Can 0.1grain make this much difference

Brad NSW · October 4, 2015, 09:18 PM

I want to know if I found the magic load for my gun or was this just dumb luck? (see photos) Any feedback would be appreciated. This seems too good to be true. Is it really possible that .1gn can make this much difference?

BACKGROUND
Me - I've shot and medaled at PACFLT leg matches in the 90's and I called all 15 shots good.
Range - 100 yards, no wind, 9x scope
Gun:
1. WWII 8mm Mauser with original barrel/bolt/chamber and sporterized stock.
2. I've never been able to get it to shoot any factory ammo better than 3min of angle.
3. Just pillar bedded and glassed to 1" past the barrel start.
4. Decided I would start reloading, so built a ladder of 5 loads, 5 shots each with Nosler 180gn Ballistic Tips.
43.9 IMR 4064 - 2.4" x 3.1"
43.0 IMR 4064 - 2.9" x 2.9"
43.1 IMR 4064 - 0.81" x 0.42"
43.2 IMR 4064 - 2.3" x 1.9"
43.3 IMR 4064 - 1.9" x 2.1"

Again, is this just luck? I'm heading out to the garage this week to build 25 rounds. 15 to double-check results at the range (100 and 200 yds) and 10 for deer season.

Thanks for any feedback. I need some experienced feedback cause right now I feel like I discovered the holy grail!

wpsdlrg · October 5, 2015, 07:20 AM

No intention to rain on your parade, or to insult you, but the chances of that exact load (43.1 grains) being SO much better than all the others are small. Not impossible.....just unlikely.

I would suspect that YOU had much to do with it. You just happened to do everything right....and produce an outstanding group. You were "in the zone". That is NOT to say that this load is not the best of the lot - it may well be.

But, 5 rounds for each load is simply not enough to be sure. I never test a new load with any fewer than 15 rounds, right at the beginning. That is only for the first test. After weeding out the non-performing loads, I test 25 of each of the good loads. Then I have a pretty good idea of what works.

I'd almost bet that your results will be different if you try 15 of each load and run the test again. You may well still find that 43.1 is the best of the lot, but the group sizes could well be closer to each other.

5 is just not enough to tell anything.

Brad NSW · October 5, 2015, 09:42 AM

Thanks wpsdlrg,

I'll be in the garage making 25 rounds at that load and taking them out to the range in a few weeks.

Seemed too good to be true. I couldn't believe .1gn would make so much difference. Statistically 5 Sub MOA rounds out of the dozens of 5 round groups I've shot that were all around 2" seems like a weird fluke.

I'll shoot them and see what kind of groups they make. Would be nice if they stayed tight!

The gun is 60 years old and has lots of use. Original barrel and my guess is my grandfather and I have shot over 500 rounds through it. Who knows how much use it saw in WWII?

Jim243 · October 5, 2015, 10:03 AM

Quote:

43.1 IMR 4064 - 0.81" x 0.42"

Seems like the question is "does 1/10 of a grain make that much difference?".

I can only say, that sometimes it does depending on barrel length and harmonic whip for a given weight bullet. And some times it does not.

I would guess that the work you did on the rifle, bedding and adding glass had more to do with the results than an additional 1/10 grain of powder.

HOWEVER. when working up accuracy loads for my rifles, I use my RCBS ChargeMaster 1500 to get EXACT loads that are not even a 10th different from the next to insure consistency in each and every round. This will give better results since each bullet will more than likely go to the same place each and every shot (hopefully no wind at the time to mess up the results.)

Since there are a whole load of outside factors involved, including trigger pull, how the stock is welled to your shoulder as well as temp, wind and where the sun is in relation to your sights, it is unlikely that 1/10 of a grain will have a great effect on your results. Then again, there is no question that you seem to have found the "Magic Bullet" for that rifle and bullet.

If you can repeat your results, I would say "Congratulations and keep that load locked in."

