help identifying unmarked japanese rifle chamber

troysmith03 · January 13, 2014, 12:43 PM

Hello all,

I have researched this till im blue in the face and have come up with no aswers so i thought i might ask some experts.. I recently came into a Japanese Type 99 Rifle... well actually a box of parts that resembles a rifle. Everthing is there and complete except that i am sure this rifle has been re barreled. I know because i have made of 7.7 japanese brass and it is too long by over an inch to chamber in the rifle. So i have used wax to cast the rifles chamber and took measurement, however i have not come up with anything that fits the measurement i took, everything is too long.. The closest matches i have come up with is 7.5x54 MAS which is still too long and .308 winchester (also too long but just slightly..) i am tempted to lube up a factory fresh .308 case and fireform it to get better measurements but it will mean tapping the brass case into the chamber and hoping i get it in all the way to close the bolt :/.. so not exactly the process id like to move forward with unless i have no other choice. Anyways i have added photos of the casting and measurements hoping someone can give me advice on where to go from here..

also i have done reseach on the rifle itself and traced it back to the place of manufacture for the action.. it is early 1942 and IS NOT a training rifle receiver.. the bolt is not a factory bolt as it has a curved handle but has the correct style and function of safety.. also fun note the emporers seal is NOT defaced at all

Thanks you for all your help!

troysmith03 · January 13, 2014, 12:44 PM

guess the images didnt load.. the link below will take you to all of them

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Hc&usp=sharing

thanks again!

troy

James K · January 13, 2014, 02:21 PM

Can you show pictures of the rifle itself, the top of the receiver, the left side and the rifle overall? It might be a training rifle, made for shooting 6.5mm blanks.

Jim

troysmith03 · January 13, 2014, 02:42 PM

yes i can tonight.. i thought that at first too but the barrel has rifling and i slugged it and measure .309-.310ish also i can push a 110gr vmax .308 down the barrel and get grooves on the jacket of the round. More to follow tonight

Thanks
Troy

BillM · January 13, 2014, 03:32 PM

300 Savage??

GeauxTigers · January 13, 2014, 06:03 PM

When you say the .308 is too long, by how much are we talking? I saw an old Arisaka a few years ago at a gun show that was rechambered for 7.62x39... As I understand it a lot of rifles that left Japan for the Chinese mainland underwent this conversion to accept the ever abundant Soviet ammo. Just a thought, may be way off but if it sparks a light bulb for somebody....

GeauxTigers · January 13, 2014, 06:19 PM

My bad I missed the pictures somehow, one look at them answers my question, nope.

PetahW · January 13, 2014, 06:52 PM

.

James K · January 13, 2014, 10:36 PM

Those chamber measurements don't add up to 7.62x39, they look like 7.62x51 or .308. What you might have is a rifle that has been rebarrelled to .308 but with a barrel that was short chambered and whoever did the work never got around to reaming it properly. I think it best to buck that gun to our old friend "a competent gunsmith" for a checkout before doing anything like shooting it. A standard Type 99 Japanese rifle is adequately strong for .308, but so many Japanese rifles have been badly mangled, and there are those cast iron training rifles. So I don't want to give advice based on pictures.

Jim

troysmith03 · January 14, 2014, 10:03 AM

Ive taken a few more pictures... so last night after measuring again i decided to see if i could make a .308 fit... it tapped into the chamber without too much force but now its stuck

i knew better but just couldnt help myself.. so tonight ill try and get it out of the chamber.. However im thinking of just purchasing a barrel from ebay and having a Smith change the barrel back to the original 7.7 since i already purchased brass and reloading dies. anyways check out the other pictures and let me know what you think...

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Hc&usp=sharing

thanks all!

Troy

Jim Watson · January 14, 2014, 10:36 AM

Agree with Jim K, it looks like a short chambered replacement barrel that was not reamed to set headspace. Wax is not the best for chamber casts, but yours seems to show a rather shallow shoulder, too. Chamber probably cut undersize overall with a roughing reamer.

