Savage failing to make groups

NaCl Assassin · September 7, 2011, 09:39 PM

Hey, this is my first choice, but me and my roommate are going out of our minds trying to solve the problem. We both have Savage 111fcxp3 rifles, mine with an inherited Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40 scope on top in the 7mm Rem Mag caliber and my roommate with the stock bushnell 3-9x40 scope and 30-06 caliber. We CANNOT make groups to save our lives. We can zero perfectly fine at 25-50yrds and when we push it out to 100 yrds it gets more difficult to narrow down our groups so we settle for a general, loose zero, but when we push out to 200 yrds, our so called groups spread out almost two feet with random shots all over. Both of us. Normally I would dismiss a post like this to poor shooters, but we can both hit clay pigeons with open sites on a .22LR out near 75 yrds. Our scopes are snug and lock tighted. Is it the stocks throwing our shots off so crazy? Can the free float be that bad? If so, would sanding down the edges of the plastic stocks damage it at all? I'm thinking about getting a new stock from Manners stocks, but I want to make sure thats the problem before I start saving for a new one. I'm no gunsmith so I don't have a clue about what to do. Thanks for all your help guys.

big al hunter · September 7, 2011, 10:17 PM

Have you tried different brands/bullet weight of ammo? Are the groups getting randomly larger or stringing left or right or vertical? Did you allow the rifles to cool between shots and groups? If you shot on hot barrels the groups can grow amazingly large. More info about what you did will help diagnose the problem.

NaCl Assassin · September 7, 2011, 10:27 PM

No, we mostly stick to Remington brand Ammunition, switching only to Winchester when Remington is out of stock. The bullet weights never change. I always get 150 gr and he gets 180 gr. We do a variety trying to see what the problem is when it comes to heat and it doesn't change a thing. We shoot them extremely hot. Then sometimes we let them cool between shots, alternating or doing firing drills so its one shot for every few minutes. Then sometimes its semi continuous fire, with each of us shooting 3 shots then letting the other shoot. When we check on our targets, its not even close to grouped around the same area, some are high left, others right, others lower left, others near the bottom. Its literally a 2 foot spread, not really a "large group". And it always changes, sometimes they mine begin stringing up, while his push far left, then some will hit wide right and his will hit low, or not even on target. I mean, we're no expert marksmen, but its a bit ridiculous how bad the targets look haha.

bamaranger · September 7, 2011, 10:41 PM

Lots of things to check.......

-if you inherited the rifle (second hand) could bhe barrel badly copper fouled
or perhaps even shot out. Life of a centerfire like yours is likely 5000 rds
+/- depending on how its been maintained and the rate of fire, maybe some
other variables too. I'd super clean it with a copper solvent

-Check the stock bolts for even torque, and not too tight. 45 lbs on both is likely plenty

-scopes go bad, mount another scope and try again.

keep us posted

big al hunter · September 7, 2011, 10:51 PM

Try different brands of ammo first. Get some lighter bullets also. Some rifles do not like some ammo. And the twist rate of the barrel determines what weight bullets it will shoot accurately. I am not up on what stock comes on what model savage rifles, but I remember that the accustock is well bedded and free floated. To check your rifles free float try to slide a dollar bill between the barrel and stock. If it is free floated it will slide almost to the reciever.

Just read the post above I agree could be fouling.

NaCl Assassin · September 7, 2011, 10:53 PM

Hey thanks for the suggestions, but I can rule a few of them out already. The rifle is new, I bought it a little under a year ago and the scope isn't really "inherited", more like "uncle bought Leupold new, then upgraded again within a month to U.S. Optics and gave me the new scope". So it has had two scopes on it, the bushnell originally and then the new leupold, and the same thing happens. So the rifle is new and it's had a few different scopes on it. I don't think there's too much copper fouling, we clean them thoroughly after ever shoot, but i suppose it maybe the stock bolts. I had mine in at a gunsmith recently to eject a jammed cartridge. He had to take the stock off and then put it on again. Could it still be the stock bolts you think? Do you think the cheap stock itself rubbing against the barrel would have that great of an effect that sanding it down would help?

