How come 1911 autos never took with LEOs in the early to mid 20th century?

[smince]

Shooter John: What part of Bama are you in?

You are correct in that I know of no agencies that allow S.A. carry. But I know several officers who carry S.A. off duty, and they do let us "civilians" shoot our single action auto's on the FOP range here.

[Sulaco2]

We finally went to 9mm's in the early 80's after a bank robber shot it out with one of our K-9' and our guy used his last round in the .357 revolver to put down the advancing BG after he and his K-9 were ambushed and shot by the robber from cover. The BG taunted the downed officer that he was "out" and was walking towards him when he absorbed the .357. Seems the BG missed counted and thought the officer had fired all six from his S&W. The officer's back up was coming but he and the dog had out distanced the backup into heavy brush in an old coal town in eastern King County. The officer lost a finger and the K-9 was retired with honors. It took that incident to finally get out dinosauer command staff to move away from manditory revolvers for all.

[Jeff22]

I'm not trying to bash anybody, but a couple of the previous posts had some inaccuracies . . .

Somebody claimed that free ammo was available from the Law Enforcement Assistance Administraiton (LEAA). This is not remotely true. The LEAA was disbanded in 1977 by the Carter Administration! Police agencies can often get practice and service ammo for a signficant savings because they don't have to pay 11% federal excise tax and also may get a discount for bulk orders. In my state, any county or municipal department can order ammo off the state bid and get it quite cheaply -- I would expect other states have a similar arrangement.

Proper HP service ammo for the .45 ACP cartridge was available from about 1977 on. The popular choices were the Remington 185 grain HP(that had the jacket folded up OVER the lips of the HP cavity to ensure proper feeding) and the Speer 200 grain "Flying ashtray" or "Flying Coffee Cup". (Most guns had to be throated to feed the Speer 200 grain bullet, however). And about 1979 or 80 the WW Silvertip came out.

I came on in 1981, working for a little town that had a wide open handgun policy. The Chief carried a Browning P35 (condition two -- hammer down on a loaded chamber!) and the three of us who were IPSC shooters carried M1911 pattern pistols, two Colt Gold Cups and I carried a Combat Commander. The rest of the PD had S&W or Colt revolvers.

In 1988 I switched to a Beretta 92F because the DA auto was clearly the way the world was going, like it or not (and I was an MP in the ARNG at that time, although my unit didn't switch from the M1911A1 to the M9 until the early 1990s). (for what it's worth, I have big hands and long fingers and the M9 fit me fine. I really like them)

The Texas Rangers and some of the early FBI agents carried SA auto pistols in .45 ACP or .38 Super. There were/are areas where SA autos are allowed as an option. There were/are lots of agencies in the southwest where SA pistols have been carried for years, as well as a couple of the Chicago suburbs.

Back about 1975 or so, Allen P. Bristow wrote a book called The Search for an Effective Police Handgun (published by Charles C. Thomas) and his conclusion was that the .45 Auto Pistol was a fine choice in the hands of a trained operator. I used his book as a major source for a research paper on police handguns I did during my last semester of college (spring 1980).

"Cocked & Locked" carry (condition three) is something that should only be attempted by a trained & experienced operator who practices on a regular basis. Sadly, most cops don't practice much at all, which makes this option a bad choice for them.

[Jack Malloy]

Actually, the idea that cops did not carry autos in the early part of the 20th century is a misnomer.
Like everybody else, THEY DID!!!!

Colt 1911s, Savage .32s and Browning pattern .38 and .380 autos were very popular well into the 20s and 30s.
For years, the NYPD did not even offer holsters. Officers carried their .32 autos and .32 revolvers in coat pockets.

What happened was two fold.
Number one, there were a lot of accidents with the striker fired single action autos.
Number two, the .32 and other rounds were found to be woefully inadequate when it comes to stopping power, and this left the 1911 and the High Power along with the occassional Luger or rare Walther p-38 the only viable semi autos for LE use for years to come.
Remember, most agencies would not allow or issue a foriegn made gun back then. Still,, many cops carreid Colts. G Gordon Liddy recalls his uncle, an FBI agent packing a Colt .38 Super. Frank Hamer used the same type of gun to take down Bonnie and Clyde.....

There is another factor too, that comes into play...

