handguns for stopping vehicles

simonrichter · May 21, 2015, 12:31 PM

Using handguns to stop cars or even trucks is a scenario often depicted in movies and for LEOs or security personnel, it is not a completely hypothetical scenario even in real life.

When I think back to Bond's good old PPK, the respective performance of pistols seems a little overrated in the movies, thus my question: What is the minimum caliber that has the potential to

a.) penetrate a tire
b.) stop an assailant through the windshield

Let's assume that "potential" means a 50% penetration probability out of a advantageous angle, from 20 feet away...

Bill DeShivs · May 21, 2015, 01:57 PM

As a general rule, you don't shoot at cars.
Any handgun round can be easily deflected by a windshield.

jmr40 · May 21, 2015, 02:25 PM

I wouldn't call it common, but LE do have to shoot through windshields at drivers who are driving towards them in an aggressive manner. I'm sure the bullets path is changed after going through the glass, but most will go through. It comes up from time to time.

Taking out tires is something that has been attempted in the past with limited success. Engines, I have my doubts. Even if you get enough penetration to damage an engine it'll run for a while before it quits.

James K · May 21, 2015, 02:53 PM

Shooting out tires falls into the same category as shooting a gun out of the bad guy's hand. Looks great in the movies and TV, and is such a nice, humane way to stop the BG without hurting anyone, but it doesn't happen. The dangers to innocent people are the same as shooting at the evil (presumably) person, and the likelihood of it working are a lot less.

Jim

BarryLee · May 21, 2015, 03:14 PM

Here’s a video of the Mythbusters stopping an engine with what appears to be a SIG 9mm. The bullet penetrates the grill, radiator and timing chain housing and stops the engine. So, if you want to penetrate the engine block with a handgun go S&W 500. However, fire most any handgun into the engine compartment and you might get lucky and hit something like the battery, alternator, distributor, etc that stops the engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpDQUBfQVy8

leadcounsel · May 21, 2015, 03:48 PM

Civilian cars offer nearly zero protection from any direction from even 9mm handgun rounds, with the notable exception of the large piece of metal known as the engine, and perhaps the layers of steel located behind the axle and wheels.

Think of cars as concealment (only behind the metal parts), and not cover.

Bullets behave weirdly, and can be deflected from windshields or otherwise non-bullet proof items placed at weird angles or during movement.

But I wouldn't bet on a windshield or tire to reliably stop a 9mm. The engine will reliably stop a 9mm (except the lucky bullets that weave their way past it) but the engine and necessary parts will suffer debilitating damage and soon stop working (radiator, hoses, belts, pullys, fans, compression, spark plugs, etc.). A car isn't going to go very far once some of these items are compromised.

In the real world, it would be nonsense to aim for the tire. Using lethal force means using lethal force, and an unarmored driver's compartment offers almost zero protection except from the direct front, protected by the engine block. Doors are thin sheet metal offering zero ballistic protection, and vertical windows offer zero ballistic protection.

Experience: An evasive driving and shooting school sponsored by US Army Special Forces. Shooting through windshields and car parts. Learning how to mildly makeshift up-armor a civilian vehicle with common household items in an emergency. But the windows are always a weakness. Also, curiosity has led me to a lot of 2nd hand experience regarding ballistics and watching videos, reading, etc.

Here's a couple of good sites:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buic...and-car-doors/
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buic...lds-outsidein/

Japle · May 21, 2015, 07:48 PM

Jim Watson · May 21, 2015, 08:03 PM

A friend was a fine shot and was tasked by his department with making sure a vehicle did not leave the scene of a drug transaction.
Never mind the handgun, he showed up with a .30-06 and some AP.
Not needed in the event, but ready.

burrhead · May 21, 2015, 08:16 PM

I am not a peace officer but I work with some on a regular basis. I know one that shredded the tire of a truck he was chasing with a shotgun. He said it took four tries to hit it and it was all very exciting. This was at night in a rural area stopping a smuggler at high speed. He's sort of an adrenaline junky.

