EFMJ: .45 beats 9x19mm regarding energy by 36%, how about penetration/expansion?

Para Bellum · July 22, 2005, 03:31 PM

I found something out that makes me think about changing from 9x19mm to .45. I believe the EFMJ bullet design to be the best we can get (at least where HPs are illegal).

What stunned me is the follwowing data from Federal:

9x19mm+P 124gr EFMJ: 1120ft/sec; 345ft/lbs (467 Joule), (4" barrel)
.40 165gr EFMJ: 1050ft/sec; 405ft/lbs, (549 joule), 4" barrel
.45+P 200gr EFMJ: 1030ft/sec; 470ft/lbs (637 joule), 5" barrel

in other words: with this particular bullet type the .45 offers 36% more energy than the 9x19mm.

Does anyone know how the penetration and expansion data of these EMFJ-loads compare?

Eghad · July 22, 2005, 03:42 PM

Dead Horse prepares for another whupping

shield20 · July 22, 2005, 04:25 PM

Para,

This is a very old article re: efmj - looking for newer stuff.

http://www.ammoman.com/40_EP_DESC.htm

Penetration looks OK for the 9mm 124 & the .45 (maybe a bit light for gelatin) - but the .45 production ammo is 165gr so that will be different.

As to .45 vs. 9mm, the energy on its own won't/doesn't have as big as impact - in this case the overall dimensions of the expanded rounds will contribute more to potential target incapacitation. Penetration will probably be around the same by design, so a bigger hole will be the advantage. Weigh that against the differences in the weapon platforms - the capacity, size, etc., and shootability to help make up your mind.

ps I like the .45 better then the 9mm

pss found this on another site from Jan '05: re: ammolab "In testing it does not expand reliably and when it does it expands from the middle of the bullet radially, the bullet then remains an increased diameter fmj bullet, it is an alternative to standard fmj but it is in no way comparable to a good jhp bullet."

Para Bellum · July 22, 2005, 05:14 PM

I'll try shooting 200gr .45s for handling etc and I'll do wetpack tests of the .45 EFMJ and keep you posted. I did test the EFMJ 9x19mm 124gr in a wetpack: http://www.raoulwagner.com/9mm.htm

I still like my package (Glock 19, 124gr 9x19mm EFMJ). Unfortunately we are facing a real threat. We had an attack of a drugged 28year old manaic who stabbed a business-partner of mine several times in the head until the knife broke. Now he's in a mental institution. But one day he will be released and might come back. So I am actually and really looking for a weapon to stop a young strong and drugged attacker. 12ga?. Sure, but it shloud be a weapon which one can carry concealed unter a suit's jacket...

shield20 · July 22, 2005, 07:32 PM

You my friend have the classic CCW decision to make.

The extra rounds of the Glock 9mm are definetly an advantage. While I do not think some pyscho is going to stand there and let you utilize all those extra rounds, more is always better. I myself prefer the extra mass and diameter of the .45 round, along with the postive aspects of a ltweight Commander, esp. trigger, grip, size and weight - to me it is worth giving up a few rounds that I make up for in extra mag(s).

I think you could do alot worse then that Glock. It is a tough choice because of what is at stake, but you should be fine as long as you stick to quality weapons and quality ammo - it is actually hard to go wrong with a good 9, .40 or .45. (as long as you practice!).

Keep hunting for more info on that EFMJ - hopefully somebody will come up with some good numbers/tests you can compare to other top ammo.

Para Bellum · July 23, 2005, 07:43 AM

I still couldn't find penetration/expansion data of the EFMJ in .45 .... strange, isn't it?

Long Path · July 23, 2005, 08:27 AM

I sure wish they'd come out with a 230g .45 acp load. EFMJ designer Tom Burzcynski (I know I'm misspelling it) said a couple or three years ago right here that he was working on it. At that time they only had 165g, IIRC.

mete · July 23, 2005, 08:59 AM

Do not count on 'energy' figures they are very misleading . For the .45 EFMJ - 9.5" penetration in gelatin and expansion to .747" .165gr bullet from a 5" barrel.

Para Bellum · July 23, 2005, 09:21 AM

thanks, but where is that data from?

(I'd love to confirm, that the 9x19mm still performs better....)

shield20 · July 23, 2005, 01:58 PM

That's just not enough penetration for the .45. If you can get the 13/14" with the 9mm - stay with it.

Para Bellum · July 23, 2005, 03:52 PM

that's what I thought. The 9x19mm seems to outperform the .45 in penetration. Expansion seems to be equal...

