow ranges, we do not need high priced binos to tell us how big the rack is. Most bucks I see during bow season that are within range give me plenty of time to check out the size of their rack. That is what the "nostalgia" of bow hunting is all about. Last buck I shot was with a handgun @ 25 yards. I could tell when he was layin' in his bed, without the use of any optics, he was a 8 with about a 16'' spread. After the shot, he still had the same rack. The range limits of traditional weapons do not require any special "substantial" set of binos, what was used before, if any, is just fine. What one does need to do, is to take that extra moment to make sure the deer is legal. No different than trying to "grow" spikes on the baldy standing in front of you now.


My final complaint with APR is that it promotes the notion that deer hunting is all about 'points and trophies' rather than harvesting the winter meat.


Again......APRs are generally tied in with liberal doe/antlerless tags. A doe is always better eatin' than a young stinky buck. APRs while giving one more opportunity to shoot a trophy, also gives one the opportunity to SEE more bucks, because the young bucks that run and run during hunting season are not shot off the first day. This notion that one must shoot something with horn, any horn instead of a baldy is the macho-ism that brough about poor herd health and unbalanced ratios in the first place.

I did not touch on all you arguments because many of the others had to do with deer numbers.....again something that most management plans that use APRs consider. Numbers do need to be controlled to limit car/deer collision and crop/ornamentals damage. APRs do not increase the deer herd, in most cases just the opposite. What they do change is the profile and make-up of the herd.

In my little corner of west central MO, we have definitely seen more protected bucks hit since APR spread south.

In your blog, you allude that APR contributes to more deer/car collisions because hunters don't take the small bucks. Now you are saying that it contributes to more deer/car collisions because there are more large bucks. Maybe you are just seeing more bucks in general hit than before because the buck/doe ratio is better balanced than before. Have overall deer/car collisions increased in areas where APRs are implemented or is it just more bucks are gettin' hit in those areas? One says the herd is bigger, the other says there are just more bucks in the herd.
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Old July 29, 2013, 03:21 PM   #52
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Buck-

Not all novice hunters are youth hunters and the youth portion is but a fraction of the season.

Prior to this APR, traditional hunters could take any deer throughout the season, if they had the appropriate tag.

APR does promote the notion that deer hunting is about 'points and trophies'. The promise of bigger bucks 'someday' is invariably used when trying to sell it to hunters.

What I said about car/deer accidents is pretty clear.

Finally, I do not expect that everyone is going to agree with my position on APR. The last thing I'm interested in is arguing about it. You have your opinion and I have mine, which is offered free of charge. Don't leave any money in the can if you disagree.
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Old July 29, 2013, 04:16 PM   #53
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Old habits die hard. I grew up in Cali. No Does and Bucks had to be fork horn or better. I doubt that those requirements have changed much since I left. BTW.....eyeguards dont count.
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Old July 29, 2013, 04:27 PM   #54
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Exactly right Buck. I are and am a traditional hunter myself. And yes it has Nothing to do with points, rack size , etc.
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Old July 29, 2013, 06:32 PM   #55
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On our farms we are seeing more and bigger bucks BUT I also agree that killing the top end of the bucks allows the small racked, but mature bucks to propagate which is counter to my best interests. We intentionally kill quite a few mature but smaller racked 8 pointers. I allow myself to kill a bigger buck every couple of years.
I just want to see more liberal landowner permits and a wider set of options as to what and how landowners can use their tags.
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Old July 29, 2013, 06:42 PM   #56
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Keg, antler restrictions do not lead to huge bucks being grown. Common sense harvesting is what leads to trophy bucks. We harvest huge deer for our area. There are about 1000 acres that me and the neighbors have. We all hunt the same way. We do not shoot young bucks. We do not shoot immature bucks. We shoot mature bucks that have poor genetics. An old spike, 4 point, or 6 point is going to be eliminated. An 8? Not until he gets very old.
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Old July 29, 2013, 08:04 PM   #57
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Keg, antler restrictions do not lead to huge bucks being grown. Common sense harvesting is what leads to trophy bucks. We harvest huge deer for our area. There are about 1000 acres that me and the neighbors have. We all hunt the same way. We do not shoot young bucks. We do not shoot immature bucks. We shoot mature bucks that have poor genetics. An old spike, 4 point, or 6 point is going to be eliminated. An 8? Not until he gets very old.
I never said huge bucks...I said mature bucks...BUT!....a young buck will never be a huge buck...He has to grow and mature first...AR's help get him there....
Show me some pics of old spikes..4's..or 6's..that yall have harvested....Post the pics on here....
We don't have em cause we don't see any(I do remember one old fork horn a long time ago..but he had worn out teeth and had been on decline..and 2 narrow width bucks over a 20 year span and on several thousand acres..not enough to be concerned about)....Every buck we harvest is aged..many by wildlife biologists(they check them opening weekend)....
I will say..that since U and your neighbors already manage the herd..U are less affected by AR's....Antler restrictions help more where there is no management practices..where folks shoot the first buck with horns....
Not everyone is into "common sense harvesting" as U say..but with restrictions..they will think about it before they pull on a young buck....
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Old July 29, 2013, 08:14 PM   #58
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Why would I take a picture of a spike, 4, or 6 point?
Bucks with bad genetics need to be eliminated. A.R. protects bad genetics.
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Old July 29, 2013, 08:44 PM   #59
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What's wrong with these laws is, if the deer hasn't grown at least 4 points on each side by the time he's 2.5 years old, he will probably never reach that threshold. So he gets a free pass to live and spread his crappy genes.