Colt46 · May 21, 2015, 08:45 PM

A car close enough to be a physical danger won't stop very quickly unless you hit it with a howitzer.

98 220 swift · May 22, 2015, 07:57 AM

As being a auto tech for Ford and Chrysler for almost 20 years I can put some input into this. I have seen cars(trucks) run for a long time with out coolant or oil. A shot through the radiator will take several minutes if not longer depending on how hard the engine was being run. Same with oil. During the cash for clunkers deal we had to drain the oil and lock up the engines. We have a large field behind the dealership. We would pull them in and drain the oil then drive them out to the field and run the ish out of them. None locked up until we poured liquid glass in them. Taking out the alternator the vehicle will still run for several miles on the battery alone. On modern vehicles there is no distributor to take out. Best bet would be the pcm which is normally hidden and would be very difficult to hit. Or possibly hit the wiring harness in just the right place(almost imposible). Hitting the timing chain and breaking it would also work( again almost impossible). Maybe the best would be a shot in the trans pan once it drains out (which wouldn't take too long depending on hole size) the trans will stop puling as long as it is a automatic. I would not try to stop a vehicle buy shooting the engine. I am sure it has happed with lucky shots in the past though.

Moomooboo · May 22, 2015, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryLee

Here’s a video of the Mythbusters stopping an engine with what appears to be a SIG 9mm. The bullet penetrates the grill, radiator and timing chain housing and stops the engine. So, if you want to penetrate the engine block with a handgun go S&W 500. However, fire most any handgun into the engine compartment and you might get lucky and hit something like the battery, alternator, distributor, etc that stops the engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpDQUBfQVy8

Is the sw 500 even feasible to shoot accurately under stress along with carrying on a saily basis and recoil?

I ask because i was offered it in a trade but i turned it down

TimSr · May 22, 2015, 09:42 AM

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-n...atv-dirt-bikes

This guy shot two tires out of a truck with a 12 guage. No mention of shot size. Can't tell, but it appears the vehicle may have been stopped when he did it to keep them from fleeing with his stuff.

**OldMarksman** · May 22, 2015, 09:47 AM

Let anyone think about doing it, DO NOT.

The idea is unsound tacit ally and in almost all cases, legally.

kilimanjaro · May 22, 2015, 09:59 AM

Knew a guy once who had a friend try and shoot out a car tire with a pistol. The bullet bounced off the tire and struck a bystander. He was arrested along with the bad guys stealing his car.

**44 AMP** · May 22, 2015, 10:33 AM

They all stop if you remove the loose nut behind the wheel.

Car door are thin sheetmetal, except for those that have a steel beam in them. And you know Murphy, if you need to shoot through a car door, odds are good you will hit the beam.

If you are a cop, or a solider, do what they teach you to do.

If you aren't, you pretty much don't have any business shooting a car.

#1, "Stand your ground" when a car is bearing down on you is kind of STUPID!
#2, the car is not the threat, the driver is
#3, good luck with legal justification if the car is trying to "get away"

You can kill a car with a handgun. But the "one shot stop, DRT" isn't likely. IF you are legally justified to shoot, SHOOT THE DRIVER. That's the threat.

Shooting the car might be considered "proof" that you were in doubt about the use of deadly force, and if you ARE in doubt, you cannot legally shoot.

peggysue · May 22, 2015, 10:51 AM

MY S&W M500 with 700 gr. Hardcast http://www.ballisticsupply.net/defau...x?tabid=252105

lee n. field · May 22, 2015, 10:58 AM

oh, interesting. Tell us about that .500 S&W bullet.

Glenn E. Meyer · May 22, 2015, 11:49 AM

Having been in a class with extensive testing of all kinds of rounds on various car parts -

1. Most 9mm, 38, 40, 45 will go right through the glass on all sides. Hit it square and it may straight through. Thus in the circumstance that you were attacked by someone while you were in the car, you can do.

Of course, if you can drive away - do so. You can shoot through the windshield - but you must think of circumstance.

