Changing face of IDPA

Sport · September 10, 2000, 07:32 PM

Where I live, we have three IDPA clubs.
That, of course, means three matches a
month-Tn,Va,N.C. About a dozen of us try
to shoot all three matches. Even more shoot
at least two. In all, there are probably
close to 120 individuals who regularly
participate in the sport here.

Over the past year I've begun to notice a
definite trend in hardware.
The vast majority of shooters have settled
on one of two guns: Gov model .45s or Glock
9s/40s.

As an example at our last Virginia match we
had 58 shooters. Twenty-eight of them shot
gov models, 28 Glocks. In CDP and SSP there
were NO other brands represented. Two guys shot in the enhanced division.

A year ago, we would have seen HKs, Sigs,
S&Ws..the usual variety. We would have even
seen a couple of revolvers at any given match.

The trend is not limited to just one club.
I believe the two major reasons are:

1: People want to "fit" in. They notice what
is popular and folow suit.

2: We are very competative. Therefore, we
have found what works best.

By the way, "plastic" and leather holsters
are about evenly represented.

Are any of you noticing such trends at your
clubs?

9x45 · September 10, 2000, 08:37 PM

Sport, interesting point. I shoot IDPA at many different clubs in SoCal on a regular basis, and around the country when I can. I don't know about fitting in, but everyone wants gear that works. As far as plastic vs leather, plastic is taking over because it's faster. Regarding Glocks, well, lots of 1911 guys also own Glocks, but my observations are that only guns that work make the grade. I would say the split is 40% Glock, 45% 1911's, 10% remaining semi-auto in Sig, Beretta, H&K, S&W, and the rest in wheelguns, basically Smith and Wesson. I also notice that most malfunctions occur with the 1911's, and not Glocks. Personally, I retired my Colt Gold Cup when I bought my first gen G21.

ralphtt · September 10, 2000, 08:54 PM

Hi, Sport . . . wonder if we might be neighbors? If you're talking about Kettlefoot, TAC2 and Watauga, we are.

I've only gotten started and have so far participated in four shoots. Have not made it to Watauga for IDPA yet although I did shoot trap there some years ago. Shoot me a email when you have the chance.
You're probably right about the trend in hardware. I haven't been around long enough to notice a trend . . . regards

------------------
ralph

Life Member NRA

Sport · September 10, 2000, 09:33 PM

RalphTT..

Yes. Those are the ones.

To add to my earlier post; I understand
IPSC fell from favor with some because too
many shooters became too gear oriented.

With IDPA the concept was supposed to be
shoot what you carry. I know a lot of the
guys who shoot Gov models and Glocks don't
carry them..or at least they carry a smaller
varient. I'm convinced the competition
is impacting gear/gun choices where I shoot.

Ned Roundtree · September 11, 2000, 06:40 AM

Competition shooting is hard on guns. I think it is a natural process that folks will migrate to the guns that are most reliable and accurate for that particular sport. I myself shoot 1911 in CDP and just shot Classifier for G-17 in SSP. So yes, some 1911 folks do own plastic guns. But variety is the spice of life. You will always have some doing their own thing.

Ned Roundtree · September 11, 2000, 06:53 AM

So far as competition and carry guns being the same. I am the first to admit I carry either a S&W 640 or G-26. BUG is S&W 342PD. In competition, I mostly shoot Springfield Armory Trophy Match in .45. That's not to say I don't practice with my carry guns. I just prefer big .45 for competition. More fun, big holes in cardboard,yeah!

Ron Ankeny · September 11, 2000, 09:44 PM

Our IPSC club and IDPA club are one and the same. I am one of the few guys who doesn't shoot what I carry. In IDPA I shoot a Baer Premier II but I carry an Ultra Light Springfield V-10.

IDPA won't allow me to shoot my V-10 because of the porting but I can shoot my limited 10 IPSC pistol. Wierd ain't it? Starting next month I am going to shoot my carry gun, I just won't be part of the "sanctioned" match.

