Precision-guided pistols?

[Boarhunter]

Precision-guided pistols? Laser-guided pistols? Did anyone else get a chance to read the article below? Not terribly artful in describing a Crimson Trace or Lasermax laser sight. And as much as I appreciate handguns, I am calling bs on the suggestion that they are more "accurate," inherently or pragmatically, than the military carbine....

Boarhunter

The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com

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Ill-equipped soldiers use excess force
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published July 28, 2005

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U.S. Army soldiers have used "excessive" and "unauthorized deadly force" in Iraq to defend supply convoys because they did not have the proper weapons, according to a commander's secret internal memorandum.
The memo says soldiers need precision-guided pistols, in addition to heavy-fire machine guns, to ensure that innocent people are not killed.
The memo was written by Brig. Gen. Joseph J. Chaves, who commands an Army National Guard brigade that performs the perilous job of guarding convoys that move in and out of Camp Anaconda, a sprawling logistics base near Balad, north of Baghdad. Such convoys have been the targets of numerous attacks by terrorists using suicide car bombs and other types of ambushes.
In the March 15 memo, Gen. Chaves tells top commanders in Baghdad that he does not have the right mix of weapons to fire from the turrets of armored Humvees and other vehicles that guard supply trucks.
"Previously, reports indicated that excessive use of force, to include unauthorized deadly force, was employed by some convoy escorts," Gen. Chaves writes to the commander of all multinational forces in Iraq in a memo stamped "secret." A copy of the memo was obtained by The Washington Times.
"While defending combat logistics convoys, soldiers manning heavy crew-served weapons in turrets of gun trucks are challenged to use the appropriate elevation of force toward hostile acts of demonstrated hostile intents," he wrote.
The memo does not provide details of excessive-force incidents.
The Times this week supplied copies of the memo to the Pentagon, the command headquarters in Baghdad and Camp Anaconda. A Pentagon spokesman said its policy is not to comment on classified documents. Spokesmen in Baghdad and at the camp had no comment.
Gen. Chaves blames the deaths on escorts being forced to use M-2 machine guns and MK-19 grenade launchers, which apparently killed unintended targets.
He said soldiers, when attacked, have no time to reach down inside their armored vehicles to retrieve more accurate weapons.
"The speed of our convoys and oncoming threats allow no time for soldiers to alternately reach down to grab an M-16 or M-4 [rifles] in order to ensure that proportionate force is utilized to ensure innocent civilians are not engaged," he said.
Gen. Chaves, who commands the Hawaii Army National Guard 29th Separate Infantry Brigade, said the answer was to equip soldiers with laser-guided 9 mm Beretta pistols.
That way, a soldier could lase the person he wants to target before pulling the trigger.
"The M-9 9 mm Beretta pistol will allow the gunner to elect to use the smaller caliber weapon vice the crew-served weapon to ensure proper elevation of force," Gen. Chaves said. "The hip holster will allow the gunner quick and easy access to the lighter weapon."
Gen. Chaves also wrote of a second benefit.
"A soldier wielding a pistol is viewed by local nationals as a token of authority," he said. "Historically, Iraqi soldiers in positions of authority carried pistols and were known to not hesitate to shoot alleged criminals."
Camp Anaconda, with a large airstrip, is a major supply hub for 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. Truck convoys regularly leave and enter the base and are spied on by insurgents for any opening to launch an attack. Commanders use a variety of tactics to foil their plans.
"We use speed, evasive driving, our best intelligence to change routes and then rely on air cover and armor plating," said Robert Maginnis, a retired Army combat officer and a military analyst.

[shield20]

I hope the general really knew what he meant - instead of how it sounds!

Makes me wonder...

[k_dawg]

what the $#@#!..

Using a 9mm isn't lethal force, but an M-4 is???

[Slateman]

Yea I read it. It was weird, and I don't get it. And frankly, thats one of the reasons I don't read the newspaper or bother with the news at all. Most of the time, they have no idea what they're talking about.

[Eghad]

What he was saying that the Troops were shooting back at where the bullets came from in Bahgdad. Which would probably be in a heavily populated city area. Which the terrorists would use to ambush our troops because the hoped that our soldiers would be hesitant to fire into populated areas.
Some of the guys I work with were from Camp Anaconda and did convoy escort through Baghdad.

