New to Shotguns, seeking opinion on which to buy - Page 2

zippy13 · April 28, 2009, 11:44 PM

jg0001

So you can have another avenue to investigate, I'm going to suggest something different. How about a classic? Not your modern mass-produced ho-hum gun, but something that's a genuine shot-gunners shotgun. Of course, I'm thinking of the Winchester Model 12. As many call the pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 the Rifleman's Rifle, the M-12 has been called the Perfect Repeater. Model 12s range from barn beaters to beautiful trap and skeet versions.

Like the pre-'64 Model 70, the Model 12's high production costs placed them outside the competitive market 45 years ago. The rifle was re-engineered to lower costs, but the shotgun was discontinued. But, there have been limited run "resurrections" of the Model 12 by Winchester and Browning since '64. Most of them have been up-graded commemorative editions.

Before you cough-up the cash for some contemporary concoction of plastic and sheet metal, do yourself a favor and take a close look at a nice Model 12 Pigeon Grade. If you plan to have only one shotgun, why not make it something special?

Good luck,
Pete

BigJimP · April 29, 2009, 11:56 AM

A sig 226 is a step up from most of the DA/SA handguns out there - ( Glock, Springfield, etc ) .... so I understand you want something durable, that will last you a long time and be versatile.

If you want a semi-auto Benelli Super Sport, 12ga, I prefer a 30" but it comes in 28" barrel as well. It cycles quickly, shoots cleanly, easy to breakdown, modular in that you can put on different height comb pads, different butt pads to change length of pull. New it retails around here for about $ 1,850 / its a good all around gun for the money. It comes with 5 extended chokes - so it is ready to go right out of the case.

Gas operated semi-autos aren't bad guns - like Beretta 391, Browning gold, etc - but they shoot dirty, some don't cycle that quickly. Personally, I don't like all the gas in my face / I find myself hesitating on the 2nd shell - waiting for the gun to cycle. The Benelli Super Sport - I can shoot just like my O/U's with no hesitation.

The most versatile O/U's are monte carlo stocks, with adj combs in them - something around 8 to 8 1/2 lbs is about right. A gun that meets that spec is Browning XS Skeet - retailing new for around $ 2,750 / but there are some used ones around. Personally the XS-Skeet offers you a lot of gun for the money / it will come with 2 Skeet, one IC choke - so you will need to add a few chokes for Sporting clays and Trap. I like the Browning Midas grade external chokes ( but Briley etc make good chokes, about $ 50 each ). For a gun that will do every thing I recommend 2 Skeet, 2 IC, 2 Mod, 1 Imp Mod, 1 Full choke - so 8 chokes total.

If I wanted a gun that would shoot three shells - I would go with the Benelli Super Sport. None of the clay target games allow you to load 3 shells - so the O/U's dominate those games / allow you to have 2 different chokes in the barrels / keeps your hulls clean (if you reload ) vs picking them up all over.

Beretta does not make an O/U with a monte carlo comb - in the price range of the Browning XS Skeet ( I think their DT-10 is their only offer - everything else has a drop at the comb / or an angled stock ). Angled stocks are a problem - because if you shoot in a T shirt vs a heavy coat it puts your face at a different spot on the comb / making your point of impact change significantly at 30 or 40 yards. A monte carlo comb - parallel to the rib - is the way to go for 99% of us / and then adj the comb to fit each of us.

There are other options Perazzi, Blaser, etc - but you're into significantly more money ( $ 7,500 plus easily ) unless you find a used one.

Littlehoov · April 29, 2009, 12:17 PM

I think someone already suggested this, but I would just suggest it again.

Why not get a shotgun that has aftermarket support to get interchangeable barrels?

On the one hand, youd have a very effective SHOTgun that could use bird and buck shot and yes rifled slugs.

BUT, you could also get a rifled barrel for it, and shoot slugs much more effectively, basically turning your shotgun into a short range rifle.

Youd have a shotgun for HD, target, clays, or whatever else. Then with a barrel switch and some nice slugs you have something capable of engaging just about anything on this continent out to 100yds or so, possibly even farther.

6x6pinz · April 29, 2009, 09:53 PM

27 replies and no one suggested a Saiga 12, what is this world coming to. Here is a shotgun that is excellent for HD but yet can go to the range or field. One can modify the Saiga into what ever they want it to look like or leave it stock. Magazine capacity is from 2 to 20 rounds and will fire 2 3/4 or 3 depending on your need. The AK style action does not get any easier to maintain.
Yes I think benelli's are great guns, a bit overrated but still a great gun. Had to work on three this past duck season from weather related failures, never on my Saiga.
The best advice here is to get as many shotguns in your hands as possible, most likely the same thing you heard when shopping for your first handgun. There is no one shotgun that is great for all or we would all have one.

zippy13 · April 29, 2009, 11:14 PM

6x6pinz
The OP commented that the gun would be used for general target work. Since the Saiga 12 has no rib,

it's as useful at clay targets as a tennis racket is paddling a canoe.

jg0001 · April 30, 2009, 11:43 AM

I really appreciate all the info so far. You guys have given me a lot to think about.

I do want to restate two requirements...