The only way to properly manage a deer herd and get big bucks is to be able to estimate the approximate age of the deer by looking at it and culling the older bucks with small racks and let the young bucks that actually CAN grow decent antlers live till they reach maturity. A buck usually "peaks" around 4.5 or 5.5 years and during that time he can breed and make several sons just like him. But if the deer with good genes are taken out of the herd before they reach maturity and the cull deer keep living and making more cull deer, then it doesn't take long until you have NO deer with good genes and NO big bucks.

This type of management is easier said than done if you have less than about 500 acres to yourself to hunt. Because even if you know how to manage the herd it doesn't mean your neighbor will.

It's a problem with no solution unless several hunters in a several hundred acre radius agree to work together on it.
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Old July 29, 2013, 10:13 PM   #60
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points

I'm with hogdogs, I'm not so sure that letting scrub bucks age is a positive step towards trophy racks.

And I don't like the idea of the state stepping into my stand any further and requiring me to count points. Alabama WMA's, of which 1 I live very close to and hunt often, has a point count and nobody asked me about it, though the state alleges they sent out a survey.

At the check station where I frequent during the gun hunts ( I usually bow hunt the WMA) you simply see an age class wiped out, 2-3 yr old 6 points,with an occasional excellent buck. And lots of does, as we have either sex hunts.

The state puts little money into enhancing their lands, private clubs adjacent feed and manage lands heavily, and draw many deer off the state property in years of poor mast. The WMA hunters shackled with the points count rule don't see deer, and the club hunters do.