Notice that up till Cooper's era, most men who packed a 1911 packed it hammer down on a live round, sometimes half cocked.
Considering that a double action revolver is faster to draw and fire than a single action auto that is to be THUMB COCKED, the DA revolver caught on like wildfire by the forties and fifties. Also, by then, experts like Keith and Jordan were weiging in on the side of the wheelgun.
Outside of soldiers in the field, pretty much nobody was packing cocked and locked prior to Coopers ascendancy. Elmer Keith recommended it in his book Sixguns in the fifties, and people thought he was crazy.....

Something else to consider. Not every police officer is as into guns as say you or I. It was even WORSE back then in the days before "Officer Survival" became a tag word.

Most older cops (who were not into guns) would be asked why they carried a revolver instead of a military auto and instead of admitting that they didn't know would say, "Autos are jammamatics."
(You still encounter this attitude with older officers vis a vis giving bad advice to the public. I think we all know some crusy old timer who was told by some wrong headed but well meaning officer that if you shoot somebody drag them into the house and plant a knife in their hand. That is tampering with evidence and would easily get you imprisoned in this day and age.)
Seeing as how the only guns that many of them ever encountered which were autos were cheesy saturday night special types, they bought into that myth.
The reality is the autoloader (especially Colt 1911) had proven itself for reliability as early as WWI.


As for agencies issueing them, El Monte PD issued Colt .45 autos way back in the sixties according to Joseph Wambaugh.
Other agencies large and small have issued or allowed 1911s and high powers way back before the new wave of police autos arrived in the mid seventies and early 80s.
In David Morrell's novel "First Blood" Sheriff Teasle is packing a high power. It takes place in Kentucky....Many officers I know who were on duty way back in the sixties and seventies in Kentucky also packed High Powers.

So what it boils down to is this. For a brief period of time, autoloaders were popular with police at the turn of the century through the roaring 20s.
Then the DA revolver became fashionable and in time the autoloader was pretty much verboten to rank and file cops on big departments.
Not knowing why, many officers just assumed there was a valid reason.
For decades it stayed that way as LE brass tends to be hide bound and reactionary.
Personally, I think the LE world has gone in the wrong direction today. I can think of a half a dozen shooting incidents over the past few years where honest officers were castigated (by people who don't understand terminal ballistics) for shooting suspects multiple times. It probably would have not happened that way, had they been packing wheelguns in effective calibers.
I really think that with a big bore or magnum, the fight would have ended in one or two rounds and saved these officers and their departments a lot of grief....

[cuate]

I packed a 4" barreled "Highway Patrolman" model S&W .357 with adjustable rear sight. I never felt poorly armed. Later as an ordinary citizen I reloaded .38Spl.
with 5 gr. Bullseye powder behind a Elmer Keith lead hollowpoint. I didn't feel that load would be insuffecient either.

These days auto pistols are my choice but still have a .38spl and a .357mag.
but carry neither......I moved with the tide, a follower not a leader.

[CobrayCommando]

Because the 1911 was and still is an outdated innacurate piece of unreliable garbage created by a man not fit to lick the boots of Gaston Glock. Its too heavy, too expensive, too bulky and fires an outdated and weak caliber compared to the 9mm which has marginally more kinetic energy and is therefore vastly superior for some reason despite the fact that it creates a 66percent smaller wound track.

Fie on thee, 1911! Fie I say! We are the knights who say fie fie fie, the Knights of Wundernine!



This message will self destruct in 10 seconds

[Tripplethreat]

In 1970 I was the first officer ever to report for duty wearing a cocked and locked,lightly customized 1911. Remember,this was in the days when there was virtually no hollowpoint ammo available in that caliber,and what was available was hard to find and rarely expanded well.
I wore a forward rake duty holster and thought I was the cock of the walk,but the old detectives were aghast that I was carrying a "cocked gun."
We furnished our own sidearms during those dark ages(no,they weren't the good old days!) and could carry anything we wanted as long as it was at least .38 special caliber.
There were 3 officers who carried Ruger single action .41 magnums,and one of those had cut down the barrell and didn't bother to have a new sight installed. Sidearms were used as clubs by a few,and this guy was one of the ones who practiced that regularly.
After a year or so I got fedup with all the negative comments and went back to my Mod 19 S&W.
Actually,it felt pretty good getting back to a revolver,at least I was able to find decent ammo,though not nearly as good as what we have now,but I also reloaded at the time.Auto or revolver? It depends entirely on the man using it.