(1) while I could stretch my way up to $2,000, I really don't want to go over that. I think $1500-$1800 is more my goal. I always end up spending a little more than I plan, but I don't want to spend 2x that. Both the Benelli's that fit that price range and the Beretta that have been mentioned repeatedly are interesting.

(2) I don't want to buy something with the intention of having to fiddle with it. While I may be interested in that later, from the start I would like a complete package. I'm not mixing and matching barrels, stocks, etc. I don't know enough to do so and would rather just buy a 'whole' gun in a form that is 90% of what I want. [Again, think Sig P226...]

And a few questions:
(1) I wasn't quite clear on the 'shoot dirty' thing mentioned above and why it applies to the Beretta but not the Benelli. Are they that different internally?

(2) I don't see that the question of barrel length has been addressed... what factors drive a person to go for a 26/28/30 inch barrel and for someone like me who is a relative novice just looking for something to learn and grow on at a range (not in any competition), should I care much?

BigJimP · April 30, 2009, 01:52 PM

Yes the internals on the Beretta and the Benelli are different.

The Beretta is a "gas operated" gun - where the gas from the combustion of the shell operates the bolt to cycle the gun. A "gas operated gun" tends to get pretty dirty / clog up after 4 - 6 boxes - but it depends on how dirty the shells are, reloads, cheap ammo. Cheap shells like Rio, Estate - are very dirty. Most of the premium shells like Remington STS are a lot cleaner. But if I was competing with a gas operated gun in a tournament - I would clean it after every 100 - 150 shells max - to make sure it was cycling properly - because if it fails, it may be a lost target.

The Benelli is not gas operated - its inertia operated / where the bolt rotates with the inertia. Without making this an engineering lecture - there are only 3 moving parts in a Benelli - the bolt, the inertia spring inside the bolt body and the rotating head on the bolt assembly - and the gas, smoke and any unburnt powder stays in the barrel - vs going thru a gas port into the mechanism.

Inertia guns shoot cleaner because of this - and in my opinion, cycle faster than most gas guns. On the gas guns I've owned and tested - I had to hesitate a fraction of a second while the action cycled to pull the trigger on the 2nd shell. On my Benelli Super Sport - I shoot it the same way I do my over unders - no hesitation on the 2nd shell.

Benelli super sport - has a synthetic stock - and in the stock are chevrons that compress on recoil - making it shoot soft. Gas guns bleed off gas to operate their systems - so it is softer shooting. Benelli calls their system Comfort Tech. A Benelli with a wood stock - will not have the Comfort Tech system - so it will have more recoil than a gas gun. With the Comfort Tech system - I think the Benelli and a gas gun give you about the same recoil.

On a light gun like a semi-auto / most of them are around 7 lbs - so go with a little longer barrel to add a little weight and give you a longer sight plane. A longer sight plane on a light gun - helps with the follow thru a little. On light and shorter guns - many of us have a tendancy to whip them around - rather than swing them fluidly. I also add a little weight to my Benelli super sport - because I like it a little heaver ( weight inside stock / inside foreend ) so it feels better to me / but I'm 6'5" and 290 lbs and I don't like a 7lb gun.

In an O/U I like 30" barrels too - but the overall length of an O/U with 30" barrels is the same as an O/U with 28" barrels. But the reason I like 30" barrels on an O/U is I like that gun at about 8 1/2 lbs. So in a lighter gun, I thinks its an advantage to shoot a little longer barrel - and a little longer gun overall ( so you don't whip it around ). The Benelli Super Sport is so light - that even my grandkids shoot it from 13 - 16 / its cool looking ( carbon fibre and stainless ) - and its light. It will also cycle all loads even down to 7/8 oz ( like a 20ga load ) as long as its at least 1200 fps - which is a pretty light load. The Benelli book says it won't cycle on light loads - but keeping it clean and well lubed ( a little on the wet side ) and mine has been perfect.

zippy13 · April 30, 2009, 02:48 PM

(Seems BigJimP beat me to the post again. So here's a rehash from a slightly different perspective)

The dirty gun question:
The Beretta and Benelli have two different operating systems. You're into handguns, and like everyone, you can appreciate the difference between a pistol and a revolver. But, are you aware of the different operating systems among various auto-loading pistol designs? They all look generally the same on the outside, but function differently inside. The same applies to auto-loading shotguns.

Think of the Benelli inertia system as a organized train wreck, or a cascade of dominoes: When the Benelli is fired, there are internal pieces that transfer the recoil energy from one to another. As these pieces move, the various functions necessary to cycle the gun take place.

Think of the Beretta as being powered by compressed air. Some of the high pressure gas, that's propelling the shot down the barrel, is vented off to provide the energy to recycle the gun. The Beretta is dirtier than the Benelli because the gas used to operate the mechanism contains particulate matter that accumulates. However, a great benefit of the gas system is that it absorbs much of the recoil energy that the Benelli system will deliver to you.

The makers of the Benelli add a lot of extra trick stuff in an attempt to reduce the "kick" to a level even with the Beretta. Of course, the same tricks could be applied to the Beretta to reduce it's recoil even further. To add to the confusion, Beretta (about to celebrate their 500th anniversary) acquired Benelli a few years ago. So the competition between them is not what it once was. Beretta used the old business model of: if you can't beat them, buy 'em.