NaCl Assassin · September 7, 2011, 10:57 PM

Just saw above post. I've tried winchester, federal, and remington in 165gr and 150gr (which is the average gr for 7mm) and its all the same results. It's not the accustock model, too expensive for my budget at the time, but it is free float. I'll definitely do the check, would that be enough to throw off the results?

NaCl Assassin · September 7, 2011, 11:00 PM

sorry for all the posts in a row here in such a short period of time, but i'm trying to keep the information current. i just checked the free float and there are areas that are good, and others were i have to work to get the paper through the spot. So its definitely flush against the barrel.

big al hunter · September 7, 2011, 11:04 PM

If it has been this way since it was new, yes the barrel touching the stock can cause this. You should be able to sand the stock down. work carefully and use a fine grit paper and try not to take more off than it takes to get the dollar bill to fit.

big al hunter · September 7, 2011, 11:10 PM

You can also try up pressure at the end of the forestock. fold up some card stock and put a little between the barrel and stock. Just a little pressure up. Remington has little buttons on there stocks to create this. worth a shot before spendin time and money elswhere.

rezmedic54 · September 7, 2011, 11:10 PM

I have a Savage in 7 mm rem mag. Tried a bunch of different ammo and mine likes Wolf Gold line ammo the best 150 gr. with it my rifle will shoot 5/6 inch groups at 150 yards. Rifles are like women they each like something a little different to get their fire cooking you just have to find that something.

NaCl Assassin · September 7, 2011, 11:17 PM

alright i'll try those suggestions. I do realize that the different ammunition brands and weights will affect the performance, but i have a hard time believing that federal or remington brand ammunition will produce close to 20 inch groups. I'll try the up pressure for my next trip and bring along some sandpaper if that doesn't work. thanks for the suggestions. hopefully this will fix it.

Jim243 · September 7, 2011, 11:21 PM

There are big differences in commercial ammo, but Remington CoreLok tend to be pretty good.

My first reaction is that it is the shooter at that distance. Do you have a stand that you can tie the rifle down and see what groups you get with the gun locked down?? A 7mm Rem Mag will give the shooter a bit of a flinch each time if shot often enough.

You need to see if you can eleminate the shooter and just test the rifle.

Jim

NaCl Assassin · September 7, 2011, 11:30 PM

Thats what I figured, that the ammunition should be at least average enough for simple groups. I'm not trying for world records here. just consistency. I've had some friends shoot the rifle, plus my parents did on a lark when visiting one time, and everyone had basically the same experience. We did have one bullseye, literally, but they were aiming at the head of the silhouette so that doesn't count in my opinion. I'm here in Flagstaff, which according to hippie custom won't approve a gun range anywhere near it. So there are no sleds, no benchrests, no absolute known distances. We just drive out into the desert, find a mountain and pace it out. I'd love to strap my baby down and see if i'm just not a good shooter, but I don't think that's happening anytime soon. I can say that the Savage has an amazing recoil pad, so when i shoot i don't feel a thing. it hurts less than shooting my .233 back in idaho.

trg42wraglefragle · September 8, 2011, 12:37 AM

All ive heard about remington corelokts and from experiences is theyre crap. But federal is usually pretty good. But I doubt Its the ammo thats causing such wild groups.

NaCl Assassin · September 8, 2011, 12:45 AM

really? i figured remington was a good brand, must be good ammunition. Would it be better than winchester or about the same? I don't think its the ammunition. Ha you should see these shooting results. They're insane. I think a dog could do better, and they don't have thumbs.

trg42wraglefragle · September 8, 2011, 02:47 AM

When I first got my 223 I tried Winchester, federal and Remington.
The Federal was shooting around o.5moa, the Winchester around 1moa and the Remington around 2.5-3moa.

And I've heard from others who have used it who think its crap.

But if you've tried lots of different bullet weights and brands i doubt its the ammo thats wrong with your gun, and I doubt its the free floating either.

I wouldn't no what was wrong though.
Maybe the action screws?
Flinching?
Maybe try some 130 and 140gr bullets, they are common bullet weights for a 7mm

Rob96 · September 8, 2011, 03:30 AM

Cleam the hell out of the barrel. It has been my experience with Savage's that they foul rather quickly causing groups to open way up.