July 22, 2005, 03:31 PM	#1
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	EFMJ: .45 beats 9x19mm regarding energy by 36%, how about penetration/expansion? I found something out that makes me think about changing from 9x19mm to .45. I believe the EFMJ bullet design to be the best we can get (at least where HPs are illegal). What stunned me is the follwowing data from Federal: 9x19mm+P 124gr EFMJ: 1120ft/sec; 345ft/lbs (467 Joule), (4" barrel) .40 165gr EFMJ: 1050ft/sec; 405ft/lbs, (549 joule), 4" barrel .45+P 200gr EFMJ: 1030ft/sec; 470ft/lbs (637 joule), 5" barrel in other words: with this particular bullet type the .45 offers 36% more energy than the 9x19mm. Does anyone know how the penetration and expansion data of these EMFJ-loads compare? __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

July 22, 2005, 03:42 PM	#2
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	Dead Horse prepares for another whupping __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

July 22, 2005, 05:14 PM	#4
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	wetpacks, drugged attackers and the search for the right weapon I'll try shooting 200gr .45s for handling etc and I'll do wetpack tests of the .45 EFMJ and keep you posted. I did test the EFMJ 9x19mm 124gr in a wetpack: http://www.raoulwagner.com/9mm.htm I still like my package (Glock 19, 124gr 9x19mm EFMJ). Unfortunately we are facing a real threat. We had an attack of a drugged 28year old manaic who stabbed a business-partner of mine several times in the head until the knife broke. Now he's in a mental institution. But one day he will be released and might come back. So I am actually and really looking for a weapon to stop a young strong and drugged attacker. 12ga?. Sure, but it shloud be a weapon which one can carry concealed unter a suit's jacket... __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

July 23, 2005, 07:43 AM	#6
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	.45 EFMJ penetration/expansion data still wanted I still couldn't find penetration/expansion data of the EFMJ in .45 .... strange, isn't it? __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

July 23, 2005, 08:27 AM	#7
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	I sure wish they'd come out with a 230g .45 acp load. EFMJ designer Tom Burzcynski (I know I'm misspelling it) said a couple or three years ago right here that he was working on it. At that time they only had 165g, IIRC. __________________ "Welcome to The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."T.F.L. Policy Page Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? ____________

July 22, 2005, 04:25 PM	#3
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	Para, This is a very old article re: efmj - looking for newer stuff. http://www.ammoman.com/40_EP_DESC.htm Penetration looks OK for the 9mm 124 & the .45 (maybe a bit light for gelatin) - but the .45 production ammo is 165gr so that will be different. As to .45 vs. 9mm, the energy on its own won't/doesn't have as big as impact - in this case the overall dimensions of the expanded rounds will contribute more to potential target incapacitation. Penetration will probably be around the same by design, so a bigger hole will be the advantage. Weigh that against the differences in the weapon platforms - the capacity, size, etc., and shootability to help make up your mind. ps I like the .45 better then the 9mm pss found this on another site from Jan '05: re: ammolab "In testing it does not expand reliably and when it does it expands from the middle of the bullet radially, the bullet then remains an increased diameter fmj bullet, it is an alternative to standard fmj but it is in no way comparable to a good jhp bullet."

July 22, 2005, 07:32 PM	#5
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	You my friend have the classic CCW decision to make. The extra rounds of the Glock 9mm are definetly an advantage. While I do not think some pyscho is going to stand there and let you utilize all those extra rounds, more is always better. I myself prefer the extra mass and diameter of the .45 round, along with the postive aspects of a ltweight Commander, esp. trigger, grip, size and weight - to me it is worth giving up a few rounds that I make up for in extra mag(s). I think you could do alot worse then that Glock. It is a tough choice because of what is at stake, but you should be fine as long as you stick to quality weapons and quality ammo - it is actually hard to go wrong with a good 9, .40 or .45. (as long as you practice!). Keep hunting for more info on that EFMJ - hopefully somebody will come up with some good numbers/tests you can compare to other top ammo.

July 23, 2005, 08:59 AM	#8
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Do not count on 'energy' figures they are very misleading . For the .45 EFMJ - 9.5" penetration in gelatin and expansion to .747" .165gr bullet from a 5" barrel.

July 23, 2005, 09:21 AM	#9
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	Hey Mete, thanks, but where is that data from? (I'd love to confirm, that the 9x19mm still performs better....) __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

July 23, 2005, 01:58 PM	#10
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	That's just not enough penetration for the .45. If you can get the 13/14" with the 9mm - stay with it.

July 23, 2005, 03:52 PM	#11
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	that's what I thought. The 9x19mm seems to outperform the .45 in penetration. Expansion seems to be equal... __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war