What it comes down to: the Beretta and Benelli are both good guns; but, the Benelli "shoots cleaner" and costs more. If you conscientiously clean your gun after a weekend's target shooting, the Beretta may be your best bet. If you're an avid hunter, and your guns get cleaned infrequently, then the Benelli may be best for you.

The barrel length question:
A longer barrel does several things...
Minuses: It makes the gun heavier so it's a bigger bother to hump across country all day. It makes the gun easier for an aggressor to grab it.
Pluses: It provides a longer sighting radius, improving target accuracy. Makes the gun heavier so it absorbs more recoil and it swings smoother. And, arguably, it gives a minor improvement to the shot pattern.

The 26-inch skeet barrel is a thing of the past. Over the years, the score cards have shown that the so called fast pointing short barrels aren't as important as the smoother swinging longer ones. Most folks can get along just fine with a 28 or 30-inch barrel for everything. (My friend, BigJimP will recommend the 30" -- but someone smaller than average might prefer a 28.) The exception being long yardage handicap trap where the increased sighting radius of a longer "trap" barrel is required for a winning score.

BigJimP · April 30, 2009, 02:58 PM

And the Benelli Super Sport - just plain looks cooler ....( at least to my grandkids ) - and it would make a nice gun to go with your Sig ...

Here is my 12ga Super Sport Benelli
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...9&d=1226958132

A few of my Sig 226's ....
these are all stainless / one in 9mm and one in .40 S&W
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...3&d=1236370874

this is a Sig 226 X-Five race gun in .40 S&W
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...4&d=1236370943

Zippy is right of course / but the 391 isn't as cool.

hogdogs · April 30, 2009, 03:52 PM

OOOOO AHHHHH... PURDY GUNS!!!!! Okay got my dose of gun porn in... need a cigg now!
Brent

LordofWar · April 30, 2009, 04:09 PM

From O/Us to Semi autos I'd prefer a Beretta any fine day.

I have Xtreme2, Teknys Gold & Urika 2 Gold and they would just cycle any load flawlessly. I go all crazy at skeet with my semi autos a month or two before the hunting season doing some high volume shooting and during duck hunts. An average day would comprise of 300-400 shells a day and a Beretta hs never failed to cycle flawlessly without even a single malfunction.

They dont get that dirty either. Hardly takes 15 minutes to clean up.

I own a Benelli M3 Super 90 & it sucks with loads upto 32 gms. I was very excited when I got my hands on a Benelli considering its the biggest hassle to import firearms in my country and with hardly less than a 100 Benellis in the whole country but to my disapointment it was a major flop. I called Stoeger in the US and they referred me to their CRM office in Canada and they told me it might require some breakin so there I went all 300 36 gm magnum shells and it still doesnt cycle.

Boo for the Benelli. Thumbs up for the Beretta.

I also own a Winchester SX3 and that again is a wonderful semi auto. Aims naturally and low recoil. Fastest cycling of rounds btw. No wonder they call it the fastest semi auto shotgun.

American Rifleman · April 30, 2009, 04:15 PM

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but I suggest a pump Remington 870 for s shotgun.

maestro pistolero · April 30, 2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Benelli Super 90s are prone to malfunction with lighter loads.

My M1 super 90 functions fine with them. I shot up a bunch of reduced recoil slugs that were so light, it took 1/4 to 1/3 of a second for the action to cycle, but they still worked great. It was like bang, cha-chink

Quote:

However, a great benefit of the gas system is that it absorbs much of the recoil energy that the Benelli system will deliver to you.

But even the Benelli, being an auto loader, shoots a lot softer than ANY pump gun, which with magnum slugs is like Mike Tyson punching you in the shoulder.

LordofWar · April 30, 2009, 04:20 PM

Pumps I would only recommend for SD/HD.

But with weapons like Beretta and the SX3 you could you some multi-tasking with having to buy different shotguns serving different utilities.

SmokeyVol · April 30, 2009, 06:50 PM

I would recommend any one the same three shotguns I have:

Winchester Model 12 Pump - No. 3 on the Field & Stream "50 Best Guns Ever Made"

It is well known among the snobbier of shotgun enthusiasts that no repeating shotgun can handle as well as an over/under or a side-by-side. But there is one repeater that points like the Finger of Doom itself, the Model 12 pump. Introduced in 1914, the Model 12 lasted until 1976, when production costs drove it out of the Winchester lineup. It came in every shape and form-"from field models to riot guns to heavy waterfowl models-"and in all gauges, but it was as a competition gun that the Model 12 was perhaps most dominant. For decade after decade, if you did not shoot trap and skeet with a Model 12, you were an odd fellow. The Model 12 seemed to lock on a target and stay there, and you could not wear it out. Serious shooters would put several hundred thousand rounds through their guns, have some minor rebuilding done, and repeat the process. I've handled one Model 12 trap gun that had had a million shells shucked through it, and it was in much better health than its owner. And it shot fast. Well-broken-in Model 12s had a slickety-slack smoothness that let you shoot them as quickly as an auto. Winchester's great exhibition shooter Herb Parsons used to hold five clay targets in his left hand, throw them into the air, and break them all before they hit the ground, pumping his Model 12 faster than the eye could follow. The Model 12 has faded now, overshadowed by more modern guns, but in its time it was the repeater-"indeed, the shotgun-"against which all others were measured.