These were tests for extreme incidents.

2. The car sides won't stop anything except in some quixotic circumstances. For example, I saw a 12 gauge slug deflected down by the crash bar. Wouldn't count on it.

If you crouch besides the car, it is fairly easy to shoot you under the car by skipping rounds.

DA/SA Fan · May 22, 2015, 12:23 PM

If someone you don't know just shoved your granddaughter in his car and took off I'm sure you have good reason to try for the tires or engine compartment instead of the driver.

slugchucker · May 22, 2015, 12:30 PM

This gun may not stop a car instantly, but, it tends to slow them down when spotted by the driver........ a radar gun!

peggysue · May 22, 2015, 05:10 PM

http://mattsbullets.com/ammunition/i...963cc482a36567

EnoughGUN · May 22, 2015, 10:52 PM

I remember years ago reading about some special rounds one of which was (I believe) a thv tungsten steel bullet in 357 mag. Article said it "whizzed" through the block of a 350 and was still lethal upon exit. I would think punching a hole through an engine especially if that crossed rods or pistons would do the trick. Honestly dont know how realistic their claim was.

just occurred to me, better to just shoot the ecu, battery or any main harness section (shot gun probably best bet) on a modern car. They run at the limit of the 12 volt system these days and a huge disruption in voltage will likely bring it to a stop.

Deaf Smith · May 23, 2015, 05:22 AM

Just get an AK pistol. 7.62x39, even from a short AK barrel, ought to do the trick.

Deaf

Ibmikey · May 23, 2015, 06:21 AM

Get real fellows, the chance a situation would present it's self where an individual would be faced with a car killing decision are astronomical. Second, if one did shoot at a vehicle I can just see all the ramifications of such an act. Unless your concealed carry is a RPG I would suggest concealed carry is for defensive protection and not assaults on the Nation's motor vehicles.

May 21, 2015, 03:14 PM	#5
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	Here’s a video of the Mythbusters stopping an engine with what appears to be a SIG 9mm. The bullet penetrates the grill, radiator and timing chain housing and stops the engine. So, if you want to penetrate the engine block with a handgun go S&W 500. However, fire most any handgun into the engine compartment and you might get lucky and hit something like the battery, alternator, distributor, etc that stops the engine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpDQUBfQVy8 __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

May 21, 2015, 03:48 PM	#6
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	Civilian cars offer nearly zero protection from any direction from even 9mm handgun rounds, with the notable exception of the large piece of metal known as the engine, and perhaps the layers of steel located behind the axle and wheels. Think of cars as concealment (only behind the metal parts), and not cover. Bullets behave weirdly, and can be deflected from windshields or otherwise non-bullet proof items placed at weird angles or during movement. But I wouldn't bet on a windshield or tire to reliably stop a 9mm. The engine will reliably stop a 9mm (except the lucky bullets that weave their way past it) but the engine and necessary parts will suffer debilitating damage and soon stop working (radiator, hoses, belts, pullys, fans, compression, spark plugs, etc.). A car isn't going to go very far once some of these items are compromised. In the real world, it would be nonsense to aim for the tire. Using lethal force means using lethal force, and an unarmored driver's compartment offers almost zero protection except from the direct front, protected by the engine block. Doors are thin sheet metal offering zero ballistic protection, and vertical windows offer zero ballistic protection. Experience: An evasive driving and shooting school sponsored by US Army Special Forces. Shooting through windshields and car parts. Learning how to mildly makeshift up-armor a civilian vehicle with common household items in an emergency. But the windows are always a weakness. Also, curiosity has led me to a lot of 2nd hand experience regarding ballistics and watching videos, reading, etc. Here's a couple of good sites: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buic...and-car-doors/ http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buic...lds-outsidein/ Last edited by leadcounsel; May 21, 2015 at 03:53 PM.