Good luck and stay safe.
Jim

T. O'Heir · October 5, 2015, 12:17 PM

Did when I worked up the load for my '03A4. Same powder. Went from about an inch to touching with a tenth.
"...all around 2"..." Is friggin' great with a hunting rifle. Consistency is the most important part of the whole thing.
W.W. II ended 70 years ago. It was in all the papers. snicker.

Sevens · October 5, 2015, 12:40 PM

I would love it if I were proven wrong but I will give my opinion that there is no way, NO WAY, that one-tenth of a grain did that. You aren't even talking about one-tenth in a charge weight of 5.0 grains, you are talking one-tenth in a -41- grain charge. That's 0.024 percent! Not two percent mind you, but one-tenth of two percent. That's like if a guy had a rifle for sale and you offered $1,000 and he said "no way!" so you paused and said "will ya take $1002?" and he jumps across the table to hug you like you're his brother and hand you the rifle.

The difference there is statistically insignificant and almost ceases to exist.

Now, with all that said, I will openly and freely admit that I merely dabble in rifle loading, I am a hardcore handgunner and while I load enough rifle ammo to fit my needs, all of my hobby side of this is handguns.

And truly, I do want for your hypothesis to be correct, I am ALWAYS rooting for the handloader!

As much as anything, I wanted to state my skepticism so I can subscribe and hear more results of more tests.

The numbers, at least right now, support my idea. You have put FIVE rounds down range at that sweet spot. I say that if your next 25 rounds do seriously well, I would really love to see 10 or 15 rounds crafted just two-tenths in each direction also. I think they would also shoot well.

If it -REALLY- ends up being just one-tenth...
Now I would ask about your scale and how often you zero that scale. One-tenth in a 41gr charge?! Wow. And I would also ask if you weigh your bullets or if you are measuring the water capacity (volume) of your brass. Bullet to bullet needs to be a third of a grain to meet the some percent consistency of one-tenth powder in a 41gr charge.

I am rooting for you -- please don't get me wrong! But I also kind of rooting against the idea that a "perfect" rifle handload does not need to be put together with single pieces of extruded powder picked up by tweezers and measured end-to-end for consistency!

jwrowland77 · October 5, 2015, 01:38 PM

I do a lot of rifle reloading and shooting, I would find it very hard for .1gr to make any difference in rifle. Simply because you're dealing with a 40+gr charge weight. Heck, unless you have one of those high dollar scales that measure to the .02gr difference (where you can pretty much get it to the kernel), your other test loads were probably plus or minus the charge weight you were after anyway.

In pistol, .1gr is going to mean more.

In rifle, the closest I'll make test loads for is in .2gr differences.

jmr40 · October 5, 2015, 02:27 PM

I load to the closest .5 gr. I might start at 40 gr, then try 40.5, 41, 42.5 etc. I've never had a problem finding a load that works.

Pond, James Pond · October 5, 2015, 02:36 PM

Quote:

If you can repeat your results, I would say "Congratulations and keep that load locked in."

This seems the most likely solution. I can't say if it's possible or not: I know too little about reloading. I would guess not, but that is a guess.

So you repeat the test in as similar conditions as you can manage: same weather if possible, same gloves, same quantity of coffee in the morning!!

If you get results similar to those above, you're on to a winner.

Quote:

a "perfect" rifle handload does not need to be put together with single pieces of extruded powder picked up by tweezers and measured end-to-end for consistency!

So.. hang on a sec'? I've been doing it all wrong?!

And you tell me this NOW?!?

jwrowland77 · October 5, 2015, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond

same quantity of coffee in the morning!!

You got a smiley face behind the coffee there, but same amount of coffee or less can actually make a big difference. It could make you less or more jittery.

Pond, James Pond · October 5, 2015, 02:59 PM

That is true, but my shooting goes downhill quite fast when my eyes are closed and I'm drooling so at least one cup is a must for me.

jwrowland77 · October 5, 2015, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond

That is true, but my shooting goes downhill quite fast when my eyes are closed and I'm drooling so at least one cup is a must for me.

