Which center-fire rifle cartridge would you not trust for self defense? - Page 2

1stmar · December 11, 2012, 07:04 PM

Personally I think it's ideal for a self defense home gun, sufficient power without the over penetration concerns. Quick, handy, light, 30 rds.
But that's not what the ask was about...personally I'd be comfortable that the job could get done with just about any recent centerfire cartridge. So I don't think there is anything I wouldn't TRUST. Want.... Is another question.

coyota1 · December 11, 2012, 07:13 PM

Alright, I was a bit off topic, but I wouldn't trust anything with much more power unless you are not worried about way over penetration which is what you risk with high power rifles, So unless, you have frangible bullets, the carbine would be ideal.

PatientWolf · December 11, 2012, 09:21 PM

.50 BMG. I just can't seem to get the rifle around in time for a personal defense situation.

allaroundhunter · December 11, 2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

True the 204 Ruger has more energy, but how much of that energy is going to be transferred to target?

At self defense ranges? Pretty much all of it. And more than most any pistol round short of a 454 Casull.

The .204 Ruger will make anyone's day bad if they get hit with it. It will tear a person up and not leave much will to fight left (just like any rifle with a varmint-type round).

SVO · December 11, 2012, 10:38 PM

458 Winchester

TXAZ · December 11, 2012, 10:44 PM

Cartridge wise, Brian made a good point in that even a small bore rifle has more muzzle energy that almost any handgun.

bamaranger · December 12, 2012, 01:32 AM

Does it seem odd to anybody else that we often hear about the .30 Carbine bouncing off the Chinese and Koreans, in quilted winter clothing, but the round seems to have done just fine, or at lease adequately, against the Nazi's in cold weather uniform.

coyota1 · December 12, 2012, 02:19 AM

The Nazis were known for being under dressed for cold, wearing their dress uniforms with a trench coat. There were complaints mainly due to lack of ability of the carbine to penetrate saplings, small trees, the siding of buildings, etc., where the Garand could. This feature is what makes it desirable for home defense apps. The carbine was designed as a replacement for the 45, not the Garand, although it was used in place of an assault rifle in close quarters with some success. The M2 carbine could be fired in full auto also.

SHR970 · December 12, 2012, 03:02 AM

30 carbine and winter clothing myth. Box O Truth

To the question. My 375 RUM. In my apartment, in my neighborhood, over penetration may be a bit of a concern. I'm pretty sure my neighbors for the next 3 or 4 houses wouldn't be too happy with me if I used it.

Art Eatman · December 12, 2012, 11:34 AM

There is some evidence that rapid multiple hits from pipsqueak cartridges have an effect beyond the usual expectations. This comes from such "packages" as the Skorpion with .32ACPs.

Drawing on that, then, I'd figure that very-rapid multiple hits from such as a 10/22 or other semi-auto .22 rifle would be as effective as needed at commonly-accepted "defense of home" distances. To me, that's most likely within twenty yards or less.

Granted that I don't think in terms of one shot and stop to look. As long as the Bad Guy isn't lined up with BossLady's Steinway, I figure to quit when the Bad Guy does.

WV_gunner · December 12, 2012, 12:42 PM

Almost every self defense situation is short range. So, I wouldn't use a high powered rifle. I think, just rifle cartridges, the 7.62x39 and 45-70 could be decent choices. But only with either hollow points or ballistic tips. I'd rather use handgun catridges in a rifle though for self defense if I had the choice.

As far as actions are concerned, I think semi auto would be best but a pump would work good too. Revolving rifles could do the job well too. But I wouldn't want to use a bolt action or a single shot.

allaroundhunter · December 12, 2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:

45-70 could be decent choices. But only with either hollow points or ballistic tips.

Defense from Bears?.... If someone lives in a residential area, a .45-70 is a little much. That thing is going to penetrate a good bit more than most would like, even with hollow points or ballistic tips.

btmj · December 12, 2012, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Drawing on that, then, I'd figure that very-rapid multiple hits from such as a 10/22 or other semi-auto .22 rifle would be as effective as needed at commonly-accepted "defense of home" distances. To me, that's most likely within twenty yards or less.

Agree ! If you look at a 12 gage buckshot load, 2-3/4 inch shell, #1 buckshot, you find that there are 16 pellets, 40 grain each, travelling at 1250 - 1350 fps. Each pellet is very close to a 22 LR fired from a rifle... 40 grain, 1250 fps. So multiple hits from a 22 rifle will have similar wounding capability as buckshot.

It is not a stretch to say that if you had a 22LR machine gun with a 15 round magazine, and you emptied the magazine into a target... you have achieved the same effect as a single round of 12 gage #1 buckshot.

