Sooty cases, unburned powder; please help!

Kframe · May 1, 2001, 02:45 PM

Hi all,
I shot some of my .38 reloads today, and have a couple questions.

First, it's a 3" M10, and I'm shooting 125gr lead Lasercast over 7.0gr HS-6 and a standard primer.
According to some data I've seen, this is a near max (standard P) load, and should clock close to 1000fps from a 4" barrel.

Well, I realize that I lose a bit of oomph from the 3" tube, but I'm only hitting in the upper 800 range.

And, the outside of the cases are kinda sooty and there's visible unburned powder in the barrel and chambers.

So, obviously I'm not getting enough pressure, but I'm applying a fairly decent crimp.

So, do I add another .1-.2 grains and see what happens?

See, according to Hodgdgon's website, 7.2 is max standard velocity for the 125gr jacketed, and I've heard that you decrease the load about 5% for lead bullets.
So, if that is true, I really shouldn't add any more powder.

I'm looking to get about 1000fps out of the 3incher with the 125's.

I'm stumped.

Any ideas?
Thanks, -Kframe

E. BeauBeaux · May 1, 2001, 03:01 PM

Would need a little more info, standard primer [what brand]. What about the case [again what brand and case length]. With just what you have given check the burn rate on the HS-6 [might want to consider a faster burning powder for a short barrel]

Primers do differ from brand to brand, and case length adds to blank space in a case. A case near max length will not build up the same pressure as one at the trim to length measurement.

Maybe others with more knowledge can help better than I.

Kframe · May 1, 2001, 03:08 PM

Well, I use CCI & Winchester primers, I think this batch was Winchester. Yep, almost sure of it, the primers were brass colored, and I think the CCI's are silver colored.

Cases were R-P, but I use a bit of everything, and I don't sort them except for my target loads. (I'm just trying to work up some good plinkers/practice rounds.)

Case length; well, there you got me. These cases were once fired, so I'd bet they're just very slightly over-spec.
The .38Spl doesn't tend to stretch cases much, even after several firings, and since these are almost new I'd say they're toward the short end of the spectrum.

Thanks, -Kframe

**Bud Helms** · May 1, 2001, 03:26 PM

...

slo_dog · May 1, 2001, 04:29 PM

When using a mixed supply of cases you will find that case wall thickness is not the same on all cases .
This can and will effect your crimp .
Also you should check your O.A.L.
For myself I always sort the cases and load them by brand type and I use Federal Magnum primers and have not had this problem .

Paul B. · May 1, 2001, 04:37 PM

Kframe. I have never had a problem using jacketed data with cast bullets. Sounds to me like you're not getting consistant burning. I'd try increasing the charge slowly and see if that solves the problem. Sounds like your crimp should be OK. I've never used HS-6, so I don't even know where it stands on the burning rate charts. Then again, some powders, like Unique just naturally burn dirty, but in your case, it sounds more like incomplete comustion.
Paul B.

chemical_grenadier · May 1, 2001, 06:42 PM

In my experiences, the faster burning powders, such as Alliant's Red Dot or Bullseye, or Hodgdon Clays (not Universal Clays) tend to do better in the lower pressure cartridges, such as the .38 Special.

I use Hodgdon Clays to load up .38 Special as well as an occasional batch of reduced velocity .45 ACP's.

tonyz · May 2, 2001, 11:03 AM

I use to have a similar problem in 38Spl. I was getting a dirty case and unburned powder. This was with U.Clays and Titegroup also W231. I started useing the lee Factory Crimp Die and used a very heavy crimp. Problem is now history.

Tony

Kframe · May 2, 2001, 02:51 PM

Problem with a crusher-crimp is that you get split case mouths in a few firings.
With the amount of crimp I use, I get a good 8 loads out of a case before I see any cracks.
That's in 38s, the 357s don't last as long.

So, I'd rather just up the charge to achieve a clean pressure, than crimp the hell out of each round.

I think I'm gonna try another couple tenths and see what happens.

