Marlin 1895 Reloading Question

mako8551 · October 4, 2010, 08:48 PM

My once fired 45-70 brass has expanded out of "factory Spec" After full length resizing they are all about .010 or less too long.

My question is the resized brass chambers fine and being an Rimmed cartridge doesn't the chamber head space off of the rim? So wouldn't it be safe to get 1 more firing out of them before I have to break out the case trimmer?

Also what is average case life for 45-70 hotter hunting rounds?

Using 40gr IMR 4227 pushing a 300 gr Barnes X bullet out of a new production Marlin SBL.

chiefr · October 4, 2010, 09:29 PM

Mako,
This is quite common for just about all factory rifle ammo I have used after the first firings. When I purchased new brass, I have noticed variations as much as 10 thousandths of an inch. Anytime get new cases or once-fired, I trim as required to the "Trim to" lengths in the load manuals before I start the reloading process.
I have some 45-70 cases I have loaded about 10 times, however, my loads are rather mild. Your load at 40gr is close to max IMHO. Sounds like a great hunting load. I would watch for pressure. Hope this helps

TXGunNut · October 4, 2010, 09:54 PM

I'd go ahead and trim them, with hot loads you likely won't need to trim them again. Speaking of hot loads I think if I wanted that kind of velocity I'd go with IMR 4198. Your 4227 load concerns me.

mako8551 · October 7, 2010, 03:27 PM

I do get a very very small amount of primer flow from this loading. The max is listed as 41.5gr in the new Barnes reloading manual. Rated safe only for 1895 and Ruger #1.

Other than length consistency if they Chamber just fine and headspace off the case rim then technically the cases are not too long for my chamber and do not need to be trimmed yet. Or am I missing something?

TX Nimrod · October 7, 2010, 05:32 PM

For best accuracy they need to be trimmed to the same length. Otherwise when crimped they will have different bullet pulls and that can effect accuracy, and to some extent powder burning.

Your load is pretty hot for an M1895. There is some disagreement over the maximum pressure the Marlin can take, the difference from different loading manuals is 12,000 cup! Clearly Barnes is on the high side. Lyman 48 shows 38.0 grains as max behind a 300 JHP, and for the Ruger No.1, not the Marlin.

I agree that IMR4198 is far more appropriate for high velocity loads in the Marlin. It gives better accuracy at higher velocities and lower pressures to boot.

.

the foot · October 7, 2010, 05:42 PM

For this old reloader, even a very small amount of primer flow is a red flag. I would pursue trying another powder.

**44 AMP** · October 7, 2010, 06:01 PM

The powder is fine, but a few tenth gr too much for the rifle, if you get primer flow. Back off a bit.

New brass generally stretches the most on first firing. The hotter the load, the more pronounced it can be.

True, it does headspace on the rim, BUT consider how long the chamber is. The reason we trim brass, and don't want overlength brass is because of the chamber length. IT depends a lot in the idiviual tolerances, of course, but the worst case situation is that while an over long case will often chamber with no trouble, be being too long, the case extends beyond the front of the chamber.

If it extends out too far, it is in the part of the bore that does not have clearance for the brass to expand and release the bullet. The bullet still comes out, but because the case cannot expand to release it, pressures go up. Sometimes WAY UP!!!! And when dealing with a hot load to start with, you can go from hot to dangerously unsafe instantly upon firing.

Trim the brass, and reload it with a little less powder.

mako8551 · October 7, 2010, 08:11 PM

Thanks 44. That is exactly what I as looking for. I will trim and the overwhelming recommendation for IMR 4198 I will give that a try as well.

TEXASMAC · October 7, 2010, 09:34 PM

Guys,

Just thought I'd mention that I've shot 405gr hard cast loads in a modern Marlin 1895 with up to 56grs of IMR4895 at velocities approaching 1900fps. The rifle handled it fine but my shoulder was a different story. There were no high-pressure signs.

Wayne

TEXASMAC · October 7, 2010, 09:45 PM

mako8551,

I agree with the comments from others that all you brass should be trimmed to the same length to match each round for accuracy purposes. With that said, determining the correct case length for your rifle is a different story. Ideally you need to make a chamber cast or impact impression to determine the ideal length. Case length is less critical with smokeless and jacketed bullets than with black powder and cast bullets, but length does have an impact on accuracy even with smokeless ammo. If you are interested in making a chamber cast or impact impression of your chamber see my article at the following link.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Discussion_...mpression.html

Wayne

300magman · October 7, 2010, 09:51 PM

TEXASMAC

I didn't have your exact bullet in my database but using Quickload and standard COL with other 400-405 gr bullets I'm showing that data as over 108% case capacity (or more) and 45,000-47,000 psi of pressure. Though I'm showing potential velocities to be 1960-1990fps

TEXASMAC · October 7, 2010, 10:30 PM

Yes, the powder was compressed and the actual velocity was 1892fps with 56grs of IMR4895. The Marlin was a modern 1895LTD-IV. I just double-checked my loading notes. The bullet was a commercial 405gr hard cast flat point purchased from Lane Bullets. The cases were trimmed to 2.092" and the COL was 2.55". I normally check for high pressure signs and include any comments in my notes. No notes on high pressure with these loads.

By the way, powder compression was required for loads with 52grs or more .

At 50grs of 4895 no compression was required and velocities dropped down to 1686fps.