[Candiru]

Sometimes I think modern police departments would be better off going with .357 Magnum revolvers. A nice 7-shooter like the S&W 686P holds enough rounds to get the job done, fires an inarguably sufficient caliber, has a nice double-action trigger, is reliable and simple to operate for an inexperienced shooter, and strongly discourages spray-and-pray shooting both by virtue of its recoil and (arguably) small number of rounds. It's an ideal defensive weapon for someone who wants to do as little shooting as possible.

This dovetails with my thinking on the police force in the United States: The paramilitary aspect needs to be deemphasized and the role as peace-keeper should be brought to the forefront. Officer survivability doesn't require an equipment solution, it requires better training and marksmanship. I'd gladly pay the extra tax money required to give each police officer in the field at least two days of paid training a month. This isn't just out of altruism for the guys and gals in blue, but also because an accurate-shooting cop enjoys both improved safety and is safer for everyone around him or her.

[ISP2605]

"I'd gladly pay the extra tax money required to give each police officer in the field at least two days of paid training a month."

For my dept that would be an additional $3,024,000 a year to the budget, not including cost of ammo and targets.
Nationwide, at an average of $40/hr for every officer, that would be an additional $2,560,000,000 to your taxes.

[progunner1957]

1911s may not have caught on with many police departments, but the Texas Rangers carried 1911s at one time; that's a telling endoresment of the 1911!

As the story goes, a Texas Ranger was in a small diner for his lunch break. When he got out of his booth to go pay for his food, another customer noticed his 1911, in condition one.

The customer became very agitated and asked, "Mister, do you know that your pistol is cocked?" The Ranger replied, "Yes, I know it is cocked." The customer was incredulous. "But ain't that dangerous?" he asked.

"You damn betcha it's dangerous," replied the Ranger.

[Candiru]

"I'd gladly pay the extra tax money required to give each police officer in the field at least two days of paid training a month."

For my dept that would be an additional $3,024,000 a year to the budget, not including cost of ammo and targets.
Nationwide, at an average of $40/hr for every officer, that would be an additional $2,560,000,000 to your taxes.

$3,024,000 / 24 days = departmental cost per day of $126,000. It would actually be much higher, since the increase is just for officers, not all personnel. Going with that number, though $126,000 * 365 = $45,990,000, so a 3 million bump would constitute about a 6% increase, which I would not object to paying; can't speak for others, though.

As for the average wage of $40/hr., even figuring very conservatively and not counting overtime, that's almost $80,000 a year. Where are cops paid that much?

[smince]

I think he meant average price of $40 an hour for training cost.

"I'd gladly pay the extra tax money required to give each police officer in the field at least two days of paid training a month."

When I first started to vote a man older and wiser than me said this: "Son never vote a tax on yourself. Them politicians will put enough on you without asking!"

[ISP2605]

"As for the average wage of $40/hr., even figuring very conservatively and not counting overtime, that's almost $80,000 a year. Where are cops paid that much?"

The $3 mil figure was for 2100 sworn officers, 2 days a month, 12 months.
$40/hr is average pay in my agency. Starting pay is just shy of $24/hr. At 20 yrs if they never get a promo and without any OT they're at $80/yr. At 24 yrs with OT they're over $100K/yr if they never get a promo. At the end of this contract in 3 yrs a 25 yr officer will be right at $100K without OT.
When we figure special detail hirebacks where someone has to reimburse my agency for officer cost we figure at a bit over $70/hr which covers their health and life insurance and retirement payments.
Average officer pay in my agency, taking into account all ranks and seniority pay, is right at $55/hr.

www.trooperpay.net
www.policepay.net
www.deputypay.net

[kbellis3]

I am not in law enforcement, but it routinely happens when I am carring 1911 at the range or openly on private property, that people come up to me and tell that my gun is cocked. Sometimes I get a lecture, and it is usually older men who feel compelled to tell, and when I don't immediatly go Condition 2, I sometimes get a lecture about how dangerous it is to carry a firearm in Condition 1.

One can imagine the reaction to a large PD going to 1911's from the press, the lawyers, and the largly ignorant public.


Kyle

PS Just say thank you and carry on.

[smince]

"DO YOU KNOW YOUR GUN IS COCKED?"

I usually just say "It'll be O.K. The safety is on."

[U.S.SFC_RET]

On the Battlefield a pistol is about worthless and out moded for killing as an effective weapon. I alway thought the only reason those things got issued out anyway was to people who had the rank enough to get away from carrying a rifle. When I got deployed the first thing that popped into my mind was I hope that bastard doesn't think about trying to pull any rank on anyone and get their rifle when the SHTF because I would refuse to ever let it happen to anyone. The Pistol's main purpose in my book is to prevent troops from running from battle in the first place. Sorry but that is life in the Army

[CobrayCommando]

I've seen it being used quite a few times in videos in Iraq for room clearing and such.