SVSUPER · September 11, 2000, 10:57 PM

"I understand IPSC fell from favor with some because too many shooters became too gear oriented."
OK NOW LET'S FACE FACTS IF YOU CAN SHOOT YOU CAN SHOOT. THE GEAR DOES NOT MAKE THE SHOOTER. I HAVE YET TO UNDERSTAND WHY IDPA SHOOTERS HATE IPSC SHOOTERS. MAYBE IT IS BECAUSE OIR GUNS ARE PRETTIER OR WE HAVE MORE FUN? THE OBJECT IS TO GO OUT AND HAVE FUN. JUST FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE THE USPSA HAS NOW STARTED PRODUCTION, LIMITED 10 AND REVOLVER CLASSES. WHEN IT IS DONE FOR SPEED HOW PRACTICAL IS IT?

Mike Davies · September 11, 2000, 11:26 PM

SVSUPER:
Beg to differ...gear certainly DOES make the shooter..most shooters who 'advance' to the practical competition shooting DO know how to shoot; what makes the difference in the rank and file shooters is the equipment. The guys with the 10rnd Para-Ords have a distinct advantage over my 1911 single-stack. The only solution? I have to buy a Para-Ord. Even in the Standard Division it's an equipment race.
I constantly hear IPSC people saying that we are here TO HAVE FUN...but I see precious few of the folks preaching that actually *having* fun..it's WAY too competitive for that. The only ones *really* having fun are the newbies, and the old farts..<g>
Just my .02cents worth!

PKN · September 12, 2000, 09:04 AM

Once again, an IDPA shooter goes out of his way to put down IPSC shooters and the sport it's self...

Why does there have to be the animosity? You shoot your sport(IDPA isn't training, it became a sport when a timer was applied), I shoot mine, and we leave each other alone. This is like arguring over which is more fun, driving a Miata or a Corvete, they're both a blast, one will just go faster.

DocH · September 12, 2000, 10:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The guys with the 10rnd Para-Ords have a distinct advantage over my 1911 single-stack.[/quote]

True, up to a point. Depends on the course design.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only solution? I have to buy a Para-Ord.[/quote]

I disagree. If you want to play the high-cap game, sure. You could play the game to suit you, though. Practice your reloads. Improve your accuracy. Eliminate wasted motion getting in and out of shooting boxes and setting up for shots, etc.

I shoot IPSC with a Kimber Compact using a Sparks IWB holster, and once I started focusing on basic skills, my scores improved. If I'm moving, I am reloading. The time I am reloading is spent moving closer to the target to ensure an A-hit. I'm now knocking on B-class Limited (NOT Limited-10). I don't practice as much as I should, either. Will the gear make a difference? Sure, but unless your upper B-class and higher, I don't think it makes as much difference as basic skills.

Doc

"If my feets are a movin', I'm a-reloadin'."

TaxPhd · September 12, 2000, 10:40 AM

Mike,

What advantage does a 10 round Para have over a 1911 single stack with 10 round mags?

------------------
TaxPhd

"Those who live by the sword are probably pretty f***ing good at it."

"Instructions for a successful gunfight: Front Sight, Press Trigger, repeat
as necessary." - B. Braxton

NAD · September 12, 2000, 01:42 PM

Mike Davies - Todd Jarret, probably the best IPSC shooter in the sport today, hears the "equipment makes you a better shooter" comment all the time. When he travels the country, and has the occasion to shoot a local IPSC match, and hears comments like this he puts away his gear and borrows a different gun from a willing competitor for each stage just to prove the point that if you know how to shoot you can shoot any type of gun and still beat the crap out of the equipment whiners with their own gun.

Nukem · September 12, 2000, 03:47 PM

I shoot at two different IDPA clubs and don't see the move in gear as you describe. Everyone there hates what everyone else is shooting

9x45 · September 12, 2000, 07:37 PM

IPSC or IDPA, anyone who is serious likes to WIN! Hey, there is nothing more fun than the match itself, but, grinding your shooting partners or smoking the local hot dog is the best. However, I will say honestly, that I never thought about 'sneaky' until I started hanging out with some hard core IPSC dudes... and this has helped me design 'bullet proof' IDPA stages!

G. Kennedy · September 12, 2000, 07:37 PM

I have heard IPSC and IDPA shooters bash each others sport. Your'e going to have people doing that, we are human beings.