Seems all backwards to me.
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Old July 29, 2013, 11:45 PM   #61
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Where I hunt deer, our gang has been practicing what we call HERD MANAGEMENT. If you want meat shoot dry does,spikes and forks,leave the basket racks alone. If you want to shoot a buck it should be larger than anything you have ever shot. My biggest buck is 156, so I have to wait for the 160 class to show up. The club advocates VOLUNTARY RESTRAINT. We are in farm country and our gang is made up of neighbors who have hunted together for 5 generations. We control about 3000 acres , and in the midst of it is a public hunting area.
The other neighbors and hunting gangs saw the success we were having and started to use the idea. This morphed into a deer hunting club of sorts. We get together in the winter and have a coyote hunting contest with 3 cash prizes.
During the rifle season we don't have a big buck contest. We only have a big doe contest. The entry fee is $25 , $20 goes to the contest and $5 dollars goes to the annual hunter banquet. entry fees for hunters under 17 years old are paid by the club and they pay $5 at the banquet only if they attend. There are 5 cash prizes for the big doe contest and 2 cash prizes of $50 for the 2 youngest hunters who shot a deer for that year, buck or doe.
For the experienced hunters if you shoot a buck you get disqualified from the big doe contest. There is an average of over 70 entries in the contest. The prize money is split between the hunter and the landowner 50/50.
After the season is over we have a hunters banquet. Wives and families are invited and charged $5 a head at the door, under 6 free. Those who got nice deer generally bring their horns to show off. Deer stories old and new are told and a couple members are musicians so there is good music. We have door prizes donated and several gun raffles and good times had by all. Some land owners don't hunt but sign up just for the social event. They ask hunters who hunt their land to join the club. We now cover 2 townships of participating members. I have a 40 X 56 shop where we hold the banquet and its getting full. Each year we pick up a few more hunters
We don't have any APR by the state and I personally don't agree with them. We have young hunters eager to draw blood, so let them draw blood. We have old hunters who don't get many chances to shoot deer so let them shoot a basket rack or fawn if they want to.
My belief is that primarily the #1 important thing is that its about deer hunting and having a pleasant experience. I've learned that a lot of trophies don't have to have big horns. I can tell by the smiles when they show of the animal and tell the stories. That trophy smile tells it all.
#2 important thing is herd health, dry does need to be taken and the population cannot be more than the habitat can support. Without adequate food, large horns can't be grown. And does don't produce fawns. Up north in a bad winter the does absorb the fawn they are carrying if the food supply is bad, result is no fawn crop.
#3 is antler management. If the herd is healthy, and food is adequate, the horns come. During a hard cold winter the alpha bucks are the first to die because they come into the winter with no fat reserves. That is due to all of the energy they spend during the rut chasing does. This is where that basket rack is important because he may well be next years alpha buck
We have a very healthy herd, and there is a good number of big bucks being seen and shot.
Different areas require different management tactics. I am no expert by any means but I do see that what we are doing is having positive results. In our agriculture environment this system works. For the most part we are all neighbors or know each other and as a result its been fairly easy to get all on board with the idea. Where there is a lot of public land in large tracts it would be difficult. We have public land here also but its waterfowl production areas that 40 to 160 acres. But in the Big Woods it would be hard or impossible to get all the hunters together. Thats where hunters want the state to step in with APR restrictions. This makes for not to enjoyable hunts for young hunters and old hunters.
My complaint is that the Fish & Game depts. are involved in to much BS politics from the legislatures who are making decisions based on lobbyist money instead of sound science. There the problem lays. As a hunter we need to get politically active and let the SOB's know what we want.
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Old July 29, 2013, 11:52 PM   #62
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Why would I take a picture of a spike, 4, or 6 point?
For documentation...........We age..weight..take pics of all mature bucks(especially if it were genetically inferior)....
Like I said before..after 20 years of this..we just don't find these kind of bucks that are not just young bucks....Not saying it never happens..it's just rare....

I live in a county that has had a good population of deer on the East side for many years(because of larger tracts and rougher inaccessible terrain).....
The rest of the county had areas that the deer herd was almost completely wiped out(folks shot anything with horns)....Since cutting back to a one buck county..populations have replenished....We are now a 2 buck county now and with antler restrictions the quality of the bucks being harvested has raised dramatically....

Lucas..that sounds awesome! We do a lot of the same things....We have a county-wide elected Game management assoc....Big shin-dig..prizes and such....Shoulder-mounted deer are displayed that were harvested the previous year....Everyone is getting into management and cooperating with the TPWD on strengthening the quality of the herd....Young folks(our future) show up in droves....
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Old July 30, 2013, 06:45 AM   #63
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Minor disagreements aside, I am glad to see this topic come up. I was beginning to think I was the Lone Contrarian or something.
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Old July 30, 2013, 08:31 AM   #64
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Originally posted bySarge: Minor disagreements aside, I am glad to see this topic come up.

Same here. While we may not all agree, the exchange of ideas and information is what these forums are about. One thing is for sure. There is too much factual information out there that one should not make a judgement on this based on myth, old wives tales and the expertise of armchair biologist/game managers.

In an area where there is good habitat, you will NEVER shoot all the mature bucks. If it doesn't happen in areas without ARs, why would it in areas with ARs? Mature bucks are harder to find and to harvest. That's how they and their genes survive and have survived for a coupla centuries here in the U.S. Saying that ARs deplete the gene pool is not based on fact. The larger racked bucks will always be the dominate ones and will always do the majority of the breeding. A local bar runs a two "big buck" contests every year. One is based on weight, the other on rack. They get good numbers of entries, generally over a hundred. Never in twenty years of running it has one deer won both. The large racked deer are always substantially lighter than smaller racked deer come deer season, not because they used all that energy and fat reserves to grow horn, but because they were doing the majority of the fighting and breeding. The heavier bucks, altho most have good racks, were not the dominate bucks tho and did little breeding, less fighting and more eating during the rut. This is how the good Lord designed it. Do small scrub horns breed? Sure they do, even now to a small degree in areas of non ARs. Giving them the chance to grow will not change that, but it will not increase it either. Given the room, food and minerals needed, even a scrub horn @ 18 months will have a decent rack @ 5. If not, there are factors other than the gene pool at work. But odds are, they will never be the dominate buck in the area. Bucks don't need to be 5 years old to pass on their genes. They can and do at 18 months in many places. Again, this is how the big rack genes stay in the pool in areas were deer are normally shot at 18-30 months of age. Bucks aren't the only one's that contribute to the gene pool. Does donate 50% also. But even scrub horns may carry the genes for a big rack, it's just a recessive trait in them.

