Getting shot multiple times...but still keeps coming...internet legend and lore?

[markj]

My Uncle, Viet Nam was shot 6 times with a full auto rifle, he lives today, all in the upper torso. He moves slow but he is around.

Uncle Ben was caught in a naval assault on a beach he was on in Nam, they dropped a lot of bombs on this piece of beach, he has no liver and gets a full blood transfusion every week, he has over 30 little holes in his body and may retire soon.

Grandpa was a Bataan survivor he was shot up and forced to walk that walk. He has passed away but I will never forget his bravery and toughness that carried him thru.

Sometimes a guy dont kill so easy.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I don't think you could live without a liver from Nam times till now. You usually lose your liver and that's all she wrote. Spleen, kidneys?

[CelticWolf]

I remember like yesterday, When I was younger, growing up listening to my Grandfathers war stories. He was Army 8th infantry. Took the beaches of Normandy. And I can't recall how many times I heard about the time he shot this Nazi 7 times with his 1911 and he kept coming.

[Double Naught Spy]

Uncle Ben was caught in a naval assault on a beach he was on in Nam, they dropped a lot of bombs on this piece of beach, he has no liver and gets a full blood transfusion every week, he has over 30 little holes in his body and may retire soon.

Let's see, if your uncle is 154 lbs, then he has about 5.5 quarts of blood. I don't know when the beach assault was, but I would guess it was before February 1975, but will use Feb 1975 as a conservative estimate. So he gets a full transfusion of blood every week, that is 5.5 quarts, 52 times a year for the last 35 years...so 10,010 quarts or about 2502.5 gallons of blood.

That seems like a lot to me - so much so that I would think that your Uncle Ben would have had a transplant in the last 35 years. Having no liver would put him at the top of the transplant list because of the impending death. So why no liver transplant? He doesn't have a liver and hasn't retired? That seems a bit strange.

So I checked with the Liver Foundation. They say survival without a liver is impossible.
http://go.liverfoundation.org/site/T...eam&fr_id=1410

In fact, people regularly die when they are on the liver transplant waiting list. Death as a result of liver disease is supposed to b about the 12th leading cause of death. If people could be just kept alive with blood, then there would be a whole lot less deaths, I would think.

[kgpcr]

So many examples of exagerations here. The 8th Inf. Div. went ashore on june 7th. a day after the invasion. Also you cant live without a liver. Just not possible. Tales grow taller on down the line. The guy shooting at the guy behind the tree had a small gun. most likely a .22. You can see his hand does not show any signs of recoil. BIG difference between getting a .22 to the face and a .357 or a .40 or .45

[Greybeard]

Quote/Question: "So how many times have you personally seen someone get shot and still keep on the move"

No people, but many deer and feral hogs. Not unusual at all to have them run a good hundred yards or more after being shot thru the heart and/or both lungs with a 30/06 rifle - which has a heck of a lot more energy than the typical defensive handgun.

[Uncle Ben]

Read the story from a recent thread (closed) about officer Boarders. He took a shotgun wound to the head, and his aggressor took 6 shots (most to the torso) and did not go down until taking a shot through the eye and into the brain.

[45ACPShooter]

Spree killer Mark Essex's body was found with around 200 gunshot wounds in it from an M60 machine gun. I don't know how many of them he took while he was still alive though.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

OK - the liver story is BS - so let's get back to the topic.

[XD Gunner]

Not unusual at all to have them run a good hundred yards or more after being shot thru the heart and/or both lungs with a 30/06 rifle

I've never had a Whitetail run more than 25 feet after taking a heart and or both lungs shot. .30-30. Your deer on crack?

[ZeSpectre]

I'll repeat something I've posted before....

There are two aspects to being shot. The Psychological one where someone might go "oh Snap, I've been shot" and collapse in panic and terror, and the physical aspect of being shot. Hollywood has done an excellent job of training the general public to react to the psychology of being shot, but do you want to rely on Hollywood propaganda to save your life?

The majority of the time a human who gets shot thinks (Psychological) "oh, I've been injured, I don't want that to happen again" and ceases most/all aggressive actions.

BUT...those who don't do that (for whatever reason, drugs, psycho, high pain tolerance, adrenalin, distraction, etc.) will ONLY, let me stress that again, ONLYbe stopped by severe physical trauma in one (or more) of three areas.

1) Central nervous system disruption (brain, spine)...the electrical signals that control the body can no longer be sent.

2) Support structure (skeleton) disjunction...if you break the supporting structure (bones) the muscles have no levers to move the body about.