Remington 1100 Semiauto - No. 4 on the Field & Stream "50 Best Guns Ever Made"

Autoloading shotguns had been around for a long time by 1963, but the new Model 1100 was different. Previous self-loaders were heavy and handled like sledgehammers. If they were recoil operated, they kicked like mules. People tolerated them only because they offered three or more fast shots. The 1100, on the other hand, was sleek, moderate in weight, and handled splendidly. Most important, it had softened recoil. Its gas-operated action spread the rearward thrust of the gun over a long period of time and took the sting out of shooting. Trap and skeet competitors bought 1100s by the carload. New shooters, and people who otherwise would not be shooters, took to the 1100 as the one gun that would not beat the daylights out of them. The 1100 was not perfect. It would jam if you didn't keep its gas system clean, and it wouldn't digest every kind of shell you fed it. Once you really began to pour the rounds through, an 1100 would break, but it was easy to fix. Not a "fine" gun like the Model 12, no marvel of fit and finish, the 1100 made extensive use of stamped parts. But it was, and is, a revolutionary gun.

Reminton 870 Wingmaster Pump - No. 10 on the Field & Stream "50 Best Guns Ever Made"

Think of it as a Winchester Model 12 that is easy to manufacture. The Model 870 made its debut in 1950 as one of the first of Remington's "new generation" of guns that did away with the complex machining of the past. And it may be sacrilege to say so, but the plebian 870 is probably as good a gun as the aristocratic Model 12. It pumps just as fast, points as well, is just as reliable, and is unbelievably long-lived. The late shotgunning great Rudy Etchen put 4 million rounds through his 870 with just some minor parts replacement to keep it going. The 870 is still with us, made in every configuration known to man, and it will probably be around for many years more.

zippy13 · May 1, 2009, 03:02 PM

Happy to see another recommendation for a classic Winchester Model 12.

BigJimP · May 1, 2009, 03:27 PM

But the model 12 still doesn't have the " cool " factor ..... / not criticizing, just saying ... and I don't get many chances to be " cool " these days, so have to take them where I can .....

hogdogs · May 1, 2009, 03:55 PM

But is there an ATI folding paratrooper/swat/green beret/navy seal style stock for the model 12

And the requisite Barret .50 cal brake for the end?

Brent

BigJimP · May 1, 2009, 04:14 PM

Boy - I sure hope not Brent ...... / but there is always "duct tape" ...

johnwilliamson062 · May 1, 2009, 04:57 PM

My advice, and you should listen because I am a government trained chairborn ranger, buy a mossberg 500 and then send it here and have it industrial hard chromed. What can this shotgun NOT do? WHat punishment can it not take that another gun could?
Pick up a remington 870 at the store and mess with its ergonomics also, whichever one feels better is the choice, I just prefer the 500.
oops. I read your whole post. Well, if you are buying it for situations which will not require you to shoot more than 250 rounds semi-auto(clay singles you load one at a time), then the 11-87 and hardchrome it.

If you want to shoot it all weekend without pouring remoil in it then go with the Browning A5. My 11-87 gets clogged up after about ten rounds of clays.

I would at least look at the pumps seriously before you buy. Maybe your buddies own pumps and you already have, but if not...

jg0001 · May 2, 2009, 11:11 PM

BigJimP -- wow, that Benelli SuperSport is a real beauty. I think you've made a sale. It's a little on the high end, though. Any idea what price is good on these, relative to MSRP? (I'm used to 10% under MSRP on $1000+ handguns)

roy reali · May 2, 2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

I'd like it to be the following:
(1) 12 gauge (this is 'the' standard, no?)
(2) semi-auto
(3) generally black or neutral in color (i.e. not camo)
(4) I'm only likely to buy ONE of these anytime in the near future, so spending $700-$1400 is not a problem

Some have posted with replies recommending pump shotguns. The OP wants a semi-auto. Maybe us semi-auto types need to start typing a lot slower. I think the pump guys are getting confused. This borders on a childlike obsession.

zippy13 · May 3, 2009, 12:25 AM

jjg001

Judging from members' reports, there are some good deals to be had in today's economy. Ferreting out the best price is just part of the new gun experience. BigJimP (Mr. Benelli) is up to speed on gun prices, hopefully he'll have some good news for you.

I'm sure the other members will agree, now that you've decided on the Super Sport, don't cough any up cash until you've actually fired the Benelli and another gun on your short list. Different gun models have different feels -- just like Fords and Chevys have different ride qualities. It's not a matter of one being better than the other, they're just different. Only you can determine which feels right.

We look forward to reading your review after you've run a few hundred rounds through your new gun.

Good luck and good shooting
Pete

jg0001 · May 3, 2009, 09:26 AM

I should point out, I only buy new guns; so keep that in mind when figuring a price. I'll probably check in with the (only) two gun shops remotely nearby and see what price they come up with. I've just come too close to getting burned by both of them before, so I like to have an idea going in what is respectable.

jg0001 · May 3, 2009, 10:25 AM

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION:
Assume I buy the Benelli Super Sport (not that that exactly matters for the question)... what SHOT/SHELLS would you recommend for:

(1) simple range practice (provide Cabelas or MidwayUSA link if possible so that there's no misunderstanding)

(2) potential home defense

(3) maximum firepower (up to the gun's limits; I usually like to try out a bit of this, even if I don't shoot it regularly -- kind of like my S&W 500; the 350gr stuff kicks plenty, I don't need to shoot 500gr+, but I do like to have some of it)

I'm most interested in #1 above, since that is what I'd be buying in BULK. All the various shot/shell combos are a little overwhelming to a newb. Thanks.

