The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 6, 2011, 06:07 AM   #1
omkhan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
A Real Incident, What Would You Do?

I originally posted the following here http://www.pakguns.com/showthread.ph...t-Would-You-Do

Now would just like to share it with you guys and want to know how would you react in such a scenario.





Hi All,

I am posting a real scenario below which recently happened to a relative of mine. However, before I tell you guys what he did, I would like to ask you guys to put yourself in the guy's shoes and let us know what would you have done.

You are driving your car with your dad on front seat and wife (young & beautiful) on back seat in a not so populated/ crowded roads of Gaddap Town(Insert any suburb / shady/ not so populated area that you know of). Your trusted piece is in the car with chamber loaded and in very easy/ quick access such that you can get it into action under the blink of an eye if needed. The road you are driving on is bumpy and your speed is hardly 30-35 KPH. There are bushes on both sides of the road. Considering the area and all the news about kidnapping/ abduction and other crimes going on in this locality you are in condition yellow.

Suddenly out of no where 4 guys with 2 bikes came from the wrong side of the road and you couldn't see them before hand because of the thick bushes. They slowed down in front of your car, you honk them to get the way but they stopped the bikes almost 14 ft from your car and naturally you hit the brakes to stop as well. Now both the pillion riders turn their heads towards you and that is the point your alarm goes on. You see both of them getting off the bikes very slowly and clearing their shirts and there you see the grip of a pistol in one of the guy's pants.

Kindly respond with what do u think/ believe you would do at this point of time & lets not get into the debate like why go there if its such a bad area etc because you can not always avoid bad parts of the city no matter what. Looking forward to read/ know your views, thanks.
omkhan is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 06:21 AM   #2
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Hard to say without having been their but here’s one possibility.

I would have backed the car up if possible (I wasnt their so I dont know if there was other traffic to be concerned with) and if they attempted to follow without presenting some law enforcement ID then it may have become time to engage anyone whos hand went for a weapon.

A second possibility depending on the exact terrain would be to drive into the bushes and go around as quickly as possible, but again without knowing how high or thick the brush its only a guess heck this might not have been a possibility but its at least worth consideration.

Third as the first one draws a weapon, run them over.

My repeated concern is are these guy some sort of law enforcement or people concerned that they may be kidnapped or attacked. I think you could take my first or second action without having to engage until someone is presenting a weapon. My third possibility leaves no room for error and the consequences are going to be tramatic even if they are BGs.
__________________
Molon Labe

Last edited by BGutzman; July 6, 2011 at 07:47 AM.
BGutzman is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 06:22 AM   #3
Nitesites
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Posts: 600
There was one thing that immediately came to mind as soon as I finished reading this. That was "drive around". Hard and fast with necessary precaution. Conditions were present that would raise suspicions, but at the same time nothing warranted any aggressive action on my part.
Nitesites is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 06:32 AM   #4
kozak6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 3,113
Crank on the steering wheel and go around them.
kozak6 is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 06:46 AM   #5
omkhan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
Quote:
There was one thing that immediately came to mind as soon as I finished reading this. That was "drive around". Hard and fast with necessary precaution. Conditions were present that would raise suspicions, but at the same time nothing warranted any aggressive action on my part.
Making you stop in the middle of the road and reaching for their guns does not warrant an aggressive action?

@BGutzman, They were not LOEs. We have an executive order here according to which police cannot search/ stop/ held any 1 in plain clothes.

Turning around was not possible as you got thick bushes both side. Road was not that wide may be hardly 40 ft. No incoming traffic. Day time around 2:30 PM
omkhan is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 06:53 AM   #6
Nitesites
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Posts: 600
That isn't what you posted originally. Tell me where you wrote they had weapons in hand and I'll apologize.
Nitesites is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 07:01 AM   #7
omkhan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
Quote:
You see both of them getting off the bikes very slowly and clearing their shirts and there you see the grip of a pistol in one of the guy's pants.
They were clearing their shirts/ kameez which is usually knee length, for what you think?
omkhan is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 07:03 AM   #8
Nitesites
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Posts: 600
I see you are posting from Pakistan. Yours is a different world than mine. Please continue...
Nitesites is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 07:16 AM   #9
ClayInTx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,066
Stopping in front of me to block my way is an aggressive action and it doesn’t matter if they display a gun or if they display a toothbrush. They’re up to no good.