Dr. Strangelove · September 8, 2011, 04:00 AM

I would take the actions out of the stocks, and clean aggressively for copper and lead fouling.

Check all screws for proper torque (or at least not loose).

Reassemble, fire at 100yds from sandbags or a cheap rest. You can't expect a rifle to group if you don't fire it from the same position each time.

If the groups don't improve, remove scopes and try on another rifle.

Check the scope mounts, I chased the dragon for years with a Ruger Model 77 and found it was the scope rings, they just were crap, even locked down tight.

After a fouled barrel, I'm betting on the scope mounts/rings being your problem.

youp · September 8, 2011, 04:26 AM

Are you resting the barrel on a hard surface or object?

bejay · September 8, 2011, 04:28 AM

you really need to shoot it with a good rest or locked down to determine that it is for sure the rifle or ammo and not the shooter my guess is alot of it is the shooter.

Jimro · September 8, 2011, 06:27 AM

Are you adjusting your scope properly for parallax at distance?

Usually when a rifle has vastly different groups at different ranges it is an optics problem, not a rifle problem.

Jimro

wingman · September 8, 2011, 07:59 AM

Honestly until you have a proper bench rest to shoot from it's difficult to understand problem, build or buy a portable bench then you can get a better picture of the rifles accuracy, also think downsizing to a 223,243 if shooting at targets, less recoil, cheaper to shoot.

L_Killkenny · September 8, 2011, 08:33 AM

It's not the guns. Look elsewhere. Seriously

LK

Doyle · September 8, 2011, 10:14 AM

Nobody has asked the obvious question - how long are you waiting between shots? If you are not waiting for the barrel to cool down, then do so. POI from a hot barrel is going to be different that POI from a cold barrel.

September 7, 2011, 09:39 PM	#1
NaCl Assassin Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2011 Posts: 14	Savage failing to make groups Hey, this is my first choice, but me and my roommate are going out of our minds trying to solve the problem. We both have Savage 111fcxp3 rifles, mine with an inherited Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40 scope on top in the 7mm Rem Mag caliber and my roommate with the stock bushnell 3-9x40 scope and 30-06 caliber. We CANNOT make groups to save our lives. We can zero perfectly fine at 25-50yrds and when we push it out to 100 yrds it gets more difficult to narrow down our groups so we settle for a general, loose zero, but when we push out to 200 yrds, our so called groups spread out almost two feet with random shots all over. Both of us. Normally I would dismiss a post like this to poor shooters, but we can both hit clay pigeons with open sites on a .22LR out near 75 yrds. Our scopes are snug and lock tighted. Is it the stocks throwing our shots off so crazy? Can the free float be that bad? If so, would sanding down the edges of the plastic stocks damage it at all? I'm thinking about getting a new stock from Manners stocks, but I want to make sure thats the problem before I start saving for a new one. I'm no gunsmith so I don't have a clue about what to do. Thanks for all your help guys.

September 7, 2011, 10:17 PM	#2
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	Have you tried different brands/bullet weight of ammo? Are the groups getting randomly larger or stringing left or right or vertical? Did you allow the rifles to cool between shots and groups? If you shot on hot barrels the groups can grow amazingly large. More info about what you did will help diagnose the problem. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

September 7, 2011, 10:41 PM	#4
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	check Lots of things to check....... -if you inherited the rifle (second hand) could bhe barrel badly copper fouled or perhaps even shot out. Life of a centerfire like yours is likely 5000 rds +/- depending on how its been maintained and the rate of fire, maybe some other variables too. I'd super clean it with a copper solvent -Check the stock bolts for even torque, and not too tight. 45 lbs on both is likely plenty -scopes go bad, mount another scope and try again. keep us posted

September 7, 2011, 10:51 PM	#5
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	Try different brands of ammo first. Get some lighter bullets also. Some rifles do not like some ammo. And the twist rate of the barrel determines what weight bullets it will shoot accurately. I am not up on what stock comes on what model savage rifles, but I remember that the accustock is well bedded and free floated. To check your rifles free float try to slide a dollar bill between the barrel and stock. If it is free floated it will slide almost to the reciever. Just read the post above I agree could be fouling. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