Anecdote: My FLG was in operation in the heyday of surplus sporterizing before GCA 1968. He said that back then, any reputable gunsmith would have a lathe. Therefore replacement barrels could be chambered to full depth. If that made for excess chamber headspace on a particular action, the gunsmith could set it back just enough to correct it. No need for a chamber reamer, just a headspace gauge. Nowadays barrels are sold short chambered so the aspiring gunsmith doesn't have to pay for a lathe. But he has to have a reamer for every caliber he offers to barrel for.

WardenWolf · January 14, 2014, 11:54 AM

Okay, so it WAS a Type 99 at one point in its life. The bolt is original, just modified with a bent bolt handle. The good news is these are some of the strongest receivers ever made, and yours appears to be an early to mid-war production when the steel was still good.

Now, the real question is, what is it now? The cartridge almost appears to be a 6.5mm Japanese, not the 7.7 it is supposed to be chambered for. But the caliber is .30. Could there be a chamber insert to shorten the chamber? That would definitely explain it. Otherwise we're looking for an odd-shaped cartridge.

smarquez · January 16, 2014, 11:32 PM

Camber dimension is close to this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Savage
My FIL shot a Arisaka in 300 Savage his whole deer hunting life. Over 40 years.

Gunplummer · January 17, 2014, 01:19 AM

I did not look at the cartridge specs too close, as everyone else did. It LOOKS (Hard to tell) like the barrel was set back. There should be a flange butting against the face of the receiver and I don't see that. I have done it with a .308, but the most common changeover involving barrel set back was the .300 Savage. I had one and where the necks blend it can be a little off. It may be that. At 100 yards it shot great, but it left a ring in the brass where the necks blended together.

gyvel · January 17, 2014, 03:00 AM

Looks a lot like a .300 Savage to me.

Jim Watson · January 17, 2014, 09:25 PM

The neck looks short for a .300 Sav.

James K · January 17, 2014, 10:37 PM

Still hard to be sure but I am now leaning toward .300 Savage, partly because when so many of those rifles were being converted, .308 didn't exist, while .300 Savage was very common.

Jim

January 13, 2014, 12:43 PM	#1
troysmith03 Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2014 Posts: 4	help identifying unmarked japanese rifle chamber Hello all, I have researched this till im blue in the face and have come up with no aswers so i thought i might ask some experts.. I recently came into a Japanese Type 99 Rifle... well actually a box of parts that resembles a rifle. Everthing is there and complete except that i am sure this rifle has been re barreled. I know because i have made of 7.7 japanese brass and it is too long by over an inch to chamber in the rifle. So i have used wax to cast the rifles chamber and took measurement, however i have not come up with anything that fits the measurement i took, everything is too long.. The closest matches i have come up with is 7.5x54 MAS which is still too long and .308 winchester (also too long but just slightly..) i am tempted to lube up a factory fresh .308 case and fireform it to get better measurements but it will mean tapping the brass case into the chamber and hoping i get it in all the way to close the bolt :/.. so not exactly the process id like to move forward with unless i have no other choice. Anyways i have added photos of the casting and measurements hoping someone can give me advice on where to go from here.. also i have done reseach on the rifle itself and traced it back to the place of manufacture for the action.. it is early 1942 and IS NOT a training rifle receiver.. the bolt is not a factory bolt as it has a curved handle but has the correct style and function of safety.. also fun note the emporers seal is NOT defaced at all Thanks you for all your help!

January 13, 2014, 12:44 PM	#2
troysmith03 Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2014 Posts: 4	images link guess the images didnt load.. the link below will take you to all of them https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Hc&usp=sharing thanks again! troy

January 14, 2014, 10:03 AM	#10
troysmith03 Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2014 Posts: 4	more pictures Ive taken a few more pictures... so last night after measuring again i decided to see if i could make a .308 fit... it tapped into the chamber without too much force but now its stuck i knew better but just couldnt help myself.. so tonight ill try and get it out of the chamber.. However im thinking of just purchasing a barrel from ebay and having a Smith change the barrel back to the original 7.7 since i already purchased brass and reloading dies. anyways check out the other pictures and let me know what you think... https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Hc&usp=sharing thanks all! Troy

January 13, 2014, 02:21 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Can you show pictures of the rifle itself, the top of the receiver, the left side and the rifle overall? It might be a training rifle, made for shooting 6.5mm blanks. Jim

January 13, 2014, 02:42 PM	#4
troysmith03 Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2014 Posts: 4	yes i can tonight.. i thought that at first too but the barrel has rifling and i slugged it and measure .309-.310ish also i can push a 110gr vmax .308 down the barrel and get grooves on the jacket of the round. More to follow tonight Thanks Troy

January 13, 2014, 03:32 PM	#5
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	300 Savage??