I'm lucky IMO, the people who run the matches and regulars who shoot at the local IPSC club also shoot at our IDPA matches and we shoot at their matches also. We all seem to get along. Yes we have difference's of opinion, and confusion sometimes with the rules when shooting the different matches, but that is to be expected.

Since IDPA is an organized shooting sport you are going to have people that do it just to compete. You will have others who come out and get frustrated since what they are using they feel hampers them compared to everyone else. That's just the way it's going to be.

Also don't forget the fact that people will many times use what a lot of others do or what the cops carry thinking that is the best tool. A lot of cops carry Glocks nowadays, so a lot of people want to buy and use them. Also, the Glock is simple compared to other auto's, at least in their eyes.

Me, I don't worry about it. One of the biggest reasons I like IDPA is that you have four separate division's. I can shoot my revolver as well as my auto and I don't have to reload an inordinate number of times to shoot an array of targets, let alone a stage.

I still enjoy taking my 625 and a pocket full of moon clips to the local IPSC match. Especially when I beat a few of the auto shooters, even with all those reloads.

SVSUPER · September 12, 2000, 10:46 PM

AFTER SHOOTING IPSC, IT SURE DOES MAKE YOU A BETTER IDPA SHOOTER. I BRING MY OLD SINGLE STACK 40 OUT AND PROCEED TO WHIP UP ON ABOUT 99.997 % OF THE SHOOTERS THERE. I LEFT THAT .003% FOR THE PROCEDURALS I GET FOR THAT TACTICAL RELOAD THING. MAYBE I SHOULD STOP SHOOTING IPSC. SO I DON'T HAVE TO FACE ALL THOSE GRAND MASTERS THAT CONTINUALLY WHIP MY BUTT? NEAH IT ONLY MAKES ME BETTER!!!!! UNTIL SOMEONE IS SHOOTING BACK AT YOU, IT'S ALL JUST A GAME.

Ron Ankeny · September 13, 2000, 04:38 PM

SVSUPER:

Did anyone ever tell you that all caps and/or bold is a method of shouting on the Internet and considered quite rude?

DocH is absolutely right. Equipment does make a difference. Shooting one's way through the A class with a single stack is possible, but shooting with the master's on high round field courses is best done with something like an STI Eagle in .40. I have shot my Baer Premeir II side by side, one right after another with an Eagle in .40 and there is a difference for sure.

For guys who have shot single stacks for years, can reload like a bat out of hell, waste no time moving and setting up, have mastered various sight pictures for varying yardages, the move to a hi-cap that holds more rounds and recoils less can make a difference.

Dr.Rob · September 13, 2000, 07:59 PM

I've wondered about the 10 round limit thing too.. but IDPA is a kick. One of our SO's who shall remain nameless shows up with an IPSC race gun with iron sites and that giant oversized mag well. I don't think he shoots for score.

One of the big things about IDPA is trying to make it "more real" while still keeping it competeitive. Like NOT allowing the shooters to do sight pictures and "pre plan" shooting the course. I think that's the best thing about IDPA is trying to keep you thinking on your feet.. esp. in the "blind" stages as opposed to a "known" quotient of targets with an expensive "race gun". Having SAID that there are Plenty of IPSC shooters that compete with us.. and they are all pretty damn good.

I've notice most of our SSP shooters use Glocks of one type or another. Most of our shooters are in the SSP class. the CDP class is half that size and Kimbers and Colts and Springfields are all well represented. Our ESP class usually only has 4-5 shooters but some of the BEST scores. (well some of the best shooters shoot ESP) Good or bad when I shoot my FEG hi-power I'm up against USP's in cocked and locked mode, or 1911's in 38 super or other such "non.45" guns. Revolvers are the smallest class and most of the revolver shooters shoot SW 625's in 45acp.

I'd say the leather to plastic ratio is about even.. but Kydex is the most popular plastic.

Funny thing is.. I'm the only person using a hi-power and a g-slide. Is there something I don't know? (like maybe I'm old fashioned)

Rob

[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited September 13, 2000).]