April 30, 2009, 04:15 PM	#37
American Rifleman Junior Member Join Date: April 30, 2009 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 3	Don't know if it's been mentioned, but I suggest a pump Remington 870 for s shotgun. __________________ I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands"-Charlton Heston

May 1, 2009, 04:57 PM	#45
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	My advice, and you should listen because I am a government trained chairborn ranger, buy a mossberg 500 and then send it here and have it industrial hard chromed. What can this shotgun NOT do? WHat punishment can it not take that another gun could? Pick up a remington 870 at the store and mess with its ergonomics also, whichever one feels better is the choice, I just prefer the 500. oops. I read your whole post. Well, if you are buying it for situations which will not require you to shoot more than 250 rounds semi-auto(clay singles you load one at a time), then the 11-87 and hardchrome it. If you want to shoot it all weekend without pouring remoil in it then go with the Browning A5. My 11-87 gets clogged up after about ten rounds of clays. I would at least look at the pumps seriously before you buy. Maybe your buddies own pumps and you already have, but if not... Last edited by johnwilliamson062; May 1, 2009 at 05:08 PM.

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April 28, 2009, 11:44 PM	#26
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	jg0001 So you can have another avenue to investigate, I'm going to suggest something different. How about a classic? Not your modern mass-produced ho-hum gun, but something that's a genuine shot-gunners shotgun. Of course, I'm thinking of the Winchester Model 12. As many call the pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 the Rifleman's Rifle, the M-12 has been called the Perfect Repeater. Model 12s range from barn beaters to beautiful trap and skeet versions. Like the pre-'64 Model 70, the Model 12's high production costs placed them outside the competitive market 45 years ago. The rifle was re-engineered to lower costs, but the shotgun was discontinued. But, there have been limited run "resurrections" of the Model 12 by Winchester and Browning since '64. Most of them have been up-graded commemorative editions. Before you cough-up the cash for some contemporary concoction of plastic and sheet metal, do yourself a favor and take a close look at a nice Model 12 Pigeon Grade. If you plan to have only one shotgun, why not make it something special? Good luck, Pete

April 29, 2009, 11:56 AM	#27
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	A sig 226 is a step up from most of the DA/SA handguns out there - ( Glock, Springfield, etc ) .... so I understand you want something durable, that will last you a long time and be versatile. If you want a semi-auto Benelli Super Sport, 12ga, I prefer a 30" but it comes in 28" barrel as well. It cycles quickly, shoots cleanly, easy to breakdown, modular in that you can put on different height comb pads, different butt pads to change length of pull. New it retails around here for about $ 1,850 / its a good all around gun for the money. It comes with 5 extended chokes - so it is ready to go right out of the case. Gas operated semi-autos aren't bad guns - like Beretta 391, Browning gold, etc - but they shoot dirty, some don't cycle that quickly. Personally, I don't like all the gas in my face / I find myself hesitating on the 2nd shell - waiting for the gun to cycle. The Benelli Super Sport - I can shoot just like my O/U's with no hesitation. The most versatile O/U's are monte carlo stocks, with adj combs in them - something around 8 to 8 1/2 lbs is about right. A gun that meets that spec is Browning XS Skeet - retailing new for around $ 2,750 / but there are some used ones around. Personally the XS-Skeet offers you a lot of gun for the money / it will come with 2 Skeet, one IC choke - so you will need to add a few chokes for Sporting clays and Trap. I like the Browning Midas grade external chokes ( but Briley etc make good chokes, about $ 50 each ). For a gun that will do every thing I recommend 2 Skeet, 2 IC, 2 Mod, 1 Imp Mod, 1 Full choke - so 8 chokes total. If I wanted a gun that would shoot three shells - I would go with the Benelli Super Sport. None of the clay target games allow you to load 3 shells - so the O/U's dominate those games / allow you to have 2 different chokes in the barrels / keeps your hulls clean (if you reload ) vs picking them up all over. Beretta does not make an O/U with a monte carlo comb - in the price range of the Browning XS Skeet ( I think their DT-10 is their only offer - everything else has a drop at the comb / or an angled stock ). Angled stocks are a problem - because if you shoot in a T shirt vs a heavy coat it puts your face at a different spot on the comb / making your point of impact change significantly at 30 or 40 yards. A monte carlo comb - parallel to the rib - is the way to go for 99% of us / and then adj the comb to fit each of us. There are other options Perazzi, Blaser, etc - but you're into significantly more money ( $ 7,500 plus easily ) unless you find a used one.

April 29, 2009, 12:17 PM	#28
Littlehoov Member Join Date: March 3, 2009 Posts: 57	I think someone already suggested this, but I would just suggest it again. Why not get a shotgun that has aftermarket support to get interchangeable barrels? On the one hand, youd have a very effective SHOTgun that could use bird and buck shot and yes rifled slugs. BUT, you could also get a rifled barrel for it, and shoot slugs much more effectively, basically turning your shotgun into a short range rifle. Youd have a shotgun for HD, target, clays, or whatever else. Then with a barrel switch and some nice slugs you have something capable of engaging just about anything on this continent out to 100yds or so, possibly even farther.