January 13, 2014, 06:03 PM	#6
GeauxTigers Member Join Date: January 11, 2014 Posts: 19	When you say the .308 is too long, by how much are we talking? I saw an old Arisaka a few years ago at a gun show that was rechambered for 7.62x39... As I understand it a lot of rifles that left Japan for the Chinese mainland underwent this conversion to accept the ever abundant Soviet ammo. Just a thought, may be way off but if it sparks a light bulb for somebody....

January 13, 2014, 06:19 PM	#7
GeauxTigers Member Join Date: January 11, 2014 Posts: 19	My bad I missed the pictures somehow, one look at them answers my question, nope.

January 13, 2014, 06:52 PM	#8
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	.

January 13, 2014, 10:36 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Those chamber measurements don't add up to 7.62x39, they look like 7.62x51 or .308. What you might have is a rifle that has been rebarrelled to .308 but with a barrel that was short chambered and whoever did the work never got around to reaming it properly. I think it best to buck that gun to our old friend "a competent gunsmith" for a checkout before doing anything like shooting it. A standard Type 99 Japanese rifle is adequately strong for .308, but so many Japanese rifles have been badly mangled, and there are those cast iron training rifles. So I don't want to give advice based on pictures. Jim

January 14, 2014, 10:36 AM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Agree with Jim K, it looks like a short chambered replacement barrel that was not reamed to set headspace. Wax is not the best for chamber casts, but yours seems to show a rather shallow shoulder, too. Chamber probably cut undersize overall with a roughing reamer. Anecdote: My FLG was in operation in the heyday of surplus sporterizing before GCA 1968. He said that back then, any reputable gunsmith would have a lathe. Therefore replacement barrels could be chambered to full depth. If that made for excess chamber headspace on a particular action, the gunsmith could set it back just enough to correct it. No need for a chamber reamer, just a headspace gauge. Nowadays barrels are sold short chambered so the aspiring gunsmith doesn't have to pay for a lathe. But he has to have a reamer for every caliber he offers to barrel for.

January 14, 2014, 11:54 AM	#12
WardenWolf Junior member Join Date: December 12, 2013 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 135	Okay, so it WAS a Type 99 at one point in its life. The bolt is original, just modified with a bent bolt handle. The good news is these are some of the strongest receivers ever made, and yours appears to be an early to mid-war production when the steel was still good. Now, the real question is, what is it now? The cartridge almost appears to be a 6.5mm Japanese, not the 7.7 it is supposed to be chambered for. But the caliber is .30. Could there be a chamber insert to shorten the chamber? That would definitely explain it. Otherwise we're looking for an odd-shaped cartridge.

January 16, 2014, 11:32 PM	#13
smarquez Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2011 Posts: 135	Camber dimension is close to this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Savage My FIL shot a Arisaka in 300 Savage his whole deer hunting life. Over 40 years.

January 17, 2014, 01:19 AM	#14
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I did not look at the cartridge specs too close, as everyone else did. It LOOKS (Hard to tell) like the barrel was set back. There should be a flange butting against the face of the receiver and I don't see that. I have done it with a .308, but the most common changeover involving barrel set back was the .300 Savage. I had one and where the necks blend it can be a little off. It may be that. At 100 yards it shot great, but it left a ring in the brass where the necks blended together.

January 17, 2014, 03:00 AM	#15
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Looks a lot like a .300 Savage to me.

January 17, 2014, 09:25 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	The neck looks short for a .300 Sav.

January 17, 2014, 10:37 PM	#17
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Still hard to be sure but I am now leaning toward .300 Savage, partly because when so many of those rifles were being converted, .308 didn't exist, while .300 Savage was very common. Jim