Old Grump · December 12, 2012, 02:49 PM

Anything under 25 caliber is a last choice for me, only to be used in case there is nothing else.

coyota1 · December 12, 2012, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Anything under 25 caliber is a last choice for me, only to be used in case there is nothing else.

So you think 9mm is more effective than 223 for home defense???

ronl · December 12, 2012, 03:18 PM

I personally wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any rifle bullet. I've seen the lowly .22 do some decent work at close range. I've seen the .17 do some pretty impressive things, too. I depend on the .223 loaded with V-max bullets to do the nasty in a self defense situation. They have a tendency to deposit their energy into whatever they hit without exiting. I would not want to depend on anything much larger than 7.62x39 for HD simply because of weight/ movement/recoil issues and the inability to make multiple hits rapidly and get back on target.

Old Grump · December 12, 2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

So you think 9mm is more effective than 223 for home defense???

I was thinking rifle you are thinking pistol, to answer your question truthfully it depends but for bump in the night just woke up and rubbing sleep out of my eyes then yes I would prefer the 9MM. Real life I would prefer a gauge larger than 28 rather than any caliber but he asked for a caliber. Daytime shooting give me a 30-30. While you are pumping .223 rounds into boogerman I only need one bullet. 150 gr, flat point, lead. Shoot what you want, Op wanted to know our opinion on rifle caliber and I gave mine. You have yours and ain't it a wonderful world we live in when we have a choice.

Just to be clear, if you are thinking about a 9MM carbine I would still choose the 30-30.

Same reason, I only need one bullet.

coyota1 · December 12, 2012, 03:52 PM

With a 223 varmint bullet you will turn your attacker's insides into garbage... One bullet.

JimDandy · December 12, 2012, 04:00 PM

The US went with a 62 grain round in 5.56 because they felt the 55 grain was inhumane.

coyota1 · December 12, 2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

The US went with a 62 grain round in 5.56 because they felt the 55 grain was inhumane.

Be that as it may, the heavier bullets carry better for longer range (desert warfare).

MarkCO · December 12, 2012, 04:33 PM

The two that come to my mind are the 32-20 and .22 Winchester Centerfire. The 4.6x30 and the 5.7x28 are probably 3rd and 4th from the bottom of the list. I'd use them if I had to, but I would not purposely choose those four.

coyota1 · December 12, 2012, 04:53 PM

The bottom of my list would be the 25-21 Stevens, but if it was all I had I'd use it in a heartbeat.

Woody55 · December 12, 2012, 05:56 PM

They'd all be fine. Although I agree with whoever said he'd skip the stuff that was so expensive you coudn't practice with it. And I'll add to that, I'd skip the stuff that recoils so bad I wouldn't practice with it.

Then this about the .30 carbine round:

Quote:

1stMar --- Yea...agreed. But at what approx. distance, did the 30 cal. carbine bullets, bounce off the coats of the attacking North Korean hordes, during the Korean War?

It reminds me of conversations like this:

"Man that M4 sucks! I shot that guy three times and he didn't even notice!"

"How do you know you hit him?"

"Man he was only 50 m away. I don't miss the 50 m target."

He missed. Anyone who has ever gone hunting knows you can miss at any distance. And getting shot at doesn't improve your aim.

However, if anyone wants to volunteer to put on a pleated jacket and get shot at by an M1 carbine at 100 m, please take a video. We'll try and get you a Darwin Award.

Dr_2_B · December 12, 2012, 10:42 PM

Quote:

There is some evidence that rapid multiple hits from pipsqueak cartridges have an effect beyond the usual expectations.

Hey Art, by any chance can you point me to any info on this. I have some hypotheses about why this would occur but I'd enjoy reading about it.

bamaranger · December 13, 2012, 02:56 AM

Not really scientific, but Audie Murphy, in his book "to Hell and Back" relates several episodes of shooting enemy soldiers multiple times in a sort of "double and triple tap" (my lingo) with the M1 carbine, with the expected results. The mild shooting carbine likely helped him do that. He was likely a good combat shot too.

Murphy wasn't a big guy (physically) , I suspect that was one reason he liked the carbine, easy to tote across Europe.

One of the men on my genuine hero list.

December 11, 2012, 10:44 PM	#31
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	Cartridge wise, Brian made a good point in that even a small bore rifle has more muzzle energy that almost any handgun. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

December 12, 2012, 01:32 AM	#32
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	ain't it funny Does it seem odd to anybody else that we often hear about the .30 Carbine bouncing off the Chinese and Koreans, in quilted winter clothing, but the round seems to have done just fine, or at lease adequately, against the Nazi's in cold weather uniform.