I'm right there with you. I drink at least 3 cups in the mornings. Days I'm not shooting, it's a 30oz cup, but just one of those.

Shimpy · October 5, 2015, 04:02 PM

1/10 of a grain?.....No way. Back when I used to shoot benchrest nobody ever weighed their charges but based them on volume not weight. Using a good powder measure that would throw consistent charges gave the best groups and I never knew what my charges weighed except when I started fireforming wildcat cartridges. I used a Belding & Mall powder measure drop tube in a measure I made and sold at that time.
If you are going to fuss about 1/10 grain then weigh your cases and bullets.

Brad NSW · October 5, 2015, 04:34 PM

Thanks all. About what I thought.

I'm loading up 25 at that weight and see if they open up to the normal 1.5-2" group for this gun.

James, I don't touch the coffee but I'll make sure to use the same brand snus!

Mobuck · October 6, 2015, 07:43 PM

With that capacity case, I load in .5 grain increments.
Regarding that amazing group: sometimes the wobbles offset the wiggles. It happens to me now and then.

5whiskey · October 6, 2015, 09:29 PM

I usually work up in .5 grain increments with this much case capacity. Once I get the best load in .5 grain increments I often try a second batch with the original best load, 1 load .3 grains above it, and 1 load .3 grains below it. Only once did I see a very noticeable difference during the second test (went from .6 moa to about .45). I repeated the test with 3 5-round strings with the two best loads to make sure it wasn't a fluke. It was not.

Long story short, no .1 grain in a 8mm mauser did not make a 2moa rifle a 1/2moa rifle. God loved you that string.

tangolima · October 6, 2015, 11:34 PM

The method I use could be a bit unconventional, but it works for me.

I do 5% steps. So for 40gr load, it would be 2gr difference. First round is coarse screening. 5 rounds for each load, and observe poi, not group size. I am looking for inflexion point in poi.

Once I find the inflexion point, I will have 3 loads of at least 10 rounds each, and 2.5%, 1gr difference, and observe the group size.

-TL

Metal god · October 7, 2015, 11:12 AM

2+ moa to sub moa with .1gr Not likely but may happen I guess . I do believe tenths of a grain do make a difference though . I'll work up in .5gr increments . When I find something good I then load in .1gr increments on each side of that load . When doing so the good load is already moa or better . I do the .1 increments to see if I can close it up a little better .

Example : 178gr A-Max and 40.5gr IMR 4064 shoots sub moa .8-ish . I have found that 40.3gr will give me .5 moa pretty consistently and 40gr is like 1.1 moa . So IMHO tenths do matter . I'm just not sure if 1 tenth is going to change as much as yours did .

Quote:

a "perfect" rifle handload does not need to be put together with single pieces of extruded powder picked up by tweezers and measured end-to-end for consistency!

I do that very thing . OK not exactly but I throw close , trickle closer then use tweezers to place the last nuggets in the pan . Now that's only for my very best loads using long extruded powder like IMR 4064 .

briandg · October 7, 2015, 11:45 AM

That's a tough question. You'll find anecdotal reports of this happening, then you will find others who say that weight isn't what matters to accuracy, that volume is more important, and they will use bulk measure and not concern themselves with fractions of a grain.

I am agreeing with those who say that it's unlikely that the load is what made it best. You may have subconsciously altered your routine. You may have hit your stride. You may have had one of those magic moments when your personal error margin worked with the rifle to guide those bullets into a tight group; everyone has an occasional X ring group rather than their usual not so great.

Occams razor tells us that after you have ruled out the more complicated questions, or for that matter, as many as you can, the remaining one is the most likely. It doesn't apply here, except in an oblique way. It's my belief that 1/10th of a grain difference, sandwiched in between twenty other rounds, isn't very likely to reduce the groups by half. There have to be other explanations. I believe that this was a fluke that you won't be able to duplicate. Honestly, do you expect a 70 year old war relic to shoot sub MOA groups, or do you believe that there is another explanation?