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September 10, 2000, 07:32 PM	#1
Sport Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 1999 Posts: 317	Where I live, we have three IDPA clubs. That, of course, means three matches a month-Tn,Va,N.C. About a dozen of us try to shoot all three matches. Even more shoot at least two. In all, there are probably close to 120 individuals who regularly participate in the sport here. Over the past year I've begun to notice a definite trend in hardware. The vast majority of shooters have settled on one of two guns: Gov model .45s or Glock 9s/40s. As an example at our last Virginia match we had 58 shooters. Twenty-eight of them shot gov models, 28 Glocks. In CDP and SSP there were NO other brands represented. Two guys shot in the enhanced division. A year ago, we would have seen HKs, Sigs, S&Ws..the usual variety. We would have even seen a couple of revolvers at any given match. The trend is not limited to just one club. I believe the two major reasons are: 1: People want to "fit" in. They notice what is popular and folow suit. 2: We are very competative. Therefore, we have found what works best. By the way, "plastic" and leather holsters are about evenly represented. Are any of you noticing such trends at your clubs?

September 10, 2000, 08:37 PM	#2
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Sport, interesting point. I shoot IDPA at many different clubs in SoCal on a regular basis, and around the country when I can. I don't know about fitting in, but everyone wants gear that works. As far as plastic vs leather, plastic is taking over because it's faster. Regarding Glocks, well, lots of 1911 guys also own Glocks, but my observations are that only guns that work make the grade. I would say the split is 40% Glock, 45% 1911's, 10% remaining semi-auto in Sig, Beretta, H&K, S&W, and the rest in wheelguns, basically Smith and Wesson. I also notice that most malfunctions occur with the 1911's, and not Glocks. Personally, I retired my Colt Gold Cup when I bought my first gen G21.

September 10, 2000, 08:54 PM	#3
ralphtt Member Join Date: July 3, 2000 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 88	Hi, Sport . . . wonder if we might be neighbors? If you're talking about Kettlefoot, TAC2 and Watauga, we are. I've only gotten started and have so far participated in four shoots. Have not made it to Watauga for IDPA yet although I did shoot trap there some years ago. Shoot me a email when you have the chance. You're probably right about the trend in hardware. I haven't been around long enough to notice a trend . . . regards ------------------ ralph Life Member NRA

September 10, 2000, 09:33 PM	#4
Sport Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 1999 Posts: 317	RalphTT.. Yes. Those are the ones. To add to my earlier post; I understand IPSC fell from favor with some because too many shooters became too gear oriented. With IDPA the concept was supposed to be shoot what you carry. I know a lot of the guys who shoot Gov models and Glocks don't carry them..or at least they carry a smaller varient. I'm convinced the competition is impacting gear/gun choices where I shoot.

September 11, 2000, 06:40 AM	#5
Ned Roundtree Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 1999 Location: Lexington, KY,USA Posts: 738	Competition shooting is hard on guns. I think it is a natural process that folks will migrate to the guns that are most reliable and accurate for that particular sport. I myself shoot 1911 in CDP and just shot Classifier for G-17 in SSP. So yes, some 1911 folks do own plastic guns. But variety is the spice of life. You will always have some doing their own thing.

September 11, 2000, 06:53 AM	#6
Ned Roundtree Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 1999 Location: Lexington, KY,USA Posts: 738	So far as competition and carry guns being the same. I am the first to admit I carry either a S&W 640 or G-26. BUG is S&W 342PD. In competition, I mostly shoot Springfield Armory Trophy Match in .45. That's not to say I don't practice with my carry guns. I just prefer big .45 for competition. More fun, big holes in cardboard,yeah!

September 11, 2000, 09:44 PM	#7
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	Our IPSC club and IDPA club are one and the same. I am one of the few guys who doesn't shoot what I carry. In IDPA I shoot a Baer Premier II but I carry an Ultra Light Springfield V-10. IDPA won't allow me to shoot my V-10 because of the porting but I can shoot my limited 10 IPSC pistol. Wierd ain't it? Starting next month I am going to shoot my carry gun, I just won't be part of the "sanctioned" match.