Drive around, back up, or if not possible for either then pull and pump. Their action is such that one can legitimately claim fear for their life.

Don’t try to drive over because motorcycles have pointy parts which can puncture tires.
ClayInTx is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 07:37 AM   #10
dcody40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 124
My reaction would be

keep on going, even in the US, this has happened out in the wild, and also at night in the fog, someone tries to stop me, Sorry dude, I just punch it and get out of the area fast, and motorcycles don't present as much of a problem as you think, steer around them somewhat and just get the pedel to the metal. In this situation, being that the LEO's are a response type factor, they come after the fact, assuming you could call them, your in serious trouble if you stay in one place and don't do what you should do, and your handgun could be a factor depending on the approach of the BG's, they have guns, they don't have to follow any rules, and they don't care one bit about your rights, so your it. Do what you have to do to survive. And true BG's are not going to call the police if you have crunched some motorcycles on the wrong side of the road. Now if you stay put and try the old threaten trick, then your also in a bad position, as you are saying you don't have what it takes to put up a fight, plus your the only one armed, your in the driver seat, and you have your family with you. You could loose bad here if one of the BG's starts shooting, so get away fast, don't even think about the possible BG's well being. LEO'S have a saying " Do what you have to Do ".. so do it. And live.

Oh and I have personal experience with this situation in the PI and Mexico. And I was not allowed to be armed in those two countries. And was not a Leo at the time. So all I had was the gas pedel.

Duane, ret USN/Leo
dcody40 is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 07:58 AM   #11
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Quote:
Making you stop in the middle of the road and reaching for their guns does not warrant an aggressive action?

@BGutzman, They were not LOEs. We have an executive order here according to which police cannot search/ stop/ held any 1 in plain clothes.

Turning around was not possible as you got thick bushes both side. Road was not that wide may be hardly 40 ft. No incoming traffic. Day time around 2:30 PM
You have details about your laws most members would not be aware of. Further they (the riders) could have assumed you were the threat and were trying to defend themselves. Hard to ride a bike and shoot.

You seem kind of aggressive with the members here which is uncalled for, you asked a question and we are left to imagine a situation we were not present for that leaves a lot of information we don’t have.

Our laws are different and un-uniformed police could well be preforming some legal duty if this was to happen here.

But given your agitation Im guessing you went with run them over. I have had my heavy motorcycle struck by a car and know just how easiy it is for a car to clear a motorcycle out of the way.
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 08:05 AM   #12
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
I guess the first thing I do is check my GPS to figure out how I got into a situation where guys are riding pillion wearing qameez and shalwars.



But if this was the U.S....

What was the honking meant to accomplish?

It was not meant to warn of impending danger - it was basically a way of expressing anger.

Moral of this story is control your temper while driving and don't be a dick.

Want to know what I would have done? I wouldn't have laid on the horn to begin with.. how about that for a scenario?
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 08:05 AM   #13
omkhan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
@BGutzman,
I agree that things are different here in my part of world. We have a corrupt police that you CAN NOT rely upon. Response time can be from 30 minutes to infinity.

As for being aggressive, that's what not I meant. I apologize if I offended any 1 but I was surprised to see that this action of deliberately stopping you and reaching for their pistols is not deemed a threat?
omkhan is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 08:15 AM   #14
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,840
I don't think the issue is that folks are not seeing it as a threat, the issue is that not every threat, or possible threat, immediately requires deadly force by firearm. Folks are exploring other options, which is perfectly reasonable, considering the fact that they are not right by the window, the other persons are inside a operational vehicle and still have the option of movement. Personally, I would have gotten my weapon in my hand or near it and tried to get away by going backwards rapidly. If they actually had guns in hand I think I would run them down and keep going to a safer area.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 08:21 AM   #15
omkhan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
jhenry,
this is why I posted it here to know various responses. Given the same threat and same variable, every 1 will behave differently. I will disclose what he actually did shortly which may or may not be correct/ appropriate but I can tell you that it worked for him luckily and he went home without a bruise to him or his family.
omkhan is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 08:30 AM   #16
Nitesites
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Posts: 600
Omkhan,

Feel at ease Sir; you have not offended me. I am sure we all would like to hear the events.
Nitesites is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 08:38 AM   #17
catnphx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2011
Location: North Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 168
If I believe we are in danger then my car becomes my 1st weapon. I hit the gas pedal and hit the back of the bikes as hard as possible without running over the bikes. If I hit the guys that got off the bikes fantastic (mission accomplished) but I also want to disable the bikes and the drivers.