Wayne

October 4, 2010, 09:54 PM	#3
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	I'd go ahead and trim them, with hot loads you likely won't need to trim them again. Speaking of hot loads I think if I wanted that kind of velocity I'd go with IMR 4198. Your 4227 load concerns me. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

October 7, 2010, 06:01 PM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	The powder is fine, but a few tenth gr too much for the rifle, if you get primer flow. Back off a bit. New brass generally stretches the most on first firing. The hotter the load, the more pronounced it can be. True, it does headspace on the rim, BUT consider how long the chamber is. The reason we trim brass, and don't want overlength brass is because of the chamber length. IT depends a lot in the idiviual tolerances, of course, but the worst case situation is that while an over long case will often chamber with no trouble, be being too long, the case extends beyond the front of the chamber. If it extends out too far, it is in the part of the bore that does not have clearance for the brass to expand and release the bullet. The bullet still comes out, but because the case cannot expand to release it, pressures go up. Sometimes WAY UP!!!! And when dealing with a hot load to start with, you can go from hot to dangerously unsafe instantly upon firing. Trim the brass, and reload it with a little less powder. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 4, 2010, 08:48 PM	#1
mako8551 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2005 Location: Central California Posts: 174	Marlin 1895 Reloading Question My once fired 45-70 brass has expanded out of "factory Spec" After full length resizing they are all about .010 or less too long. My question is the resized brass chambers fine and being an Rimmed cartridge doesn't the chamber head space off of the rim? So wouldn't it be safe to get 1 more firing out of them before I have to break out the case trimmer? Also what is average case life for 45-70 hotter hunting rounds? Using 40gr IMR 4227 pushing a 300 gr Barnes X bullet out of a new production Marlin SBL.

October 4, 2010, 09:29 PM	#2
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	Mako, This is quite common for just about all factory rifle ammo I have used after the first firings. When I purchased new brass, I have noticed variations as much as 10 thousandths of an inch. Anytime get new cases or once-fired, I trim as required to the "Trim to" lengths in the load manuals before I start the reloading process. I have some 45-70 cases I have loaded about 10 times, however, my loads are rather mild. Your load at 40gr is close to max IMHO. Sounds like a great hunting load. I would watch for pressure. Hope this helps

October 7, 2010, 03:27 PM	#4
mako8551 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2005 Location: Central California Posts: 174	I do get a very very small amount of primer flow from this loading. The max is listed as 41.5gr in the new Barnes reloading manual. Rated safe only for 1895 and Ruger #1. Other than length consistency if they Chamber just fine and headspace off the case rim then technically the cases are not too long for my chamber and do not need to be trimmed yet. Or am I missing something?

October 7, 2010, 05:32 PM	#5
TX Nimrod Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2009 Location: Zona Posts: 423	For best accuracy they need to be trimmed to the same length. Otherwise when crimped they will have different bullet pulls and that can effect accuracy, and to some extent powder burning. Your load is pretty hot for an M1895. There is some disagreement over the maximum pressure the Marlin can take, the difference from different loading manuals is 12,000 cup! Clearly Barnes is on the high side. Lyman 48 shows 38.0 grains as max behind a 300 JHP, and for the Ruger No.1, not the Marlin. I agree that IMR4198 is far more appropriate for high velocity loads in the Marlin. It gives better accuracy at higher velocities and lower pressures to boot. .

October 7, 2010, 05:42 PM	#6
the foot Member Join Date: October 31, 2008 Posts: 29	For this old reloader, even a very small amount of primer flow is a red flag. I would pursue trying another powder.

October 7, 2010, 08:11 PM	#8
mako8551 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2005 Location: Central California Posts: 174	Thanks 44. That is exactly what I as looking for. I will trim and the overwhelming recommendation for IMR 4198 I will give that a try as well.

October 7, 2010, 09:34 PM	#9
TEXASMAC Junior Member Join Date: October 20, 2005 Posts: 7	Guys, Just thought I'd mention that I've shot 405gr hard cast loads in a modern Marlin 1895 with up to 56grs of IMR4895 at velocities approaching 1900fps. The rifle handled it fine but my shoulder was a different story. There were no high-pressure signs. Wayne

October 7, 2010, 09:45 PM	#10
TEXASMAC Junior Member Join Date: October 20, 2005 Posts: 7	mako8551, I agree with the comments from others that all you brass should be trimmed to the same length to match each round for accuracy purposes. With that said, determining the correct case length for your rifle is a different story. Ideally you need to make a chamber cast or impact impression to determine the ideal length. Case length is less critical with smokeless and jacketed bullets than with black powder and cast bullets, but length does have an impact on accuracy even with smokeless ammo. If you are interested in making a chamber cast or impact impression of your chamber see my article at the following link. http://www.texas-mac.com/Discussion_...mpression.html Wayne

October 7, 2010, 09:51 PM	#11
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	TEXASMAC I didn't have your exact bullet in my database but using Quickload and standard COL with other 400-405 gr bullets I'm showing that data as over 108% case capacity (or more) and 45,000-47,000 psi of pressure. Though I'm showing potential velocities to be 1960-1990fps

October 7, 2010, 10:30 PM	#12
TEXASMAC Junior Member Join Date: October 20, 2005 Posts: 7	Yes, the powder was compressed and the actual velocity was 1892fps with 56grs of IMR4895. The Marlin was a modern 1895LTD-IV. I just double-checked my loading notes. The bullet was a commercial 405gr hard cast flat point purchased from Lane Bullets. The cases were trimmed to 2.092" and the COL was 2.55". I normally check for high pressure signs and include any comments in my notes. No notes on high pressure with these loads. By the way, powder compression was required for loads with 52grs or more . At 50grs of 4895 no compression was required and velocities dropped down to 1686fps. Wayne