3) Exsanguination (bleeding out)...If the blood pressure drops below a certain point there is no longer an oxygen supply to the brain and the central nervous system shuts down (going back to #1)

1 and 2 can take place instantly with a good shot, #3 can take ANY amount of time from about 12 seconds (how many times could someone stab you in 12 seconds?) to several hours.

I was lightly grazed in the leg once on a call. It created a ugly stripe of a wound that eventually hurt like hell (like someone had dragged a red-hot branding iron across my upper leg....but I was so utterly keyed up by the situation that it completely failed to stop, or even slow me down significantly.

Afterward...hell yah it was a bear to deal with but the point is that -at that moment- the wound did NOT prevent me from functioning and I would have been fully able to beat that criminal senseless if I could have physically reached him. The only thing that would have stopped me -at that moment in time- would have been one (or more) of the "big three" listed above.

I also arrived on scene just after one man had put three .357 Magnum rounds into the upper torso of another man creating three sickening wounds but somehow missing the heart, lungs, and spine. The man who was shot was still able to beat the guy with the gun senseless AND walk into a hospital under his own power a little under 10 minutes later. He died shortly thereafter from blood loss but the point is that some humans are REALLY TOUGH so pain and psych are not necessarily going to help you, shot placement is the only guarantee and you get good at shot placement by training with what you are really going to use.

[KCabbage]

As others have said, one can take a number of shots and still keep coming and even live to tell the tale.

A officer shot a man twice through the heart with 2 .357 Mag Semi-Jacketed hollow points, his heart was DESTROYED! However, he managed to run over 100 yards away through a wooded area where he finally expired.

Another officer dumped 22 shots of .40 S&W into a suspect. 17 of which were COM (center of mass) shots. Suspect later died from his wounds, but fought till the end.

We could exchange these stories all day.

Stories like these should make one rethink the whole "caliber" debate.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by XD Gunner

I've never had a Whitetail run more than 25 feet after taking a heart and or both lungs shot. .30-30. Your deer on crack?

You've been lucky. I could give you many examples but here's one. I shot a doe at about 15 yards with a 12ga through both lungs and severed the aorta, she went 150+ yards.


Point being, deer and other animals eliminate the "psychological" aspect of being shot. They don't know what it means and will go on fighting until their brain fails. Sometimes, humans do the same thing. It's not legend or lore, it's indisputable fact.

Even with a destroyed heart and/or lungs, an animal or human may still have as much as 15 seconds of useful consciousness, from what I've read. Typically, it's closer to 6 seconds but that's still a LONG time in a life or death fight.

[Balog]

Given the numerous medical examiners reports and police AAR's that detail this happening, I don't know how anyone could doubt it.

[Erich]

I think the question is sort of meaningless without an examination of shot placement in the cases at issue. Eight shots in the liver are no guarantee to stop an aggressor; in what I've seen, a hole in the aorta or even a slight nick of the heart causing pericardial tamponade will do so.

I've worked in some capacity (I'm a lawyer) on a couple hundred handgun killing cases, on a few dozen cases involving killings with long guns, and on a few non-killing shooting cases. In these, I've seen several cases in which people were shot multiple times in the torso. I've never worked on a case in which a person was shot in the heart or aorta and continued aggressive action beyond that moment - regardless of how charged up/drunk/drugged the person was at the time. I've certainly seen a few cases in which a person was shot in the heart/aorta and remained on his feet for a brief time, but without further aggression.

A paramedic friend who was a PJ (who's observed the same thing) explained it to me: if I understand correctly, the enormous drop in blood pressure in the parts above the massively leaking heart/aorta wound (brain, arms) tends to rob the person of aggressive abilities by depriving the parts that need oxygen, etc., of what they need to go hard. Perhaps someone like Dr. Martin Fackler would be able to provide greater elucidation.

Anyhow, I've certainly not seen every case in the world, but I've yet to see someone take a single shot to the heart/aorta and continue aggressive action. Personally, I think that time spent studying Gray's Anatomy (available online) and considering precise shot-placement is better spent than all the caliber-chauvinistic hoorah we run across here on the int3rwebz.

http://www.bartleby.com/107/

[Double Naught Spy]

I think the question is sort of meaningless without an examination of shot placement in the cases at issue.

You know, it goes beyond just shot placement. Shot placement occurs outside of the body on the surface. That is where you aim...place your shots. How the round travels through the body involves trajectory, penetration, and sometimes deflection. I have read over several cases of rounds "placed" over the heart that managed to not hit the heart. At least 2 involved the wrong angle from entry (trajectory) and another involved deflection by the sternum. Two involved passing between the heart and lungs. Similarly, you can place a shot to the head, but if it fails to do the appropriate cerebral tissue damage, you fail to get a stop. People speak of the nasal occular triangle, but if the angle is wrong, you can put out a guy's eye and still completely miss the brain. A shot to the nose can pass beneath the brain.