May 21, 2015, 08:16 PM	#9
burrhead Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 1999 Location: Chihuahuan desert, Texas Posts: 1,148	I am not a peace officer but I work with some on a regular basis. I know one that shredded the tire of a truck he was chasing with a shotgun. He said it took four tries to hit it and it was all very exciting. This was at night in a rural area stopping a smuggler at high speed. He's sort of an adrenaline junky. __________________ Join the GOA, SAF and the TSRA I'm offended by people that are easily offended.

May 21, 2015, 08:45 PM	#10
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	I think your best bet would be disabling the driver A car close enough to be a physical danger won't stop very quickly unless you hit it with a howitzer.

May 22, 2015, 10:33 AM	#16
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	They all stop if you remove the loose nut behind the wheel. Car door are thin sheetmetal, except for those that have a steel beam in them. And you know Murphy, if you need to shoot through a car door, odds are good you will hit the beam. If you are a cop, or a solider, do what they teach you to do. If you aren't, you pretty much don't have any business shooting a car. #1, "Stand your ground" when a car is bearing down on you is kind of STUPID! #2, the car is not the threat, the driver is #3, good luck with legal justification if the car is trying to "get away" You can kill a car with a handgun. But the "one shot stop, DRT" isn't likely. IF you are legally justified to shoot, SHOOT THE DRIVER. That's the threat. Shooting the car might be considered "proof" that you were in doubt about the use of deadly force, and if you ARE in doubt, you cannot legally shoot. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 21, 2015, 12:31 PM	#1
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	handguns for stopping vehicles Using handguns to stop cars or even trucks is a scenario often depicted in movies and for LEOs or security personnel, it is not a completely hypothetical scenario even in real life. When I think back to Bond's good old PPK, the respective performance of pistols seems a little overrated in the movies, thus my question: What is the minimum caliber that has the potential to a.) penetrate a tire b.) stop an assailant through the windshield Let's assume that "potential" means a 50% penetration probability out of a advantageous angle, from 20 feet away... __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223 Last edited by simonrichter; May 21, 2015 at 12:49 PM.

May 21, 2015, 01:57 PM	#2
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,984	As a general rule, you don't shoot at cars. Any handgun round can be easily deflected by a windshield. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

May 21, 2015, 02:25 PM	#3
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	I wouldn't call it common, but LE do have to shoot through windshields at drivers who are driving towards them in an aggressive manner. I'm sure the bullets path is changed after going through the glass, but most will go through. It comes up from time to time. Taking out tires is something that has been attempted in the past with limited success. Engines, I have my doubts. Even if you get enough penetration to damage an engine it'll run for a while before it quits.

May 21, 2015, 02:53 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Shooting out tires falls into the same category as shooting a gun out of the bad guy's hand. Looks great in the movies and TV, and is such a nice, humane way to stop the BG without hurting anyone, but it doesn't happen. The dangers to innocent people are the same as shooting at the evil (presumably) person, and the likelihood of it working are a lot less. Jim

May 21, 2015, 07:48 PM	#7
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340

May 21, 2015, 08:03 PM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	A friend was a fine shot and was tasked by his department with making sure a vehicle did not leave the scene of a drug transaction. Never mind the handgun, he showed up with a .30-06 and some AP. Not needed in the event, but ready.

May 22, 2015, 07:57 AM	#11
98 220 swift Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2015 Location: Perryville MO Posts: 426	As being a auto tech for Ford and Chrysler for almost 20 years I can put some input into this. I have seen cars(trucks) run for a long time with out coolant or oil. A shot through the radiator will take several minutes if not longer depending on how hard the engine was being run. Same with oil. During the cash for clunkers deal we had to drain the oil and lock up the engines. We have a large field behind the dealership. We would pull them in and drain the oil then drive them out to the field and run the ish out of them. None locked up until we poured liquid glass in them. Taking out the alternator the vehicle will still run for several miles on the battery alone. On modern vehicles there is no distributor to take out. Best bet would be the pcm which is normally hidden and would be very difficult to hit. Or possibly hit the wiring harness in just the right place(almost imposible). Hitting the timing chain and breaking it would also work( again almost impossible). Maybe the best would be a shot in the trans pan once it drains out (which wouldn't take too long depending on hole size) the trans will stop puling as long as it is a automatic. I would not try to stop a vehicle buy shooting the engine. I am sure it has happed with lucky shots in the past though.