Sevens · October 7, 2015, 02:34 PM

I think we need to keep in mind that the OP's evidence here is based on FIVE loaded rounds.

He made an array of five different loads and one of the five turned in a phenomenal group. There is -MUCH- reason to pursue more data and do far more testing and this conversation has been completely enjoyable, HOWEVER:

if you went out and bought 5 lottery tickets and one of them was a winner, would anyone come to the conclusion that you now have the ability to win 20% of any lottery you enter?

Jimro · October 7, 2015, 02:59 PM

Generally no, a tenth of a grain with 4064 isn't going to be that amazing. Doesn't mean it can't happen, just that it isn't normal.

Also I think you can bump up the charge a bit more too and see if that doesn't help the accuracy tighten up. 4064 is a very forgiving powder for 8x57 Hodgdon lists 45 gr compressed as max, and I've used that under 185gr Rem bullets with good accuracy.

What you want is a load that doesn't change significantly between .3 grains spread. Finding that one perfect load that needs to be held to a .1 spread means you are on the "ragged edge" of accuracy. So a rise or fall in temperature, or angle of the rifle as fired, and it can all go away.

emcon5 · October 7, 2015, 06:53 PM

IMR4064 is pretty long grained powder, I would expect ~.1 grain variation from throw to throw of even a good powder measure.

AllenJ · October 9, 2015, 11:38 AM

Quote:

What you want is a load that doesn't change significantly between .3 grains spread. Finding that one perfect load that needs to be held to a .1 spread means you are on the "ragged edge" of accuracy. So a rise or fall in temperature, or angle of the rifle as fired, and it can all go away.

+1 Jimro.

My thoughts are a tenth of a grain difference is general not going to make that kind of difference but even if it is that is not the load you want unless you can ensure that the temperature, humidity, and elevation are all the same.

jwrowland77 · October 9, 2015, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emcon5

IMR4064 is pretty long grained powder, I would expect ~.1 grain variation from throw to throw of even a good powder measure.

Exactly! Only way to know of a for sure .1gr difference in charge, is to have one of those scales that weigh down to the .02gr, and a kernel or two will change charge weight.

Longshot4 · October 9, 2015, 07:25 PM

Don't change any thing. Now see if you can do it again. I think it's a good load but what did you do to get the rifle to get it to shoot? Check the rest, stock and hold. If you can find what changed you should be able to do it again. Otherwise forget about it.

October 5, 2015, 09:42 AM	#3
Brad NSW Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2015 Location: San Diego Posts: 5	Thanks wpsdlrg, I'll be in the garage making 25 rounds at that load and taking them out to the range in a few weeks. Seemed too good to be true. I couldn't believe .1gn would make so much difference. Statistically 5 Sub MOA rounds out of the dozens of 5 round groups I've shot that were all around 2" seems like a weird fluke. I'll shoot them and see what kind of groups they make. Would be nice if they stayed tight! The gun is 60 years old and has lots of use. Original barrel and my guess is my grandfather and I have shot over 500 rounds through it. Who knows how much use it saw in WWII? __________________ Brad 7mm Mag and 8mm Mauser

October 5, 2015, 12:17 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Did when I worked up the load for my '03A4. Same powder. Went from about an inch to touching with a tenth. "...all around 2"..." Is friggin' great with a hunting rifle. Consistency is the most important part of the whole thing. W.W. II ended 70 years ago. It was in all the papers. snicker. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