ARs are not a management tool in themselves. They MUST be combined with other sound deer management tools in order to be successful and to promote a healthy herd. Herd size needs to be determined by factors other than just what hunters want to see. Whether or not ARs are a sound management tool in a certain area are subjective and discretionary, but whether they are state induced or self-imposed, they must be used based on fact and knowledge. Not because Joe hasn't gotten a deer the last two years. While they do promote a larger average antler size for the total herd, they can also promote a healthier herd without shortening the season or reducing overall buck harvest.
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Old July 30, 2013, 01:20 PM   #65
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Was gone for a little bit and missed some postings. I have been hunting the same areas since I was old enough to hunt. Gary Alt (Bear photographer turned "Deer expert") even admitted the first two years was a disaster. "We did not plan for that amount of button bucks being shot." The answer: Don't shoot button bucks. Real hunters are not sitting in a tree house with 80 power binoculars waiting for a deer to wander up until it can be identified. "Just because you don't see bucks does not mean there are none. " Really? Deer are big animals and leave a lot of sign. I can still show you areas where there are rubs years old and now you can barely find one. The ones you do see are made by bigger deer that are almost impossible to kill legally. I just get sick of listening to lies. I got in an argument with a Game Warden that tried to tell me that the kill report card never had Public or Private land as part of the report. That got dropped soon after the new deer policy started. Some of the state lands were beat down to hand fulls of deer and hunters were really PO. Same thing in Maryland. At Indian Springs it used to be loaded with rubs. When I quit there, you could walk all day and be lucky to see two rubs. Yeah, what a brainstorm, issue thousands of tags and hope by some miracle that the overpopulated areas (Where almost no one can hunt) will magically have the deer herd thinned down.
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Old July 30, 2013, 06:15 PM   #66
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Originally posted by Gunplummer:

The answer: Don't shoot button bucks. Real hunters are not sitting in a tree house with 80 power binoculars waiting for a deer to wander up until it can be identified.
But.....real hunters don't shoot button bucks by accident because they can easily identify them as being young of the year. You shoot this years fawn, you have a 50% chance of it bein' a buck. Real hunters in areas where there are no ARs, still must take the time to identify an animals sex before they shoot if they have a buck only tag. Spikes and pencil horns are hard to tell and sometimes take a real effort to see. How is this any different that taking the time to judge between a adult and a fawn of the year? Only "brown it's down" hunters hunt without identifying their animal first. Shoot first, look later.

Hunters need to realize they have to be responsible for their actions. Just because the F&G issues 3000 antlerless permits for that area, don't mean they have to fill them all. If they do, they don't have the F&G to blame....just themselves. If you hunt hard all season, seeing very little buck sign and finally see a small scrub, you don't think, "I better shoot it.......it might be the last one left!". You should think, I should let it walk.......it might be the last one.". Youth and new hunters should not be disappointed or scorned if they take a nice doe instead of a small buck. They need to learn that it is not a sign of being a poor hunter as when I was a kid, but the sign of a sportsman doing what's right for proper deer herd health. If deer are plentiful and pressure is light, one should not feel guilty if they fill a second antlerless tag. But if the deer are scarce and the pressure has been heavy, one needs to ask themselves what they want worse....meat this year or more deer next year. Thinkin' "if I don't shoot it, someone else will!" is only true if the other guy thinks the same as you. F&G has a hard time regulating deer numbers on private lands. As Gunplummer states, one can issue all the tags in the world and it still may be that not one doe on private land gets shot. Then slobs with itchy fingers try and fill those limitless tags on public land they can access. Funny, they're the first ones to whine when they see nuttin' a few years down the road. Hunters need to help the F&G....not just complain about it. Go to meetings and hearings on seasons and bag limits. Be vocal to those slob hunters that ruin it for everybody. Peer pressure to not shoot animals is just as powerful as the pressure to shoot something to impress your peers. Get involved with a whitetail organization to see if there's anything that needs to be done locally. Teach and inform the young and the ignorant about what it takes to make hunting better. It ain't always just about gettin' blood on your knife.
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Old July 30, 2013, 06:38 PM   #67
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There's so many different ways , whose is right/ wrong? All ! There's so many differences, just do it legally. Some people ( myself ) are meat hunters , some trophy hunters, some, etc and etc.... Some bow hunters, traditional hunters ( if you really get to it a lot of them are hard core) and there's the one sitting in a 2000 dollar enclosed stand with a 10,000 dollar RTV 5000 dollar rifle, so on and so fourth. To me money has nothing to do with it. The more purer the more I like it. Respect all hunters, we need each other, got each others backs and need to recruit all we can.
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Old July 30, 2013, 06:51 PM   #68
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The trouble with true "Quality Deer Management" on a state-wide scale is that a great many, I would wager most, hunters couldn't give the south bound end of a north bound rat about any of it.