Thanks, -Kframe

Chris McDermott · May 2, 2001, 03:45 PM

K-Frame, I don't think that HS-6 is the best powder for what you want to do; I think something a little faster (Unique or Universal Clays) would work better. Short barrels just don't give the medium-to-slow powders time to finish burning.
As far as tight crimping, don't forget that part of the resistance to bullet movement should be from the case walls holding onto the bullet. Make sure that you aren't expanding the case mouth more than you need to for the bullet to seat properly. You shouldn't be able to twist the bullets after seating, before you crimp.

Kframe · May 2, 2001, 07:54 PM

Well, I gotta confess I don't use HS-6 as my main powder in 38.
For that I do use Clays, U.Clays, Red Dot, Bullseye, and currently, W231.

I just started loading some 357's, and have heard that HS-6 is good in that.
And it has been, I'm pleased with what my HS-6 357's are doing.
I have seen some data for it in 38, and figured, hey, if it works in two cartridges, great!
But, I think I'll stick to my other choices for clean, fast, 38's.

-Kframe

tonyz · May 2, 2001, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Problem with a crusher-crimp is that you get split case mouths in a few firings. With the amount of crimp I use, I get a good 8 loads out of a case before I see any
cracks.

I use a heavy crimp with the lee factory crimp die and the redding profile crimp die and I still get 15 plus reloads per case, many have been reloaded over 25 times and still in spec's. As stated above don't bell your cases to much. The major differace in case life is nickle plated compared to brass cases. The brass outlast the plated by a long shot.

Tony

Tree Rat · May 3, 2001, 09:32 AM

Kframe - No doubt your MAIN problem is the HS-6 which is simply the wrong propellant for the application. I recently had the same experience with 125's using Universal, a propellant that is even faster than HS-6. I loaded right up to max for +P and used a very firm crimp to bring up the pressure, but even that still resulted in lots of unburned propellant. I'm going to try Clays or similar burn rate. HS-6 and Universal are great propellant's but need to be pressured up for efficient results. Tree Rat.

Joe Gulish · May 4, 2001, 09:21 PM

I shoot H110 in my .357 mag at a max charge. The first time that I loaded them with stantard primers I had the same problem. But I switched to the magnum primers and a heavy
crimp and all the powder burns and the gun is not that dirty.

Good luck and have fun.

May 2, 2001, 11:03 AM	#8
tonyz Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Location: Wa Posts: 922	Lee Factory Crimp Die I use to have a similar problem in 38Spl. I was getting a dirty case and unburned powder. This was with U.Clays and Titegroup also W231. I started useing the lee Factory Crimp Die and used a very heavy crimp. Problem is now history. Tony

May 1, 2001, 02:45 PM	#1
Kframe Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 1999 Location: MN Posts: 640	Hi all, I shot some of my .38 reloads today, and have a couple questions. First, it's a 3" M10, and I'm shooting 125gr lead Lasercast over 7.0gr HS-6 and a standard primer. According to some data I've seen, this is a near max (standard P) load, and should clock close to 1000fps from a 4" barrel. Well, I realize that I lose a bit of oomph from the 3" tube, but I'm only hitting in the upper 800 range. And, the outside of the cases are kinda sooty and there's visible unburned powder in the barrel and chambers. So, obviously I'm not getting enough pressure, but I'm applying a fairly decent crimp. So, do I add another .1-.2 grains and see what happens? See, according to Hodgdgon's website, 7.2 is max standard velocity for the 125gr jacketed, and I've heard that you decrease the load about 5% for lead bullets. So, if that is true, I really shouldn't add any more powder. I'm looking to get about 1000fps out of the 3incher with the 125's. I'm stumped. Any ideas? Thanks, -Kframe

May 1, 2001, 03:01 PM	#2
E. BeauBeaux Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2000 Location: MS, CSA Posts: 377	Would need a little more info, standard primer [what brand]. What about the case [again what brand and case length]. With just what you have given check the burn rate on the HS-6 [might want to consider a faster burning powder for a short barrel] Primers do differ from brand to brand, and case length adds to blank space in a case. A case near max length will not build up the same pressure as one at the trim to length measurement. Maybe others with more knowledge can help better than I.