October 5, 2015, 12:40 PM	#6
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I would love it if I were proven wrong but I will give my opinion that there is no way, NO WAY, that one-tenth of a grain did that. You aren't even talking about one-tenth in a charge weight of 5.0 grains, you are talking one-tenth in a -41- grain charge. That's 0.024 percent! Not two percent mind you, but one-tenth of two percent. That's like if a guy had a rifle for sale and you offered $1,000 and he said "no way!" so you paused and said "will ya take $1002?" and he jumps across the table to hug you like you're his brother and hand you the rifle. The difference there is statistically insignificant and almost ceases to exist. Now, with all that said, I will openly and freely admit that I merely dabble in rifle loading, I am a hardcore handgunner and while I load enough rifle ammo to fit my needs, all of my hobby side of this is handguns. And truly, I do want for your hypothesis to be correct, I am ALWAYS rooting for the handloader! As much as anything, I wanted to state my skepticism so I can subscribe and hear more results of more tests. The numbers, at least right now, support my idea. You have put FIVE rounds down range at that sweet spot. I say that if your next 25 rounds do seriously well, I would really love to see 10 or 15 rounds crafted just two-tenths in each direction also. I think they would also shoot well. If it -REALLY- ends up being just one-tenth... Now I would ask about your scale and how often you zero that scale. One-tenth in a 41gr charge?! Wow. And I would also ask if you weigh your bullets or if you are measuring the water capacity (volume) of your brass. Bullet to bullet needs to be a third of a grain to meet the some percent consistency of one-tenth powder in a 41gr charge. I am rooting for you -- please don't get me wrong! But I also kind of rooting against the idea that a "perfect" rifle handload does not need to be put together with single pieces of extruded powder picked up by tweezers and measured end-to-end for consistency! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 5, 2015, 01:38 PM	#7
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Can 0.1grain make this much difference I do a lot of rifle reloading and shooting, I would find it very hard for .1gr to make any difference in rifle. Simply because you're dealing with a 40+gr charge weight. Heck, unless you have one of those high dollar scales that measure to the .02gr difference (where you can pretty much get it to the kernel), your other test loads were probably plus or minus the charge weight you were after anyway. In pistol, .1gr is going to mean more. In rifle, the closest I'll make test loads for is in .2gr differences.

October 5, 2015, 02:59 PM	#11
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	That is true, but my shooting goes downhill quite fast when my eyes are closed and I'm drooling so at least one cup is a must for me. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

October 5, 2015, 07:20 AM	#2
wpsdlrg Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2009 Posts: 826	No intention to rain on your parade, or to insult you, but the chances of that exact load (43.1 grains) being SO much better than all the others are small. Not impossible.....just unlikely. I would suspect that YOU had much to do with it. You just happened to do everything right....and produce an outstanding group. You were "in the zone". That is NOT to say that this load is not the best of the lot - it may well be. But, 5 rounds for each load is simply not enough to be sure. I never test a new load with any fewer than 15 rounds, right at the beginning. That is only for the first test. After weeding out the non-performing loads, I test 25 of each of the good loads. Then I have a pretty good idea of what works. I'd almost bet that your results will be different if you try 15 of each load and run the test again. You may well still find that 43.1 is the best of the lot, but the group sizes could well be closer to each other. 5 is just not enough to tell anything.

October 5, 2015, 02:27 PM	#8
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	I load to the closest .5 gr. I might start at 40 gr, then try 40.5, 41, 42.5 etc. I've never had a problem finding a load that works.

October 5, 2015, 04:02 PM	#13
Shimpy Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 153	1/10 of a grain?.....No way. Back when I used to shoot benchrest nobody ever weighed their charges but based them on volume not weight. Using a good powder measure that would throw consistent charges gave the best groups and I never knew what my charges weighed except when I started fireforming wildcat cartridges. I used a Belding & Mall powder measure drop tube in a measure I made and sold at that time. If you are going to fuss about 1/10 grain then weigh your cases and bullets.