September 11, 2000, 10:57 PM	#8
SVSUPER Member Join Date: February 3, 2000 Posts: 30	"I understand IPSC fell from favor with some because too many shooters became too gear oriented." OK NOW LET'S FACE FACTS IF YOU CAN SHOOT YOU CAN SHOOT. THE GEAR DOES NOT MAKE THE SHOOTER. I HAVE YET TO UNDERSTAND WHY IDPA SHOOTERS HATE IPSC SHOOTERS. MAYBE IT IS BECAUSE OIR GUNS ARE PRETTIER OR WE HAVE MORE FUN? THE OBJECT IS TO GO OUT AND HAVE FUN. JUST FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE THE USPSA HAS NOW STARTED PRODUCTION, LIMITED 10 AND REVOLVER CLASSES. WHEN IT IS DONE FOR SPEED HOW PRACTICAL IS IT?

September 11, 2000, 11:26 PM	#9
Mike Davies Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 376	SVSUPER: Beg to differ...gear certainly DOES make the shooter..most shooters who 'advance' to the practical competition shooting DO know how to shoot; what makes the difference in the rank and file shooters is the equipment. The guys with the 10rnd Para-Ords have a distinct advantage over my 1911 single-stack. The only solution? I have to buy a Para-Ord. Even in the Standard Division it's an equipment race. I constantly hear IPSC people saying that we are here TO HAVE FUN...but I see precious few of the folks preaching that actually having fun..it's WAY too competitive for that. The only ones really having fun are the newbies, and the old farts..<g> Just my .02cents worth!

September 12, 2000, 09:04 AM	#10
PKN Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2000 Location: VA Posts: 132	Once again, an IDPA shooter goes out of his way to put down IPSC shooters and the sport it's self... Why does there have to be the animosity? You shoot your sport(IDPA isn't training, it became a sport when a timer was applied), I shoot mine, and we leave each other alone. This is like arguring over which is more fun, driving a Miata or a Corvete, they're both a blast, one will just go faster.

September 12, 2000, 10:40 AM	#11
DocH Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: NW Pa Posts: 56	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The guys with the 10rnd Para-Ords have a distinct advantage over my 1911 single-stack.[/quote] True, up to a point. Depends on the course design. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only solution? I have to buy a Para-Ord.[/quote] I disagree. If you want to play the high-cap game, sure. You could play the game to suit you, though. Practice your reloads. Improve your accuracy. Eliminate wasted motion getting in and out of shooting boxes and setting up for shots, etc. I shoot IPSC with a Kimber Compact using a Sparks IWB holster, and once I started focusing on basic skills, my scores improved. If I'm moving, I am reloading. The time I am reloading is spent moving closer to the target to ensure an A-hit. I'm now knocking on B-class Limited (NOT Limited-10). I don't practice as much as I should, either. Will the gear make a difference? Sure, but unless your upper B-class and higher, I don't think it makes as much difference as basic skills. Doc "If my feets are a movin', I'm a-reloadin'."

September 12, 2000, 10:40 AM	#12
TaxPhd Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 534	Mike, What advantage does a 10 round Para have over a 1911 single stack with 10 round mags? ------------------ TaxPhd "Those who live by the sword are probably pretty f***ing good at it." "Instructions for a successful gunfight: Front Sight, Press Trigger, repeat as necessary." - B. Braxton

September 12, 2000, 01:42 PM	#13
NAD Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 1998 Posts: 169	Mike Davies - Todd Jarret, probably the best IPSC shooter in the sport today, hears the "equipment makes you a better shooter" comment all the time. When he travels the country, and has the occasion to shoot a local IPSC match, and hears comments like this he puts away his gear and borrows a different gun from a willing competitor for each stage just to prove the point that if you know how to shoot you can shoot any type of gun and still beat the crap out of the equipment whiners with their own gun.

September 12, 2000, 03:47 PM	#14
Nukem Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Posts: 709	I shoot at two different IDPA clubs and don't see the move in gear as you describe. Everyone there hates what everyone else is shooting

September 12, 2000, 07:37 PM	#15
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	IPSC or IDPA, anyone who is serious likes to WIN! Hey, there is nothing more fun than the match itself, but, grinding your shooting partners or smoking the local hot dog is the best. However, I will say honestly, that I never thought about 'sneaky' until I started hanging out with some hard core IPSC dudes... and this has helped me design 'bullet proof' IDPA stages!