One cannot reasonably aim at at which they can't see. So you shoot at the landmarks outside of the body, and often outside of the clothing, that are believed to mark the location of vital structures underneath. However, most are trained from a front-on and level perspective and cannot reliably tell you aim points for organs when the target is turned or firing angle is changed. They will not know the proper landmarks when shooting from a different angle such as when a suspect is turned or when there is an elevational difference between the suspect and the shooter.

[Erich]

That's why you study Gray's and you use bullets that are likely to penetrate adequately. Shot placement means targeting the vitals effectively.

Shot placement is king, adequate penetration is queen; everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

[pax]

Anyhow, I've certainly not seen every case in the world, but I've yet to see someone take a single shot to the heart/aorta and continue aggressive action.

Officer Stacey Lim's injuries and her actions subsequent to the shot that did those injuries are well-documented and widely reported.

There is an extended and quite detailed account -- albeit anonymous by terms of the grant that funded the research, one cannot possibly miss the story -- in David Klinger's excellent Into the Kill Zone. There is a videotape shown to all LFI-2 students where Officer Lim tells the story herself, and takes questions from students about her actions and her mindset while she acted. Her story is told by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman in his book On Combat. The event is well-documented and reported by numerous reputable sources.

Here are some places you can read the story online:

http://www.kcet.org/lifeandtimes/arc...8/20060817.php (transcript of a personal interview with Officer Lim, who said, "It shattered my spleen, put a hole in the base of my heart and cracked my rib and went out my back. It left about a tennis ball size hole in my back.")

http://www.aphf.org/92.html (her citation as Officer of the Year from the LAPD, which notes, " The bullet had penetrated her heart, and fragmented, damaging other vital organs.")

http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the...27#Stacy%20Lim (her Medal of Valor citation, which says, "The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver, destroyed her spleen, and exited through the center of her back, still with enough energy to penetrate her vehicle door, where it was later found. Critically wounded, the officer brought up her weapon and fired one round which struck her assailant. He then turned and ran, but the officer followed him and fired three more rounds, which hit and fatally wounded the gunman. He had fired all six of his bullets at Officer Lim, who now returned to the front of her vehicle to fight off any further attackers, unaware that the others had driven away in panic.")

All three of the above links contain details of her injury, including the fact that the .357 Magnum round passed through the lower portion of her heart -- and that after receiving that injury, Officer Stacy Lim returned fire, chased down her attacker and put him down, but passed out before she was able to get inside her home or call for assistance. Her roommate called for aid, and arriving medics found her without any vital signs. Nevertheless, she survived, made a full recovery and went back to work as an officer again.

Of course shot placement is king. Just an inch higher and she'd have been dead for sure ... but would she have been instantly stopped in such a case? I have my doubts. The only guaranteed instant stop is massive damage to parts of the nervous system. No matter how massive the damage, the circulatory system (including the heart) simply does not have the mechanism for an instant incapacitation. The brain remains active until it runs out of oxygen, which may take 30 seconds or more. A lot can happen in 30 seconds, as Officer Stacy Lim so valiantly demonstrated.

pax

[BurkGlocker]

I did not witness this shooting but I did witness the aftermath.

Dad was a maintenance man at our apartments. We got a call around 0200 and our neighbor behind us told us that there was a shooting across the hall from their apartment. Of course, dad saw me trying to go with him, and told me to stay put, but being 14, I didnt listen. He went and shortly after I followed. when I got to the apartment, the neighbor from upstairs of the apartment that had the shooting was trying to perform CPR on the victim. On the floor lay a small caliber pistol, and later finding out, it was a .22LR. Without going into the details of why it happened, he was shot 5 times in the chest, and kept going after the girl in the apartment. She shot him once in the head, almost perfectly between the eyes, and thats when he ran to the kitchen, they were assuming to grab a knife or something as a weapon. She then shot him twice more in the back of the head. All of her shots hit the mark, even the ones in the chest were all in the heart area. The one between the eyes, I still dont think killed him, but the ones to the base of the skull are what I think killed him.

Another shooting was a gang shooting in the parking lot, and this one I witnessed. One had a sawed-off double barrel shotgun, and when he lost the nerve to pull the trigger, the other guy ripped it from his hand and proceeded to blast both barrels into the crowd. After that, everyone started to run, but the two that got the brunt of the blast stayed on the ground, bleeding. One guy caught pellets (looked like small buck shot) a few in the face, the rest in the upper chest and shoulder. The other, was a female bystander/activist who got hit in the arm. There were probably more injured, but with the way they scattered, I never knew anymore details. But I do know that those two survived...