December 12, 2012, 03:02 AM	#34
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	30 carbine and winter clothing myth. Box O Truth To the question. My 375 RUM. In my apartment, in my neighborhood, over penetration may be a bit of a concern. I'm pretty sure my neighbors for the next 3 or 4 houses wouldn't be too happy with me if I used it. Last edited by SHR970; December 12, 2012 at 12:42 PM.

December 12, 2012, 02:49 PM	#39
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Anything under 25 caliber is a last choice for me, only to be used in case there is nothing else. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

December 12, 2012, 04:33 PM	#46
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,308	The two that come to my mind are the 32-20 and .22 Winchester Centerfire. The 4.6x30 and the 5.7x28 are probably 3rd and 4th from the bottom of the list. I'd use them if I had to, but I would not purposely choose those four. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

December 11, 2012, 07:04 PM	#26
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Personally I think it's ideal for a self defense home gun, sufficient power without the over penetration concerns. Quick, handy, light, 30 rds. But that's not what the ask was about...personally I'd be comfortable that the job could get done with just about any recent centerfire cartridge. So I don't think there is anything I wouldn't TRUST. Want.... Is another question.

December 11, 2012, 07:13 PM	#27
coyota1 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2008 Location: West Michigan Posts: 663	Alright, I was a bit off topic, but I wouldn't trust anything with much more power unless you are not worried about way over penetration which is what you risk with high power rifles, So unless, you have frangible bullets, the carbine would be ideal.

December 11, 2012, 09:21 PM	#28
PatientWolf Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Location: NC Posts: 947	.50 BMG. I just can't seem to get the rifle around in time for a personal defense situation.

December 11, 2012, 10:38 PM	#30
SVO Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2009 Location: Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 728	458 Winchester

December 12, 2012, 02:19 AM	#33
coyota1 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2008 Location: West Michigan Posts: 663	The Nazis were known for being under dressed for cold, wearing their dress uniforms with a trench coat. There were complaints mainly due to lack of ability of the carbine to penetrate saplings, small trees, the siding of buildings, etc., where the Garand could. This feature is what makes it desirable for home defense apps. The carbine was designed as a replacement for the 45, not the Garand, although it was used in place of an assault rifle in close quarters with some success. The M2 carbine could be fired in full auto also.

December 12, 2012, 11:34 AM	#35
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	There is some evidence that rapid multiple hits from pipsqueak cartridges have an effect beyond the usual expectations. This comes from such "packages" as the Skorpion with .32ACPs. Drawing on that, then, I'd figure that very-rapid multiple hits from such as a 10/22 or other semi-auto .22 rifle would be as effective as needed at commonly-accepted "defense of home" distances. To me, that's most likely within twenty yards or less. Granted that I don't think in terms of one shot and stop to look. As long as the Bad Guy isn't lined up with BossLady's Steinway, I figure to quit when the Bad Guy does.

December 12, 2012, 12:42 PM	#36
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	Almost every self defense situation is short range. So, I wouldn't use a high powered rifle. I think, just rifle cartridges, the 7.62x39 and 45-70 could be decent choices. But only with either hollow points or ballistic tips. I'd rather use handgun catridges in a rifle though for self defense if I had the choice. As far as actions are concerned, I think semi auto would be best but a pump would work good too. Revolving rifles could do the job well too. But I wouldn't want to use a bolt action or a single shot.

December 12, 2012, 03:18 PM	#41
ronl Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Posts: 1,100	I personally wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any rifle bullet. I've seen the lowly .22 do some decent work at close range. I've seen the .17 do some pretty impressive things, too. I depend on the .223 loaded with V-max bullets to do the nasty in a self defense situation. They have a tendency to deposit their energy into whatever they hit without exiting. I would not want to depend on anything much larger than 7.62x39 for HD simply because of weight/ movement/recoil issues and the inability to make multiple hits rapidly and get back on target.

December 12, 2012, 03:52 PM	#43
coyota1 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2008 Location: West Michigan Posts: 663	With a 223 varmint bullet you will turn your attacker's insides into garbage... One bullet.

December 12, 2012, 04:00 PM	#44
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 2,556	The US went with a 62 grain round in 5.56 because they felt the 55 grain was inhumane.

December 12, 2012, 04:53 PM	#47
coyota1 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2008 Location: West Michigan Posts: 663	The bottom of my list would be the 25-21 Stevens, but if it was all I had I'd use it in a heartbeat.

December 13, 2012, 02:56 AM	#50
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	multiple hits Not really scientific, but Audie Murphy, in his book "to Hell and Back" relates several episodes of shooting enemy soldiers multiple times in a sort of "double and triple tap" (my lingo) with the M1 carbine, with the expected results. The mild shooting carbine likely helped him do that. He was likely a good combat shot too. Murphy wasn't a big guy (physically) , I suspect that was one reason he liked the carbine, easy to tote across Europe. One of the men on my genuine hero list.