September 7, 2011, 11:04 PM	#9
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	If it has been this way since it was new, yes the barrel touching the stock can cause this. You should be able to sand the stock down. work carefully and use a fine grit paper and try not to take more off than it takes to get the dollar bill to fit. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

September 7, 2011, 10:27 PM	#3
NaCl Assassin Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2011 Posts: 14	No, we mostly stick to Remington brand Ammunition, switching only to Winchester when Remington is out of stock. The bullet weights never change. I always get 150 gr and he gets 180 gr. We do a variety trying to see what the problem is when it comes to heat and it doesn't change a thing. We shoot them extremely hot. Then sometimes we let them cool between shots, alternating or doing firing drills so its one shot for every few minutes. Then sometimes its semi continuous fire, with each of us shooting 3 shots then letting the other shoot. When we check on our targets, its not even close to grouped around the same area, some are high left, others right, others lower left, others near the bottom. Its literally a 2 foot spread, not really a "large group". And it always changes, sometimes they mine begin stringing up, while his push far left, then some will hit wide right and his will hit low, or not even on target. I mean, we're no expert marksmen, but its a bit ridiculous how bad the targets look haha.

September 7, 2011, 10:53 PM	#6
NaCl Assassin Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2011 Posts: 14	Hey thanks for the suggestions, but I can rule a few of them out already. The rifle is new, I bought it a little under a year ago and the scope isn't really "inherited", more like "uncle bought Leupold new, then upgraded again within a month to U.S. Optics and gave me the new scope". So it has had two scopes on it, the bushnell originally and then the new leupold, and the same thing happens. So the rifle is new and it's had a few different scopes on it. I don't think there's too much copper fouling, we clean them thoroughly after ever shoot, but i suppose it maybe the stock bolts. I had mine in at a gunsmith recently to eject a jammed cartridge. He had to take the stock off and then put it on again. Could it still be the stock bolts you think? Do you think the cheap stock itself rubbing against the barrel would have that great of an effect that sanding it down would help?

September 7, 2011, 10:57 PM	#7
NaCl Assassin Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2011 Posts: 14	Just saw above post. I've tried winchester, federal, and remington in 165gr and 150gr (which is the average gr for 7mm) and its all the same results. It's not the accustock model, too expensive for my budget at the time, but it is free float. I'll definitely do the check, would that be enough to throw off the results?

September 7, 2011, 11:00 PM	#8
NaCl Assassin Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2011 Posts: 14	sorry for all the posts in a row here in such a short period of time, but i'm trying to keep the information current. i just checked the free float and there are areas that are good, and others were i have to work to get the paper through the spot. So its definitely flush against the barrel.

September 7, 2011, 11:10 PM	#10
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	You can also try up pressure at the end of the forestock. fold up some card stock and put a little between the barrel and stock. Just a little pressure up. Remington has little buttons on there stocks to create this. worth a shot before spendin time and money elswhere. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

September 7, 2011, 11:10 PM	#11
rezmedic54 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 288	Savage I have a Savage in 7 mm rem mag. Tried a bunch of different ammo and mine likes Wolf Gold line ammo the best 150 gr. with it my rifle will shoot 5/6 inch groups at 150 yards. Rifles are like women they each like something a little different to get their fire cooking you just have to find that something. __________________ Kurt Pietrzak Maricopa Shooting Service S.W.A.T. South West Airsoft Tactical CCW Instrutor NRA Certified Instructor Gunsmith Maricopa ,Az. http:www.maricopashooting.com

September 7, 2011, 11:17 PM	#12
NaCl Assassin Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2011 Posts: 14	alright i'll try those suggestions. I do realize that the different ammunition brands and weights will affect the performance, but i have a hard time believing that federal or remington brand ammunition will produce close to 20 inch groups. I'll try the up pressure for my next trip and bring along some sandpaper if that doesn't work. thanks for the suggestions. hopefully this will fix it.