May 22, 2015, 09:42 AM	#13
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-n...atv-dirt-bikes This guy shot two tires out of a truck with a 12 guage. No mention of shot size. Can't tell, but it appears the vehicle may have been stopped when he did it to keep them from fleeing with his stuff.

May 22, 2015, 09:47 AM	#14
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	Let anyone think about doing it, DO NOT. The idea is unsound tacit ally and in almost all cases, legally.

May 22, 2015, 09:59 AM	#15
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	Knew a guy once who had a friend try and shoot out a car tire with a pistol. The bullet bounced off the tire and struck a bystander. He was arrested along with the bad guys stealing his car.

May 22, 2015, 10:51 AM	#17
peggysue Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2014 Posts: 1,835	MY S&W M500 with 700 gr. Hardcast http://www.ballisticsupply.net/defau...x?tabid=252105 Last edited by peggysue; May 23, 2015 at 04:45 AM.

May 22, 2015, 10:58 AM	#18
lee n. field Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2002 Location: The same state as Mordor. Posts: 5,569	oh, interesting. Tell us about that .500 S&W bullet. __________________ "As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. "

May 22, 2015, 11:49 AM	#19
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Having been in a class with extensive testing of all kinds of rounds on various car parts - 1. Most 9mm, 38, 40, 45 will go right through the glass on all sides. Hit it square and it may straight through. Thus in the circumstance that you were attacked by someone while you were in the car, you can do. Of course, if you can drive away - do so. You can shoot through the windshield - but you must think of circumstance. These were tests for extreme incidents. 2. The car sides won't stop anything except in some quixotic circumstances. For example, I saw a 12 gauge slug deflected down by the crash bar. Wouldn't count on it. If you crouch besides the car, it is fairly easy to shoot you under the car by skipping rounds. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

May 22, 2015, 12:23 PM	#20
DA/SA Fan Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2014 Location: Missouri Posts: 661	If someone you don't know just shoved your granddaughter in his car and took off I'm sure you have good reason to try for the tires or engine compartment instead of the driver. __________________ "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" CASTLE DOCTRINE STRONGLY ENFORCED "Happiness is a warm gun"

May 22, 2015, 12:30 PM	#21
slugchucker Member Join Date: March 30, 2014 Posts: 87	It may not stop a car,but..... This gun may not stop a car instantly, but, it tends to slow them down when spotted by the driver........ a radar gun!

May 22, 2015, 05:10 PM	#22
peggysue Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2014 Posts: 1,835	http://mattsbullets.com/ammunition/i...963cc482a36567

May 22, 2015, 10:52 PM	#23
EnoughGUN Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2009 Posts: 538	I remember years ago reading about some special rounds one of which was (I believe) a thv tungsten steel bullet in 357 mag. Article said it "whizzed" through the block of a 350 and was still lethal upon exit. I would think punching a hole through an engine especially if that crossed rods or pistons would do the trick. Honestly dont know how realistic their claim was. just occurred to me, better to just shoot the ecu, battery or any main harness section (shot gun probably best bet) on a modern car. They run at the limit of the 12 volt system these days and a huge disruption in voltage will likely bring it to a stop. __________________ GLOCK Austrian for Lemming Last edited by EnoughGUN; May 22, 2015 at 10:57 PM.

May 23, 2015, 05:22 AM	#24
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Just get an AK pistol. 7.62x39, even from a short AK barrel, ought to do the trick. Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

May 23, 2015, 06:21 AM	#25
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Get real fellows, the chance a situation would present it's self where an individual would be faced with a car killing decision are astronomical. Second, if one did shoot at a vehicle I can just see all the ramifications of such an act. Unless your concealed carry is a RPG I would suggest concealed carry is for defensive protection and not assaults on the Nation's motor vehicles.