September 12, 2000, 07:37 PM	#16
G. Kennedy Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 1999 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 148	I have heard IPSC and IDPA shooters bash each others sport. Your'e going to have people doing that, we are human beings. I'm lucky IMO, the people who run the matches and regulars who shoot at the local IPSC club also shoot at our IDPA matches and we shoot at their matches also. We all seem to get along. Yes we have difference's of opinion, and confusion sometimes with the rules when shooting the different matches, but that is to be expected. Since IDPA is an organized shooting sport you are going to have people that do it just to compete. You will have others who come out and get frustrated since what they are using they feel hampers them compared to everyone else. That's just the way it's going to be. Also don't forget the fact that people will many times use what a lot of others do or what the cops carry thinking that is the best tool. A lot of cops carry Glocks nowadays, so a lot of people want to buy and use them. Also, the Glock is simple compared to other auto's, at least in their eyes. Me, I don't worry about it. One of the biggest reasons I like IDPA is that you have four separate division's. I can shoot my revolver as well as my auto and I don't have to reload an inordinate number of times to shoot an array of targets, let alone a stage. I still enjoy taking my 625 and a pocket full of moon clips to the local IPSC match. Especially when I beat a few of the auto shooters, even with all those reloads.

September 12, 2000, 10:46 PM	#17
SVSUPER Member Join Date: February 3, 2000 Posts: 30	AFTER SHOOTING IPSC, IT SURE DOES MAKE YOU A BETTER IDPA SHOOTER. I BRING MY OLD SINGLE STACK 40 OUT AND PROCEED TO WHIP UP ON ABOUT 99.997 % OF THE SHOOTERS THERE. I LEFT THAT .003% FOR THE PROCEDURALS I GET FOR THAT TACTICAL RELOAD THING. MAYBE I SHOULD STOP SHOOTING IPSC. SO I DON'T HAVE TO FACE ALL THOSE GRAND MASTERS THAT CONTINUALLY WHIP MY BUTT? NEAH IT ONLY MAKES ME BETTER!!!!! UNTIL SOMEONE IS SHOOTING BACK AT YOU, IT'S ALL JUST A GAME.

September 13, 2000, 04:38 PM	#18
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	SVSUPER: Did anyone ever tell you that all caps and/or bold is a method of shouting on the Internet and considered quite rude? DocH is absolutely right. Equipment does make a difference. Shooting one's way through the A class with a single stack is possible, but shooting with the master's on high round field courses is best done with something like an STI Eagle in .40. I have shot my Baer Premeir II side by side, one right after another with an Eagle in .40 and there is a difference for sure. For guys who have shot single stacks for years, can reload like a bat out of hell, waste no time moving and setting up, have mastered various sight pictures for varying yardages, the move to a hi-cap that holds more rounds and recoils less can make a difference.

September 13, 2000, 07:59 PM	#19
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	I've wondered about the 10 round limit thing too.. but IDPA is a kick. One of our SO's who shall remain nameless shows up with an IPSC race gun with iron sites and that giant oversized mag well. I don't think he shoots for score. One of the big things about IDPA is trying to make it "more real" while still keeping it competeitive. Like NOT allowing the shooters to do sight pictures and "pre plan" shooting the course. I think that's the best thing about IDPA is trying to keep you thinking on your feet.. esp. in the "blind" stages as opposed to a "known" quotient of targets with an expensive "race gun". Having SAID that there are Plenty of IPSC shooters that compete with us.. and they are all pretty damn good. I've notice most of our SSP shooters use Glocks of one type or another. Most of our shooters are in the SSP class. the CDP class is half that size and Kimbers and Colts and Springfields are all well represented. Our ESP class usually only has 4-5 shooters but some of the BEST scores. (well some of the best shooters shoot ESP) Good or bad when I shoot my FEG hi-power I'm up against USP's in cocked and locked mode, or 1911's in 38 super or other such "non.45" guns. Revolvers are the smallest class and most of the revolver shooters shoot SW 625's in 45acp. I'd say the leather to plastic ratio is about even.. but Kydex is the most popular plastic. Funny thing is.. I'm the only person using a hi-power and a g-slide. Is there something I don't know? (like maybe I'm old fashioned) Rob [This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited September 13, 2000).]