Firearm related injury, need help!

ElCid1756 · May 25, 2012, 10:25 PM

I need help figuring out what happened to my buddy while we were out shooting.
We were firing my Mosin Nagant and we were through about 30 rounds. He fired, and somehow this casing became stuck in his hand, and it went COMPLETELY THROUGH! The gun did not malfunction, I checked it over thoroughly and there are no cracks, dents, holes, or anything; plus the spent casing was still in the chamber when I began inspecting the weapon. As you can see from the pic, the casing is both chipped and melted. I tried looking for a bullet in the grass, but it was too dark, so I am trying in the morning. When he gets back from the hospital I will further examine it to see what happened. But for now, does anyone have any theories?
We were firing Russian 7.62x54R non-corrosive berdan primed ammunition that we bought this evening at Gander Mountain. It comes in a white box with no real distinguishing features; this is the first time I have shot this particular ammo.
Again, any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Warning! Attached image contains blood/gore. Viewer discretion is advised.

BloodOmen911 · May 25, 2012, 10:32 PM

My question is: Where in the hell did that casing come from??? That's insane! Some kind of one-in a-million chance ricochet accidents?

Hansam · May 25, 2012, 10:34 PM

Hmm... I've owned and shot a handful of Mosin Nagants and honestly without obvious serious malfunction of the gun itself I'm not sure HOW that would happen.

You say the injury is the actual casing itself penetrating THROUGH his hand? From one side of the hand to the other? Yet there is no obvious malfunction of the firearm itself and no clear damage to the gun? Even stranger yet - most Russian ammo is steel cased. This one looks like it might actually be brass...

Puzzling... befuddling... confounding... just plain confusing. I haven't got a clue but I hope your friend is alright.

All that aside I think someone out there might have something against your friend...

ElCid1756 · May 25, 2012, 10:48 PM

The only thing that I can think of that could have caused this is if he was holding a round in his hand while he was firing. Can something like that even happen? Maybe a defective primer ignited due to the pressure wave when he fired?

BloodOmen911 · May 25, 2012, 10:52 PM

I'm still certain it was a crazy ricochet accident. I've seen similar accidents when people shoot in rocky areas

brmfan · May 25, 2012, 10:59 PM

How can the casing be still in the chamber AND through his hand at the same time? I smell steer flatulence in the air.....

ElCid1756 · May 25, 2012, 11:02 PM

Thats just it though, beyond our target was an open, plowed field with dense woods about 1/2 a mile away. The injury happened instantly, so it couldn't have really been a ricochet. We were also picking up our spent casings as we shot, so it couldn't have been any of those.

ElCid1756 · May 25, 2012, 11:04 PM

@brmfan

I'm saying that the injury couldn't have been from the round he shot, since the casing was still in the chamber; ergo, it must have been caused by an external source...

BloodOmen911 · May 25, 2012, 11:08 PM

Hmm... I'm going to go ahead and blame the Soviets on this one

not because your gun is Russian, just because those Soviets are always plottin' something!

brmfan · May 25, 2012, 11:28 PM

That type of injury can be caused by only one thing... Chupacabra!

youngunz4life · May 25, 2012, 11:42 PM

stranger things have happened.......there are innocent people in prison for life via very odd, improbable coincidences (as you know they make movies about it too lol)

shot from another rifle? I guarantee the 99.99% doubt in it but did you look to see if the manfacturer was the same ammo in case it was an accidental shot from someone else from pretty much anywhere with impeccable timing?

**Bud Helms** · May 26, 2012, 12:04 AM

What ElCid said.

The question is, what caused the cartridge that was outside the chamber to cook off when the one that was chambered was fired.

Is it possible that the primer was somehow was struck by some part of the rifle during recoil if it was held in the support hand while firing?

ElCid1756 · May 26, 2012, 12:18 AM

Mystery solved.
He just got back from the hospital and it turns out that it was a ricochet.
It just expanded in such a way that it looked like a spent casing when covered in blood and sticking through flesh...
The jacket tore off and flew back 30ish yards and still went through his hand,
lucky it hit his hand instead of his face.
Anyway, thanks for your input and concern, looks like he might need surgery to repair some tendons

BloodOmen911 · May 26, 2012, 12:23 AM

HA, BloodOmen911, Private Investigator

It's crazy how fast those ricochets happen! It seems almost instant.