[Erich]

Pax, that's a tough officer! I've never seen anything like that in any of the cases I've worked. As I said, I can only report what I've seen - this would seem pretty extraordinary. Sounds like LAPD certainly thought so.

[kgpcr]

Well the story goes from penetrating the heart. to nicking the heart. HUGE difference. As for 22 rnds COM from a .40 and he is still in the fight that is BS.

Here are some places you can read the story online:

http://www.kcet.org/lifeandtimes/arc...8/20060817.php (transcript of a personal interview with Officer Lim, who said, "It shattered my spleen, put a hole in the base of my heart and cracked my rib and went out my back. It left about a tennis ball size hole in my back.")

http://www.aphf.org/92.html (her citation as Officer of the Year from the LAPD, which notes, " The bullet had penetrated her heart, and fragmented, damaging other vital organs.")

http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the...27#Stacy%20Lim (her Medal of Valor citation, which says, "The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver, destroyed her spleen, and exited through the center of her back, still with enough energy to penetrate her

[kgpcr]

Dad was a maintenance man at our apartments. We got a call around 0200 and our neighbor behind us told us that there was a shooting across the hall from their apartment. Of course, dad saw me trying to go with him, and told me to stay put, but being 14, I didnt listen. He went and shortly after I followed. when I got to the apartment, the neighbor from upstairs of the apartment that had the shooting was trying to perform CPR on the victim. On the floor lay a small caliber pistol, and later finding out, it was a .22LR. Without going into the details of why it happened, he was shot 5 times in the chest, and kept going after the girl in the apartment. She shot him once in the head, almost perfectly between the eyes, and thats when he ran to the kitchen, they were assuming to grab a knife or something as a weapon. She then shot him twice more in the back of the head. All of her shots hit the mark, even the ones in the chest were all in the heart area. The one between the eyes, I still dont think killed him, but the ones to the base of the skull are what I think killed him.

When we butchered cows when i was a kid on the farm we always used a .22 to the forehead to kill them. They dropped like a rock we slit their throat and that was it. Funny how a guy can get hit in the head so many times and keep going.

[cloud8a]

1st it is funny that someone checked with a liver org to verify that statement. 2nd I do not have a liver and took several rounds to the head back in 85, but here I sit typing on the ffffpmdlowdkdddjijd paint housel.

[Pompa Mike]

I worked as an Emergency Room Tech for several years. I've only seen one person actually being shot, A head shot at close range with an M-60 (Military Training accident) The poor guy was gone before he hit the ground, Still bothers me all these years later. As far as my Emergency Room experience, I've seen it go both ways. I saw people that took some fairly nasty hit's and they would still be sitting up and talking. One fellow took two close range shots with a small caliber pistol to the head and he was a handful to work on, he was strong and clearly somewhat confused as a result of two bullets to the brain. He did survive. I've seen cases where someone dies as a result of falling in the shower. It's certainly hard to say which way it will go. But generally my experience is that people aren't better off after getting shot.

[BillCA]

When I did my college work with the local coroner, police brought in a guy who had died in a pedestrian vs. car accident. Autopsy showed that he'd been shot through -- all the way through -- the heart with a 158gr .38 LSWC-HP round that failed to expand. How do we know this? Because the bullet was recovered from the lower lobe of his right lung where it had stopped. This was not the cause of death, however. Subsequent checks revealed he'd been shot in 13 years earlier - in 1964 - in a bar argument over who killed JFK (go figure). The heart had healed nicely (it's quite tough and elastic) as had the lung. What killed him was head trauma from contact with the car's hood and the pavement.

I am in violent agreement with those who suggest that shot placement is king and penetration is queen. But I'll also agree with Ze Spectre and Double Naught Spy that we are not trained to "see through" the body in 3D and aim for our target accordingly. Only by using either a 3D model or 3D imaging system can you get a good idea of your aim point at different angles.

For instance, the mid-sternum is not your aiming point if the target subject has turned slightly to the left, towards your partner. Your aim point will be either about his right nipple or the ribcage just ahead of a lowered arm (unfortunately, through his upper arm if he's shooting). These are critical factors to take into account. The spine also moves off-center when the body rotates.

Since most self-defense shootings are rapidly transpiring events, we are generally left with reliance on our training and reflexes to survive. Dropping your assailant is generally the result of good training, good ammo selection and a bit of luck at hitting something vital.

The human body is amazingly resilent and durable. Physical & Psychological conditioning account for a good portion of it's ability to survive extreme events. But it's that personal will to survive that often makes the difference.