September 7, 2011, 11:21 PM	#13
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	There are big differences in commercial ammo, but Remington CoreLok tend to be pretty good. My first reaction is that it is the shooter at that distance. Do you have a stand that you can tie the rifle down and see what groups you get with the gun locked down?? A 7mm Rem Mag will give the shooter a bit of a flinch each time if shot often enough. You need to see if you can eleminate the shooter and just test the rifle. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

September 7, 2011, 11:30 PM	#14
NaCl Assassin Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2011 Posts: 14	Thats what I figured, that the ammunition should be at least average enough for simple groups. I'm not trying for world records here. just consistency. I've had some friends shoot the rifle, plus my parents did on a lark when visiting one time, and everyone had basically the same experience. We did have one bullseye, literally, but they were aiming at the head of the silhouette so that doesn't count in my opinion. I'm here in Flagstaff, which according to hippie custom won't approve a gun range anywhere near it. So there are no sleds, no benchrests, no absolute known distances. We just drive out into the desert, find a mountain and pace it out. I'd love to strap my baby down and see if i'm just not a good shooter, but I don't think that's happening anytime soon. I can say that the Savage has an amazing recoil pad, so when i shoot i don't feel a thing. it hurts less than shooting my .233 back in idaho.

September 8, 2011, 12:37 AM	#15
trg42wraglefragle Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2008 Location: new zealand Posts: 856	All ive heard about remington corelokts and from experiences is theyre crap. But federal is usually pretty good. But I doubt Its the ammo thats causing such wild groups.

September 8, 2011, 12:45 AM	#16
NaCl Assassin Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2011 Posts: 14	really? i figured remington was a good brand, must be good ammunition. Would it be better than winchester or about the same? I don't think its the ammunition. Ha you should see these shooting results. They're insane. I think a dog could do better, and they don't have thumbs.

September 8, 2011, 02:47 AM	#17
trg42wraglefragle Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2008 Location: new zealand Posts: 856	When I first got my 223 I tried Winchester, federal and Remington. The Federal was shooting around o.5moa, the Winchester around 1moa and the Remington around 2.5-3moa. And I've heard from others who have used it who think its crap. But if you've tried lots of different bullet weights and brands i doubt its the ammo thats wrong with your gun, and I doubt its the free floating either. I wouldn't no what was wrong though. Maybe the action screws? Flinching? Maybe try some 130 and 140gr bullets, they are common bullet weights for a 7mm

September 8, 2011, 03:30 AM	#18
Rob96 Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 1999 Location: Allentown,PA Posts: 1,969	Cleam the hell out of the barrel. It has been my experience with Savage's that they foul rather quickly causing groups to open way up.

September 8, 2011, 04:00 AM	#19
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	I would take the actions out of the stocks, and clean aggressively for copper and lead fouling. Check all screws for proper torque (or at least not loose). Reassemble, fire at 100yds from sandbags or a cheap rest. You can't expect a rifle to group if you don't fire it from the same position each time. If the groups don't improve, remove scopes and try on another rifle. Check the scope mounts, I chased the dragon for years with a Ruger Model 77 and found it was the scope rings, they just were crap, even locked down tight. After a fouled barrel, I'm betting on the scope mounts/rings being your problem. __________________ Just remember, when you pull the trigger, the bullets come out going very, very fast. So make sure to keep the weapon pointing away from you.

September 8, 2011, 04:26 AM	#20
youp Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: south of Canada, eh? Posts: 438	Are you resting the barrel on a hard surface or object? __________________ Use enough gun.

September 8, 2011, 04:28 AM	#21
bejay Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2008 Posts: 195	you really need to shoot it with a good rest or locked down to determine that it is for sure the rifle or ammo and not the shooter my guess is alot of it is the shooter.

September 8, 2011, 06:27 AM	#22
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Are you adjusting your scope properly for parallax at distance? Usually when a rifle has vastly different groups at different ranges it is an optics problem, not a rifle problem. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

September 8, 2011, 07:59 AM	#23
wingman Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2002 Posts: 2,108	Honestly until you have a proper bench rest to shoot from it's difficult to understand problem, build or buy a portable bench then you can get a better picture of the rifles accuracy, also think downsizing to a 223,243 if shooting at targets, less recoil, cheaper to shoot.

September 8, 2011, 08:33 AM	#24
L_Killkenny Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,676	It's not the guns. Look elsewhere. Seriously LK

September 8, 2011, 10:14 AM	#25
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Nobody has asked the obvious question - how long are you waiting between shots? If you are not waiting for the barrel to cool down, then do so. POI from a hot barrel is going to be different that POI from a cold barrel.