**JohnKSa** · May 26, 2012, 01:11 AM

Quote:

He just got back from the hospital and it turns out that it was a ricochet.

That had to be it. When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth.

With the case left in the chamber and the chamber uncompromised, the injury had to have resulted from a ricochet.

Quote:

Maybe a defective primer ignited due to the pressure wave when he fired?

So improbable as to be impossible. If that could happen, we'd hear about rounds in magazines going off when guns were fired. After all, the uppermost round in the magazine is in very close proximity to the round being fired. If a pressure wave could ignite a primer it would happen at least once in awhile to the top round in the mag.

By the way, in case it doesn't go without saying, you need to find out what caused the ricochet before you shoot there again. The injury appears to be pretty severe, but it could have been much worse.

Discern · May 26, 2012, 01:09 PM

Sounds like you need to shoot at a place that has a backstop. A field can have rocks, a sweep/shovel from a cultivator or other hard objects. Also sounds like you were shooting in low light conditions. Hard to know if a person would be walking in that plowed field or woods. Just some things to consider.

Eagleks · May 27, 2012, 01:33 AM

I never thought about richochets where I was shooting, the chances of one was extremely extremely slim ...... until one day one went flying literally right by and slightly kissed my ear as it went by ..... that was a shock and gave me a lot of pause. A LOT ... of pause.

Glad it was his hand, and not worse than it already was.

toggy · June 8, 2012, 08:35 PM

Wow, I was just googling the Russian 7.62x54R non-corrosive berdan primed ammunition in a white box that I bought this evening at Gander Mountain. This page is where I ended up. Jeez.

rickyrick · June 8, 2012, 09:10 PM

I was gonna reply that that material looked exactly like the jackets on some steel core ammo from my mosin that I have examined in the dirt. But the mystery is solved

FoghornLeghorn · June 8, 2012, 10:03 PM

Quote:

When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth.

So, you gonna give Arther Conan Doyle credit for that quote?

MLeake · June 8, 2012, 10:11 PM

Why would he? Doyle gave credit to Occam.

(Occam's Razor)

**JohnKSa** · June 8, 2012, 10:14 PM

Figured it was common knowledge... You are correct, it's a quote from Sherlock Holmes--used in more than one of the stories, IIRC.

hellokitty · June 10, 2012, 09:50 PM

some kind of wierd ricochet dude....how far away was the target/backstop/whatever you were shooting at?

May 25, 2012, 10:32 PM	#2
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	My question is: Where in the hell did that casing come from??? That's insane! Some kind of one-in a-million chance ricochet accidents? __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

May 25, 2012, 10:34 PM	#3
Hansam Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2012 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 763	Hmm... I've owned and shot a handful of Mosin Nagants and honestly without obvious serious malfunction of the gun itself I'm not sure HOW that would happen. You say the injury is the actual casing itself penetrating THROUGH his hand? From one side of the hand to the other? Yet there is no obvious malfunction of the firearm itself and no clear damage to the gun? Even stranger yet - most Russian ammo is steel cased. This one looks like it might actually be brass... Puzzling... befuddling... confounding... just plain confusing. I haven't got a clue but I hope your friend is alright. All that aside I think someone out there might have something against your friend... __________________ This is who we are, what we do.

May 25, 2012, 10:52 PM	#5
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	I'm still certain it was a crazy ricochet accident. I've seen similar accidents when people shoot in rocky areas __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

May 25, 2012, 11:08 PM	#9
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	Hmm... I'm going to go ahead and blame the Soviets on this one not because your gun is Russian, just because those Soviets are always plottin' something! __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

May 25, 2012, 11:42 PM	#11
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	spock's theory on improbable actions do to process of elimination? stranger things have happened.......there are innocent people in prison for life via very odd, improbable coincidences (as you know they make movies about it too lol) shot from another rifle? I guarantee the 99.99% doubt in it but did you look to see if the manfacturer was the same ammo in case it was an accidental shot from someone else from pretty much anywhere with impeccable timing? __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

May 25, 2012, 10:48 PM	#4
ElCid1756 Junior Member Join Date: May 25, 2012 Posts: 5	The only thing that I can think of that could have caused this is if he was holding a round in his hand while he was firing. Can something like that even happen? Maybe a defective primer ignited due to the pressure wave when he fired?