They don't care what makes a good deer herd and they don't know the first thing about it.

The programs put into place by the wildlife folks have to somehow work within the ignorance of the average hunter.

There's no possible way to implement a "If it's 1 1/2 and a spike shoot it but if it's 1 1/2 and it's a 6 point don't but if it's 2 1/2 and a 6 point do shoot it..." kind of thing among 10s of thousands of hunters who don't know and don't care to learn.

Antler point restrictions are, IMO, the best of the imperfect ways to try to make things better.
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Old July 30, 2013, 07:10 PM   #69
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Yep point restrictions are great for you. And me, I wouldn't are if I ever shoot another buck. All mine go straight to the freeezer.
Who's right/wrong ? Neither. We hunt for different reasons. As long as we're having fun and making memories.
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Old July 30, 2013, 07:23 PM   #70
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Considering that I've killed several dozen deer and only one has been bigger than a 5 point AND I don't live in an area that has APRs, they're not "great for me". They're just the better of a bunch of imperfect ideas. The ideas have to work for the average hunter and have to be enforceable. The APRs also have no effect whatsoever on the total deer harvest, on average, unless your total deer population is low, the ratio is poor and there are very few doe tags available.

In NY state, you'd be lucky to find a place to hunt where anterless (buck and doe) don't outnumber antlered deer by 5:1. Having to let a smallish buck walk isn't likely to effect your odds of putting meat in the freezer. If you saw one antlered buck, you've probably seen or will see 5 or 8 or 15 antlerless.
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Old July 30, 2013, 07:37 PM   #71
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About 50 yards behind my house is where I hunt. When my two deer feeders go off (in deer season) wait about 2 minutes and they're be about 40 deer at each feeder. I've had 160" bucks standing about 7 yards from my house before. If we walk about 200 yards through some woods in my back yard we'll come to a field about 500 acres. This evening you can sit and see about 100 deer at one single time. They'll be scattered here and there. There's about 6000 acres that joins my back fence that hasn't been hunted in over 30 years, there's thousands of acres across from me and woods on each sides of me. I've shoot more deer out my windows than most have ever killed. There's probably 170-180 class deer here that I seen and I still wouldn't give you 15 cents for one. I've shot deer out my window of house with a bow.
The question is, I hunt very different than you Brian. Would you call it hunting ? Sure, just different. If I seen a 200 class buck and a doe standing next to him, I'm fixing to be skinning a doe !

So many people think that hunting has to bring home a huge buck or spending thousands of dollars on a lease and supplies, etc. It has nothing to do with all that.
You use the word Ignorant loosely , am I ignorant because I have different views than yours ? I just like different ways to do them maybe. Enjoy you're Buck.

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Old July 30, 2013, 07:57 PM   #72
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I couldn't care less how anyone hunts, what they hunt with or what they choose to shoot, so long as it's legal. My use of the word ignorant and who it refers to is self explanatory in the context of my statement. It has nothing to do with you or any other specific individual.
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Old July 30, 2013, 08:58 PM   #73
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Brian, Several years ago, I had a huge spike on my land who was the dominant buck. I looked at him several times and thought "da.. that is a huge buck." He was chasing mature bucks away. I watched a nice 8 pointer run from him. Had antler restrictions been in place where I hunt, he would have been breeding all the does on my property. My neighbor had a 11 year old kid and I told the neighbor to take him over in the field and shoot the spike. Why would I want that thing breeding the does on my hunting land? That is precisely the kind of junk Antler restrictions protect.
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Old July 30, 2013, 09:11 PM   #74
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Didn't say it was the best solution but I haven't heard one better, for the masses.

Your situation... the exception that proves the rule. If that was common, it wouldn't stand out in your mind. It's not common, it's an anomaly.

In a lot of areas of NY, the doe to buck ratio is so high that ALL the bucks get to breed.
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Old July 31, 2013, 06:07 AM   #75
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