October 5, 2015, 04:34 PM	#14
Brad NSW Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2015 Location: San Diego Posts: 5	Thanks all. About what I thought. I'm loading up 25 at that weight and see if they open up to the normal 1.5-2" group for this gun. James, I don't touch the coffee but I'll make sure to use the same brand snus! __________________ Brad 7mm Mag and 8mm Mauser

October 6, 2015, 07:43 PM	#15
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	With that capacity case, I load in .5 grain increments. Regarding that amazing group: sometimes the wobbles offset the wiggles. It happens to me now and then.

October 6, 2015, 09:29 PM	#16
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,657	I usually work up in .5 grain increments with this much case capacity. Once I get the best load in .5 grain increments I often try a second batch with the original best load, 1 load .3 grains above it, and 1 load .3 grains below it. Only once did I see a very noticeable difference during the second test (went from .6 moa to about .45). I repeated the test with 3 5-round strings with the two best loads to make sure it wasn't a fluke. It was not. Long story short, no .1 grain in a 8mm mauser did not make a 2moa rifle a 1/2moa rifle. God loved you that string.

October 6, 2015, 11:34 PM	#17
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,825	The method I use could be a bit unconventional, but it works for me. I do 5% steps. So for 40gr load, it would be 2gr difference. First round is coarse screening. 5 rounds for each load, and observe poi, not group size. I am looking for inflexion point in poi. Once I find the inflexion point, I will have 3 loads of at least 10 rounds each, and 2.5%, 1gr difference, and observe the group size. -TL

October 7, 2015, 11:45 AM	#19
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	That's a tough question. You'll find anecdotal reports of this happening, then you will find others who say that weight isn't what matters to accuracy, that volume is more important, and they will use bulk measure and not concern themselves with fractions of a grain. I am agreeing with those who say that it's unlikely that the load is what made it best. You may have subconsciously altered your routine. You may have hit your stride. You may have had one of those magic moments when your personal error margin worked with the rifle to guide those bullets into a tight group; everyone has an occasional X ring group rather than their usual not so great. Occams razor tells us that after you have ruled out the more complicated questions, or for that matter, as many as you can, the remaining one is the most likely. It doesn't apply here, except in an oblique way. It's my belief that 1/10th of a grain difference, sandwiched in between twenty other rounds, isn't very likely to reduce the groups by half. There have to be other explanations. I believe that this was a fluke that you won't be able to duplicate. Honestly, do you expect a 70 year old war relic to shoot sub MOA groups, or do you believe that there is another explanation?

October 7, 2015, 02:34 PM	#20
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I think we need to keep in mind that the OP's evidence here is based on FIVE loaded rounds. He made an array of five different loads and one of the five turned in a phenomenal group. There is -MUCH- reason to pursue more data and do far more testing and this conversation has been completely enjoyable, HOWEVER: if you went out and bought 5 lottery tickets and one of them was a winner, would anyone come to the conclusion that you now have the ability to win 20% of any lottery you enter? __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 7, 2015, 02:59 PM	#21
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Generally no, a tenth of a grain with 4064 isn't going to be that amazing. Doesn't mean it can't happen, just that it isn't normal. Also I think you can bump up the charge a bit more too and see if that doesn't help the accuracy tighten up. 4064 is a very forgiving powder for 8x57 Hodgdon lists 45 gr compressed as max, and I've used that under 185gr Rem bullets with good accuracy. What you want is a load that doesn't change significantly between .3 grains spread. Finding that one perfect load that needs to be held to a .1 spread means you are on the "ragged edge" of accuracy. So a rise or fall in temperature, or angle of the rifle as fired, and it can all go away. __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

October 7, 2015, 06:53 PM	#22
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	IMR4064 is pretty long grained powder, I would expect ~.1 grain variation from throw to throw of even a good powder measure.

October 9, 2015, 07:25 PM	#25
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	Don't change any thing. Now see if you can do it again. I think it's a good load but what did you do to get the rifle to get it to shoot? Check the rest, stock and hold. If you can find what changed you should be able to do it again. Otherwise forget about it.