[Capt. Charlie]

Happened to me just yesterday.

Detective: "Um, Cap?...."

Me: "Hi Erik! What's up?"

Det.: "Um,.... did you know your gun's cocked, sir?"

Me: "Yup! Thanks."

Det.: "Um......" (worry lines present, not sure what to say )

Me: " Hmm. Erik, that Glock (17) you're packin's cocked too. Think about it."

Det.: "???.........., Yeah, I guess it is." (Walks away scratching head )

[BreacherUp!]

On the Battlefield a pistol is about worthless and out moded for killing as an effective weapon

Untrue. There have been numerous awards written up for OIF I/II where Marines have used their M9s effectively to kill insurgents.
Same was said about the bayonet. However I know of at least two instances, from one battalion, where the bayonet was also used effectively to turn off the life light of some insurgents.

[donglock26]

If the military forced soldiers to carry the 1911 with empty chambers because of ND's, why would PD's adopt it?

[Jack Malloy]

Military paridagams about weapons training are different than LE.
Remember, the military does a great job of taking people from any walk of life and training them for specialized situations across a broad spectrum of work projects and such.


Military training still has the core that it can take just about anybody and make them adequate at a variety of different chores.

Law enforcement training is a lot more narrow by nature. They can spend more time doing handgun training than the military does.

Also, military weapons training for handguns was designed around the m1911.
You have one soldier releave another soldier on duty and hand over his gun to him. Its just safer to have an empty chamber. And less wear and tear by cycling rounds.
Most ADs in the military take place when people were clearing guns and pointing the muzzles at the sand barrels, by the way. A friend of mine got shot in the head by a .45 when another guy pulled the trigger WITHOUT taking the mag out of the .45 first.
This is one reason why the Army wanted a weapon with a decocker, by the way.

So you have general service people who have limited time to be trained being trained to use a very, very specialized high performance weapon.
Which is why Condition 3 and Condition 4 are used by the military.

Notice that in LE circles the 1911 is still popular for SWAT type duty. Those officers have even MORE weapons training.

LE wants weapons that are SAFE first and high performance only for specialized units.



Remember, Law Enforcement had plenty of accidental discharges back when they issued double action revolvers, which are technically safer than any autoloader.
Accidents happen.

>>>If the military forced soldiers to carry the 1911 with empty chambers because of ND's, why would PD's adopt it?
<<<

[Marky]

Its real simple, they werent allowed to carry or use them, thats the answer, i dont know what all of the other typing is about.

[Jack Malloy]

Your answer is wrong though.
The fact is the 1911 was very popular with LE back in the 20s and 30s and was used heavily by them. Not just the Texas Rangers and the FBI either.
Remember, as late as the 1940s the Colt Single Action revolver was still a popular duty weapon in law enforcement in municipalities from New York to the southwest.
Many officers carried their newfangled autos with a loaded chamber and the hammer down and thumbed back the hammer on the draw as they had with their SA colt wheelguns.
the colt Pocket Autos in .380 were also popular back then. Let me refer you to the writings of Col. Charles Askins who was a lawman in those days. He carried both but threw away his pocket model after an AD.




The Double Action Revolver became standard following WWII for a variety of reasons.
First of all, it was cheap and available as surpluss (the Victory models). In rural West Virginia most cops carried Colt and S&W model 1917 service revolvers right up into the late sixties and early seventies. You saw more of them than you did any other gun in the coalfields.
Also, stories from poorly trained doughboys about the .45 autos kick and lack of accuracy led many shooters and lawmen to adopt wheelguns. ...Which were usually fired single action on each shot.
By the 1950s when the DA revolver became sort of standard, many people assumed there was a reason and would tend to make up stories such as "automatics jam" or "they are unsafe" when the real reason was usually very differrent --IE surpluss revolvers were cheaper, and .38 ammo was less expensive.


>>Its real simple, they werent allowed to carry or use them, thats the answer, i dont know what all of the other typing is about.
<<<

[delta58]

Yes, you're Glock is cocked and it doesn't have a safety!

[smince]

Yes, you're Glock is cocked and it doesn't have a safety!

The Glock is "half-cocked" until the trigger is fully depressed, and the INTERNAL safeties are released.

And don't forget about the "trigger safety".