May 25, 2012, 10:59 PM	#6
brmfan Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Posts: 557	How can the casing be still in the chamber AND through his hand at the same time? I smell steer flatulence in the air.....

May 25, 2012, 11:02 PM	#7
ElCid1756 Junior Member Join Date: May 25, 2012 Posts: 5	Thats just it though, beyond our target was an open, plowed field with dense woods about 1/2 a mile away. The injury happened instantly, so it couldn't have really been a ricochet. We were also picking up our spent casings as we shot, so it couldn't have been any of those.

May 25, 2012, 11:04 PM	#8
ElCid1756 Junior Member Join Date: May 25, 2012 Posts: 5	@brmfan I'm saying that the injury couldn't have been from the round he shot, since the casing was still in the chamber; ergo, it must have been caused by an external source...

May 25, 2012, 11:28 PM	#10
brmfan Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Posts: 557	That type of injury can be caused by only one thing... Chupacabra!

May 26, 2012, 12:04 AM	#12
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	What ElCid said. The question is, what caused the cartridge that was outside the chamber to cook off when the one that was chambered was fired. Is it possible that the primer was somehow was struck by some part of the rifle during recoil if it was held in the support hand while firing?

May 26, 2012, 12:18 AM	#13
ElCid1756 Junior Member Join Date: May 25, 2012 Posts: 5	Mystery solved. He just got back from the hospital and it turns out that it was a ricochet. It just expanded in such a way that it looked like a spent casing when covered in blood and sticking through flesh... The jacket tore off and flew back 30ish yards and still went through his hand, lucky it hit his hand instead of his face. Anyway, thanks for your input and concern, looks like he might need surgery to repair some tendons

May 26, 2012, 12:23 AM	#14
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	HA, BloodOmen911, Private Investigator It's crazy how fast those ricochets happen! It seems almost instant. __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

May 26, 2012, 01:09 PM	#16
Discern Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 471	Sounds like you need to shoot at a place that has a backstop. A field can have rocks, a sweep/shovel from a cultivator or other hard objects. Also sounds like you were shooting in low light conditions. Hard to know if a person would be walking in that plowed field or woods. Just some things to consider.

May 27, 2012, 01:33 AM	#17
Eagleks Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 575	I never thought about richochets where I was shooting, the chances of one was extremely extremely slim ...... until one day one went flying literally right by and slightly kissed my ear as it went by ..... that was a shock and gave me a lot of pause. A LOT ... of pause. Glad it was his hand, and not worse than it already was.

June 8, 2012, 08:35 PM	#18
toggy Junior Member Join Date: June 8, 2012 Posts: 14	Wow, I was just googling the Russian 7.62x54R non-corrosive berdan primed ammunition in a white box that I bought this evening at Gander Mountain. This page is where I ended up. Jeez.

June 8, 2012, 09:10 PM	#19
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,237	I was gonna reply that that material looked exactly like the jackets on some steel core ammo from my mosin that I have examined in the dirt. But the mystery is solved __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

June 8, 2012, 10:11 PM	#21
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Why would he? Doyle gave credit to Occam. (Occam's Razor)

June 8, 2012, 10:14 PM	#22
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,989	Figured it was common knowledge... You are correct, it's a quote from Sherlock Holmes--used in more than one of the stories, IIRC. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

June 10, 2012, 09:50 PM	#23
hellokitty Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Location: milwaukee, WI Posts: 14	some kind of wierd ricochet dude....how far away was the target/backstop/whatever you were shooting at? __________________ this is where i put all the guns i own. or a good quote.