Sam Holt double barrell questions

TLeo · May 18, 2013, 05:07 PM

I have a few questions concerning these shotguns. I understand they were made in Belgium for Sears & Roebuck and were not imported from WW1 on. I have one that belonged to my dad and apparently his grandfather before him and wondering how to date it if possible. It does have Belgium proof marks underside of the barrel, the dog on the sides and of course the double hammers and triggers. I was thinking of taking it to a gunsmith and see if it was safe to shoot light loads in.

RJay · May 18, 2013, 06:56 PM

Made in Belgium for Sears and Roebucks prior to WWI, from the early 1900's until 1914. ( Belgium gun makers had to take a 4 year break starting in 1914 ). Manufactured by , I believe F. Dumoulin and Co. Odds are it has laminated steel barrels ( Damascus ) and is chambered for the old low pressure 2 5/8 shells These were not high quality guns when new and they do not age well. Sam Holt is just a trade name, chosen because it sounds like Sam Colt when a salesman says it fast. If you shoot it at all you should order the old type shells or even black powder shells. IMHO these old inexpensive Damascus shotguns are best if left hanging on the wall. Damascus rust ( or rots ) from the inside, with out sectioning the barrel there is no why to determine the integrity of the metal. With modern load s( even light loads it could remove fingers and eyes at any time. This is not a London made fine quality shotgun. Just my opinion and I'm sure others have their own.

TLeo · May 18, 2013, 07:15 PM

Ron is there any way to tell the year it was made? Any markings to look for that might show that info?

RJay · May 18, 2013, 07:58 PM

I really don't know of any way to date a Belgium Trade Mark gun other than to an era. The Belgium's normally have a inspectors mark but the inspectors have a life time job. His mark could be used for 30 years. My reference show that Sears imported the shotguns from 1900/1901 until approximately 1914, the start of WWI in Europe. Perhaps others may have more insight. Any serial number records ( if it even has a serial number ) would be the property of the Belgium Government . Sorry about that.

TLeo · May 18, 2013, 08:06 PM

Thanks for the help. That narrows it down a bit and helps out.

PetahW · May 19, 2013, 09:31 AM

.

FWIW, even today's "light loads" are waaay too strong for guns like those, even if the guns are in primo condition.

That includes modern so-called "low brass", "target" & "game" loads.

One reason is that in 1926, long after those guns were made, all shotshell companies seriously upgraded ammo to different powders with higher pressures - more than the older designs could safely fire.

Even companies that made top-drawer guns, like Ithaca, discontinued their then-current models in 1925 (the Flues) and introduced a stronger model (the N.I.D.) because of the ammo issue with weak actions.

A second reason is the the metals used in Belgian shotguns 100+ years ago is in no way comparible to the modern steels found in guns today - besides who knows how much & what sort of stress that metal's been subjected to in that time ?

I'm sure there's more than a few who'll say they've successfully fired modern ammo in theirs - but I (for one) wouldn't want any such gun in my hands, near my face, when (not "if") it does finally fail.

.

May 18, 2013, 05:07 PM	#1
TLeo Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2009 Location: NC Posts: 254	Sam Holt double barrell questions I have a few questions concerning these shotguns. I understand they were made in Belgium for Sears & Roebuck and were not imported from WW1 on. I have one that belonged to my dad and apparently his grandfather before him and wondering how to date it if possible. It does have Belgium proof marks underside of the barrel, the dog on the sides and of course the double hammers and triggers. I was thinking of taking it to a gunsmith and see if it was safe to shoot light loads in.

May 18, 2013, 06:56 PM	#2
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Made in Belgium for Sears and Roebucks prior to WWI, from the early 1900's until 1914. ( Belgium gun makers had to take a 4 year break starting in 1914 ). Manufactured by , I believe F. Dumoulin and Co. Odds are it has laminated steel barrels ( Damascus ) and is chambered for the old low pressure 2 5/8 shells These were not high quality guns when new and they do not age well. Sam Holt is just a trade name, chosen because it sounds like Sam Colt when a salesman says it fast. If you shoot it at all you should order the old type shells or even black powder shells. IMHO these old inexpensive Damascus shotguns are best if left hanging on the wall. Damascus rust ( or rots ) from the inside, with out sectioning the barrel there is no why to determine the integrity of the metal. With modern load s( even light loads it could remove fingers and eyes at any time. This is not a London made fine quality shotgun. Just my opinion and I'm sure others have their own. __________________ Ron James

May 18, 2013, 07:58 PM	#4
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	I really don't know of any way to date a Belgium Trade Mark gun other than to an era. The Belgium's normally have a inspectors mark but the inspectors have a life time job. His mark could be used for 30 years. My reference show that Sears imported the shotguns from 1900/1901 until approximately 1914, the start of WWI in Europe. Perhaps others may have more insight. Any serial number records ( if it even has a serial number ) would be the property of the Belgium Government . Sorry about that. __________________ Ron James

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May 18, 2013, 07:15 PM	#3
TLeo Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2009 Location: NC Posts: 254	Ron is there any way to tell the year it was made? Any markings to look for that might show that info?

May 18, 2013, 08:06 PM	#5
TLeo Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2009 Location: NC Posts: 254	Thanks for the help. That narrows it down a bit and helps out.

May 19, 2013, 09:31 AM	#6
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. FWIW, even today's "light loads" are waaay too strong for guns like those, even if the guns are in primo condition. That includes modern so-called "low brass", "target" & "game" loads. One reason is that in 1926, long after those guns were made, all shotshell companies seriously upgraded ammo to different powders with higher pressures - more than the older designs could safely fire. Even companies that made top-drawer guns, like Ithaca, discontinued their then-current models in 1925 (the Flues) and introduced a stronger model (the N.I.D.) because of the ammo issue with weak actions. A second reason is the the metals used in Belgian shotguns 100+ years ago is in no way comparible to the modern steels found in guns today - besides who knows how much & what sort of stress that metal's been subjected to in that time ? I'm sure there's more than a few who'll say they've successfully fired modern ammo in theirs - but I (for one) wouldn't want any such gun in my hands, near my face, when (not "if") it does finally fail. .