April 29, 2009, 09:53 PM	#29
6x6pinz Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 152	27 replies and no one suggested a Saiga 12, what is this world coming to. Here is a shotgun that is excellent for HD but yet can go to the range or field. One can modify the Saiga into what ever they want it to look like or leave it stock. Magazine capacity is from 2 to 20 rounds and will fire 2 3/4 or 3 depending on your need. The AK style action does not get any easier to maintain. Yes I think benelli's are great guns, a bit overrated but still a great gun. Had to work on three this past duck season from weather related failures, never on my Saiga. The best advice here is to get as many shotguns in your hands as possible, most likely the same thing you heard when shopping for your first handgun. There is no one shotgun that is great for all or we would all have one.

April 29, 2009, 11:14 PM	#30
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	6x6pinz The OP commented that the gun would be used for general target work. Since the Saiga 12 has no rib, it's as useful at clay targets as a tennis racket is paddling a canoe.

April 30, 2009, 11:43 AM	#31
jg0001 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2007 Posts: 551	I really appreciate all the info so far. You guys have given me a lot to think about. I do want to restate two requirements... (1) while I could stretch my way up to $2,000, I really don't want to go over that. I think $1500-$1800 is more my goal. I always end up spending a little more than I plan, but I don't want to spend 2x that. Both the Benelli's that fit that price range and the Beretta that have been mentioned repeatedly are interesting. (2) I don't want to buy something with the intention of having to fiddle with it. While I may be interested in that later, from the start I would like a complete package. I'm not mixing and matching barrels, stocks, etc. I don't know enough to do so and would rather just buy a 'whole' gun in a form that is 90% of what I want. [Again, think Sig P226...] And a few questions: (1) I wasn't quite clear on the 'shoot dirty' thing mentioned above and why it applies to the Beretta but not the Benelli. Are they that different internally? (2) I don't see that the question of barrel length has been addressed... what factors drive a person to go for a 26/28/30 inch barrel and for someone like me who is a relative novice just looking for something to learn and grow on at a range (not in any competition), should I care much?

April 30, 2009, 01:52 PM	#32
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Yes the internals on the Beretta and the Benelli are different. The Beretta is a "gas operated" gun - where the gas from the combustion of the shell operates the bolt to cycle the gun. A "gas operated gun" tends to get pretty dirty / clog up after 4 - 6 boxes - but it depends on how dirty the shells are, reloads, cheap ammo. Cheap shells like Rio, Estate - are very dirty. Most of the premium shells like Remington STS are a lot cleaner. But if I was competing with a gas operated gun in a tournament - I would clean it after every 100 - 150 shells max - to make sure it was cycling properly - because if it fails, it may be a lost target. The Benelli is not gas operated - its inertia operated / where the bolt rotates with the inertia. Without making this an engineering lecture - there are only 3 moving parts in a Benelli - the bolt, the inertia spring inside the bolt body and the rotating head on the bolt assembly - and the gas, smoke and any unburnt powder stays in the barrel - vs going thru a gas port into the mechanism. Inertia guns shoot cleaner because of this - and in my opinion, cycle faster than most gas guns. On the gas guns I've owned and tested - I had to hesitate a fraction of a second while the action cycled to pull the trigger on the 2nd shell. On my Benelli Super Sport - I shoot it the same way I do my over unders - no hesitation on the 2nd shell. Benelli super sport - has a synthetic stock - and in the stock are chevrons that compress on recoil - making it shoot soft. Gas guns bleed off gas to operate their systems - so it is softer shooting. Benelli calls their system Comfort Tech. A Benelli with a wood stock - will not have the Comfort Tech system - so it will have more recoil than a gas gun. With the Comfort Tech system - I think the Benelli and a gas gun give you about the same recoil. On a light gun like a semi-auto / most of them are around 7 lbs - so go with a little longer barrel to add a little weight and give you a longer sight plane. A longer sight plane on a light gun - helps with the follow thru a little. On light and shorter guns - many of us have a tendancy to whip them around - rather than swing them fluidly. I also add a little weight to my Benelli super sport - because I like it a little heaver ( weight inside stock / inside foreend ) so it feels better to me / but I'm 6'5" and 290 lbs and I don't like a 7lb gun. In an O/U I like 30" barrels too - but the overall length of an O/U with 30" barrels is the same as an O/U with 28" barrels. But the reason I like 30" barrels on an O/U is I like that gun at about 8 1/2 lbs. So in a lighter gun, I thinks its an advantage to shoot a little longer barrel - and a little longer gun overall ( so you don't whip it around ). The Benelli Super Sport is so light - that even my grandkids shoot it from 13 - 16 / its cool looking ( carbon fibre and stainless ) - and its light. It will also cycle all loads even down to 7/8 oz ( like a 20ga load ) as long as its at least 1200 fps - which is a pretty light load. The Benelli book says it won't cycle on light loads - but keeping it clean and well lubed ( a little on the wet side ) and mine has been perfect.