What he might mean by unathorized force is that when defending ones self in a populated area the troops may have needed to call for authorization first. Also that only light weapons might need to be used in populated areas instead of the M2 and MK 19.

Basically the General is doing CYA in case some of his troops get called on the carpet for political purposes for protecting themselves.

of course the general is also full of crap as the Christmas Goose if he thinks using the M9 with a laser sight is going to be the answer.

Can see the gunner in the Humvee which is going up and down on the road trying to use laser sights to target something

[shield20]

He's saying that our soldiers response isn't surgical enough - that they saturate an area of attack with indiscrimate MG or rifle grenade fire, etc, instead of M16/M4 (many with red dot type sights) or even laser-sighted M9 that can indicate to the shooter exactly where his bullet is going to/supposed to go, thereby eliminating unintended innocent victims/inappropriate force. Unfortunately, he makes the M9 sound like it is laser-GUIDED, instead of just a normal pistol equipped with a laser sight.

[Eghad]

War is the use of excessive and overwhelming force if done properly.

[Garand Illusion]

He's not saying the pistol is better than the M4/M16, just that they don't have time to pull their rifles through the fighting hole in the roof so they deal with the threat with the weapon available -- their crew served heavy weapon.

The thought is that a holstered 9mm could be drawn and used instead of the heavy weapon or the rifle which is at their feet.

I don't know the kinds of threats there ... but I guess if you're trying to pick off a single BG in the middle of a crowd then a sprary from an M2 .50 is a bit much.

Don't think I'd want to shoot at a driver through a windshield with a 9mm, and if a BG was standing alone I think I'd still want to shred him with the .50, but in a crowd situation it makes sense to have a pistol available.

If the memo is for real, I hope he gets the weapons his troops need.

[James K]

Anyone who would use, or would advocate use of, a pistol when a rifle is available needs a bit of re-education.

Jim

[Marko Kloos]

Try and find the little red dot in the bright Iraqi afternoon sun, sighting your pistol from a truck moving along at 40+ miles per hour.

[k_dawg]

the assinine thing is.. a laser sight is generally LESS accurate in real-world situations than proper aimed shots.

sounds like it is a *training* issue, if you have a bunch of jumpy soldiers just start spraying all around them. That maybe fine in the jungles of vietnam.. but not in an urban area.

[Garand Illusion]

Anyone who would use, or would advocate use of, a pistol when a rifle is available needs a bit of re-education

Read it again. The rifles are not deployable fast enough. That's the point.

Should they just figure a way to keep their rifles more available while still maintaining theiri heavy weapons? I've never been in that position so I don't know what is/isn't possible.

I'd never argue that a pistol is inherantly better than a rifle, but the pistol in hand is better than the rifle jammed at your feet that you can't reach. And for winning the real war (exiting Iraq as a peaceful place trusting of Americans) the pistol at hand may also be better than the .50 that'll take out a coupla' kids along with the BG.

In terms of the laser ... I was kind of thinking the same thing. I know some people swear by lasers on their defensive pistols, but when I tried it out I found myself spending too much time looking for the red dot instead of getting a quick sight picture and pulling the trigger.

If you have sufficient time to lase a potential threat I guess it would work well ... but it seems like if they have that much time they can reach down and pull up their rifle. I dunno. I just want to make sure the troops on the ground get what they need without being second guessed by the armchair quarterbacks back home. If they need pistols and lasers, then get them pistols and lasers. Heck ... I'll send them one of mine (would that have to be to an Iraqui FFL?).

[k_dawg]

if they want speed.. do what professional shootists do: get a C-More or Bushnell holographc sight mounted on a 1911...

[CarbineCaleb]

I think the issue is excessive force... and there seems to be ample evidence of that. As a small example of something right from the horse's mouth - when they went through Falluja, a tank commander (colonel if I recall) was being interviewed for radio by an embedded journalist, and he proudly described the "surgical tactics" they were using that first day - he said if there was a sniper on the roof of a building, they just shot the base of the building with the tank, which completely collapsed the masonry building, killing the sniper, without damaging surrounding buildings. To me, driving through an city that is principally occupied by noncombatants, and using tank rounds to counter rifle fire isn't real "surgical". If you saw any photos of what was left of the city after they were through, it didn't look real surgical either.

The other issue with excessive force has been soldiers who are too fast to shoot - the phrase "trigger happy" has been used by British soldiers to describe their American counterparts. Again, more accounts than I care to go through.