May 1, 2001, 03:08 PM	#3
Kframe Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 1999 Location: MN Posts: 640	Well, I use CCI & Winchester primers, I think this batch was Winchester. Yep, almost sure of it, the primers were brass colored, and I think the CCI's are silver colored. Cases were R-P, but I use a bit of everything, and I don't sort them except for my target loads. (I'm just trying to work up some good plinkers/practice rounds.) Case length; well, there you got me. These cases were once fired, so I'd bet they're just very slightly over-spec. The .38Spl doesn't tend to stretch cases much, even after several firings, and since these are almost new I'd say they're toward the short end of the spectrum. Thanks, -Kframe

May 1, 2001, 03:26 PM	#4
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	...

May 1, 2001, 04:29 PM	#5
slo_dog Member Join Date: February 20, 2001 Location: Mi. Posts: 23	When using a mixed supply of cases you will find that case wall thickness is not the same on all cases . This can and will effect your crimp . Also you should check your O.A.L. For myself I always sort the cases and load them by brand type and I use Federal Magnum primers and have not had this problem .

May 1, 2001, 04:37 PM	#6
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Kframe. I have never had a problem using jacketed data with cast bullets. Sounds to me like you're not getting consistant burning. I'd try increasing the charge slowly and see if that solves the problem. Sounds like your crimp should be OK. I've never used HS-6, so I don't even know where it stands on the burning rate charts. Then again, some powders, like Unique just naturally burn dirty, but in your case, it sounds more like incomplete comustion. Paul B.

May 1, 2001, 06:42 PM	#7
chemical_grenadier Member Join Date: April 27, 2001 Posts: 39	In my experiences, the faster burning powders, such as Alliant's Red Dot or Bullseye, or Hodgdon Clays (not Universal Clays) tend to do better in the lower pressure cartridges, such as the .38 Special. I use Hodgdon Clays to load up .38 Special as well as an occasional batch of reduced velocity .45 ACP's.

May 2, 2001, 02:51 PM	#9
Kframe Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 1999 Location: MN Posts: 640	Problem with a crusher-crimp is that you get split case mouths in a few firings. With the amount of crimp I use, I get a good 8 loads out of a case before I see any cracks. That's in 38s, the 357s don't last as long. So, I'd rather just up the charge to achieve a clean pressure, than crimp the hell out of each round. I think I'm gonna try another couple tenths and see what happens. Thanks, -Kframe

May 2, 2001, 03:45 PM	#10
Chris McDermott Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Posts: 245	K-Frame, I don't think that HS-6 is the best powder for what you want to do; I think something a little faster (Unique or Universal Clays) would work better. Short barrels just don't give the medium-to-slow powders time to finish burning. As far as tight crimping, don't forget that part of the resistance to bullet movement should be from the case walls holding onto the bullet. Make sure that you aren't expanding the case mouth more than you need to for the bullet to seat properly. You shouldn't be able to twist the bullets after seating, before you crimp.

May 2, 2001, 07:54 PM	#11
Kframe Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 1999 Location: MN Posts: 640	Well, I gotta confess I don't use HS-6 as my main powder in 38. For that I do use Clays, U.Clays, Red Dot, Bullseye, and currently, W231. I just started loading some 357's, and have heard that HS-6 is good in that. And it has been, I'm pleased with what my HS-6 357's are doing. I have seen some data for it in 38, and figured, hey, if it works in two cartridges, great! But, I think I'll stick to my other choices for clean, fast, 38's. -Kframe

May 3, 2001, 09:32 AM	#13
Tree Rat Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2000 Posts: 138	Kframe - No doubt your MAIN problem is the HS-6 which is simply the wrong propellant for the application. I recently had the same experience with 125's using Universal, a propellant that is even faster than HS-6. I loaded right up to max for +P and used a very firm crimp to bring up the pressure, but even that still resulted in lots of unburned propellant. I'm going to try Clays or similar burn rate. HS-6 and Universal are great propellant's but need to be pressured up for efficient results. Tree Rat.

May 4, 2001, 09:21 PM	#14
Joe Gulish Member Join Date: March 15, 2001 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 49	I shoot H110 in my .357 mag at a max charge. The first time that I loaded them with stantard primers I had the same problem. But I switched to the magnum primers and a heavy crimp and all the powder burns and the gun is not that dirty. Good luck and have fun.