April 30, 2009, 02:48 PM	#33
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	(Seems BigJimP beat me to the post again. So here's a rehash from a slightly different perspective) The dirty gun question: The Beretta and Benelli have two different operating systems. You're into handguns, and like everyone, you can appreciate the difference between a pistol and a revolver. But, are you aware of the different operating systems among various auto-loading pistol designs? They all look generally the same on the outside, but function differently inside. The same applies to auto-loading shotguns. Think of the Benelli inertia system as a organized train wreck, or a cascade of dominoes: When the Benelli is fired, there are internal pieces that transfer the recoil energy from one to another. As these pieces move, the various functions necessary to cycle the gun take place. Think of the Beretta as being powered by compressed air. Some of the high pressure gas, that's propelling the shot down the barrel, is vented off to provide the energy to recycle the gun. The Beretta is dirtier than the Benelli because the gas used to operate the mechanism contains particulate matter that accumulates. However, a great benefit of the gas system is that it absorbs much of the recoil energy that the Benelli system will deliver to you. The makers of the Benelli add a lot of extra trick stuff in an attempt to reduce the "kick" to a level even with the Beretta. Of course, the same tricks could be applied to the Beretta to reduce it's recoil even further. To add to the confusion, Beretta (about to celebrate their 500th anniversary) acquired Benelli a few years ago. So the competition between them is not what it once was. Beretta used the old business model of: if you can't beat them, buy 'em. What it comes down to: the Beretta and Benelli are both good guns; but, the Benelli "shoots cleaner" and costs more. If you conscientiously clean your gun after a weekend's target shooting, the Beretta may be your best bet. If you're an avid hunter, and your guns get cleaned infrequently, then the Benelli may be best for you. The barrel length question: A longer barrel does several things... Minuses: It makes the gun heavier so it's a bigger bother to hump across country all day. It makes the gun easier for an aggressor to grab it. Pluses: It provides a longer sighting radius, improving target accuracy. Makes the gun heavier so it absorbs more recoil and it swings smoother. And, arguably, it gives a minor improvement to the shot pattern. The 26-inch skeet barrel is a thing of the past. Over the years, the score cards have shown that the so called fast pointing short barrels aren't as important as the smoother swinging longer ones. Most folks can get along just fine with a 28 or 30-inch barrel for everything. (My friend, BigJimP will recommend the 30" -- but someone smaller than average might prefer a 28.) The exception being long yardage handicap trap where the increased sighting radius of a longer "trap" barrel is required for a winning score.

April 30, 2009, 02:58 PM	#34
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	And the Benelli Super Sport - just plain looks cooler ....( at least to my grandkids ) - and it would make a nice gun to go with your Sig ... Here is my 12ga Super Sport Benelli http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...9&d=1226958132 A few of my Sig 226's .... these are all stainless / one in 9mm and one in .40 S&W http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...3&d=1236370874 this is a Sig 226 X-Five race gun in .40 S&W http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...4&d=1236370943 Zippy is right of course / but the 391 isn't as cool.

April 30, 2009, 03:52 PM	#35
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	OOOOO AHHHHH... PURDY GUNS!!!!! Okay got my dose of gun porn in... need a cigg now! Brent

April 30, 2009, 04:09 PM	#36
LordofWar Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Location: Pakistan Posts: 646	From O/Us to Semi autos I'd prefer a Beretta any fine day. I have Xtreme2, Teknys Gold & Urika 2 Gold and they would just cycle any load flawlessly. I go all crazy at skeet with my semi autos a month or two before the hunting season doing some high volume shooting and during duck hunts. An average day would comprise of 300-400 shells a day and a Beretta hs never failed to cycle flawlessly without even a single malfunction. They dont get that dirty either. Hardly takes 15 minutes to clean up. I own a Benelli M3 Super 90 & it sucks with loads upto 32 gms. I was very excited when I got my hands on a Benelli considering its the biggest hassle to import firearms in my country and with hardly less than a 100 Benellis in the whole country but to my disapointment it was a major flop. I called Stoeger in the US and they referred me to their CRM office in Canada and they told me it might require some breakin so there I went all 300 36 gm magnum shells and it still doesnt cycle. Boo for the Benelli. Thumbs up for the Beretta. I also own a Winchester SX3 and that again is a wonderful semi auto. Aims naturally and low recoil. Fastest cycling of rounds btw. No wonder they call it the fastest semi auto shotgun.

April 30, 2009, 04:20 PM	#39
LordofWar Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Location: Pakistan Posts: 646	Pumps I would only recommend for SD/HD. But with weapons like Beretta and the SX3 you could you some multi-tasking with having to buy different shotguns serving different utilities.

April 30, 2009, 06:50 PM	#40
SmokeyVol Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 137	I would recommend any one the same three shotguns I have: Winchester Model 12 Pump - No. 3 on the Field & Stream "50 Best Guns Ever Made" It is well known among the snobbier of shotgun enthusiasts that no repeating shotgun can handle as well as an over/under or a side-by-side. But there is one repeater that points like the Finger of Doom itself, the Model 12 pump. Introduced in 1914, the Model 12 lasted until 1976, when production costs drove it out of the Winchester lineup. It came in every shape and form-"from field models to riot guns to heavy waterfowl models-"and in all gauges, but it was as a competition gun that the Model 12 was perhaps most dominant. For decade after decade, if you did not shoot trap and skeet with a Model 12, you were an odd fellow. The Model 12 seemed to lock on a target and stay there, and you could not wear it out. Serious shooters would put several hundred thousand rounds through their guns, have some minor rebuilding done, and repeat the process. I've handled one Model 12 trap gun that had had a million shells shucked through it, and it was in much better health than its owner. And it shot fast. Well-broken-in Model 12s had a slickety-slack smoothness that let you shoot them as quickly as an auto. Winchester's great exhibition shooter Herb Parsons used to hold five clay targets in his left hand, throw them into the air, and break them all before they hit the ground, pumping his Model 12 faster than the eye could follow. The Model 12 has faded now, overshadowed by more modern guns, but in its time it was the repeater-"indeed, the shotgun-"against which all others were measured. Remington 1100 Semiauto - No. 4 on the Field & Stream "50 Best Guns Ever Made" Autoloading shotguns had been around for a long time by 1963, but the new Model 1100 was different. Previous self-loaders were heavy and handled like sledgehammers. If they were recoil operated, they kicked like mules. People tolerated them only because they offered three or more fast shots. The 1100, on the other hand, was sleek, moderate in weight, and handled splendidly. Most important, it had softened recoil. Its gas-operated action spread the rearward thrust of the gun over a long period of time and took the sting out of shooting. Trap and skeet competitors bought 1100s by the carload. New shooters, and people who otherwise would not be shooters, took to the 1100 as the one gun that would not beat the daylights out of them. The 1100 was not perfect. It would jam if you didn't keep its gas system clean, and it wouldn't digest every kind of shell you fed it. Once you really began to pour the rounds through, an 1100 would break, but it was easy to fix. Not a "fine" gun like the Model 12, no marvel of fit and finish, the 1100 made extensive use of stamped parts. But it was, and is, a revolutionary gun. Reminton 870 Wingmaster Pump - No. 10 on the Field & Stream "50 Best Guns Ever Made" Think of it as a Winchester Model 12 that is easy to manufacture. The Model 870 made its debut in 1950 as one of the first of Remington's "new generation" of guns that did away with the complex machining of the past. And it may be sacrilege to say so, but the plebian 870 is probably as good a gun as the aristocratic Model 12. It pumps just as fast, points as well, is just as reliable, and is unbelievably long-lived. The late shotgunning great Rudy Etchen put 4 million rounds through his 870 with just some minor parts replacement to keep it going. The 870 is still with us, made in every configuration known to man, and it will probably be around for many years more.

May 1, 2009, 03:02 PM	#41
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Happy to see another recommendation for a classic Winchester Model 12.

May 1, 2009, 03:27 PM	#42
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	But the model 12 still doesn't have the " cool " factor ..... / not criticizing, just saying ... and I don't get many chances to be " cool " these days, so have to take them where I can .....

May 1, 2009, 03:55 PM	#43
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	But is there an ATI folding paratrooper/swat/green beret/navy seal style stock for the model 12 And the requisite Barret .50 cal brake for the end? Brent

May 1, 2009, 04:14 PM	#44
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Boy - I sure hope not Brent ...... / but there is always "duct tape" ...

May 2, 2009, 11:11 PM	#46
jg0001 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2007 Posts: 551	BigJimP -- wow, that Benelli SuperSport is a real beauty. I think you've made a sale. It's a little on the high end, though. Any idea what price is good on these, relative to MSRP? (I'm used to 10% under MSRP on $1000+ handguns)

May 3, 2009, 12:25 AM	#48
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	jjg001 Judging from members' reports, there are some good deals to be had in today's economy. Ferreting out the best price is just part of the new gun experience. BigJimP (Mr. Benelli) is up to speed on gun prices, hopefully he'll have some good news for you. I'm sure the other members will agree, now that you've decided on the Super Sport, don't cough any up cash until you've actually fired the Benelli and another gun on your short list. Different gun models have different feels -- just like Fords and Chevys have different ride qualities. It's not a matter of one being better than the other, they're just different. Only you can determine which feels right. We look forward to reading your review after you've run a few hundred rounds through your new gun. Good luck and good shooting Pete

May 3, 2009, 09:26 AM	#49
jg0001 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2007 Posts: 551	I should point out, I only buy new guns; so keep that in mind when figuring a price. I'll probably check in with the (only) two gun shops remotely nearby and see what price they come up with. I've just come too close to getting burned by both of them before, so I like to have an idea going in what is respectable.

May 3, 2009, 10:25 AM	#50
jg0001 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2007 Posts: 551	FOLLOW-UP QUESTION: Assume I buy the Benelli Super Sport (not that that exactly matters for the question)... what SHOT/SHELLS would you recommend for: (1) simple range practice (provide Cabelas or MidwayUSA link if possible so that there's no misunderstanding) (2) potential home defense (3) maximum firepower (up to the gun's limits; I usually like to try out a bit of this, even if I don't shoot it regularly -- kind of like my S&W 500; the 350gr stuff kicks plenty, I don't need to shoot 500gr+, but I do like to have some of it) I'm most interested in #1 above, since that is what I'd be buying in BULK. All the various shot/shell combos are a little overwhelming to a newb. Thanks.