Another thing to think about - considering I don't know how things operate in that country - is that flashing a weapon may be effective to them. I'm not sure how many guns are there and if these guys would rather take helpless unarmed victims. Who knows, that might send them on their merry way without having to run them over and ram their bikes.

One thing is for sure, I'm not wanting a shoot-out with them. I hope your relative lives long and prospers (unless he's the new head of Al Qaeda ).
__________________
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 FS (w/ mounted TLR-1)
Smith & Wesson M&P 9c (w/ Crossbreed Supertuck IWB)
Smith & Wesson .357 640-1 (w/ Galco KingTuk IWB)
Kahr CW9 (w/ Kholster Crescent IWB)
catnphx is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 09:08 AM   #18
Nitesites
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Posts: 600
Just to explain myself a bit more...living in differing worlds, our reaction to an action can be as night and day. Where you may see the precursur to a physical conflict unfold, such as clearing an overgarment to reach for a firearm in your environment, it would be auspicious for me to pause a brief moment and make sure that what is being reached for isn't "bubblegum" in my environment.*

* Edit : Pause or "Get the heck out of Dodge".

If I am forced to defend myself or others here, I must be able to demonstrate to the authorities a clear and present danger. I can certainly see where you are being proactive in defense of your life and loved ones regarding your environment.

And if I have offended you, please accept my apologies.

Last edited by Nitesites; July 6, 2011 at 09:27 AM.
Nitesites is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 09:28 AM   #19
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
driving around sounds nice

but let's be reasonable, that might end up the wrong answer and you and/or your family might end up shot or even killed. my alarm would've gone up as soon as they stopped in the street but that is not saying their ploy would'nt have worked. this is one of those situations where the assailants have put some good thought in ahead of time and the victim's reaction time must be very quick.

I think if one never stops and speeds quickly they should be ok. if one stops or slows down and then tries to flee your reaction time has already suffered a bit or possibly a great deal. again I am not saying you had much time - you could've been playing with the radio and wahlah, your stopped. it can be that quick. if you speed backwards or around the perpsafter stopping and they are making their move: two good possibilities are they will be impulsive and upset and already engaged so your in very grave danger.


the other, better possibility is that they only cared about getting you to fall in line with their plan. therefore, they are composed enough to cut their losses and not do anything more stupid. I for one do not want to rely on anyone. I do feel it was a definate threat when these individuals stopped in front of my vehicle's path and showed their pieces. I would like to hope that I would never have stopped. My odds would be better, and I think there is a good chance in most situations I wouldn't have stopped(in some form or another).

It will be nice to find out what happened and if the other individuals were indeed dangerous or not? In situations like this you can do 'the right thing' and lose or die. Possibly, depending on the situation - if we were omniscient beings - we could know are only chance was to draw, fire thru our windshield, and keep going. It we be nice to know the end result of things like "Groundhog Day", so we could do the right thing every time. Life is a gamble. To me, this incident is a definate threat even if it turns out harmless.

I would have never slowed down and would have also sped up. If by some unlucky chance I was surprised or distracted plus ended up stopping or hopefully just slowing down, I would've been nervous plus tried to remedy while having by SD firearm in my hand(OP said it was extremely quick acces). I would have done this stuff as quick as possible. My goal would've been to not look the lion in the eyes...if they were even lions...

EDIT: PS - this was overseas, but originally upon reading I pictured some adolescents or young adults in FL somewhere.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

Last edited by youngunz4life; July 6, 2011 at 09:36 AM. Reason: very last line labeled: EDIT
youngunz4life is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 09:58 AM   #20
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Someone flashing a weapon is certainly an agressive move, pulling the weapon more so. Its a difficult situation because you have other people in the car with you, I still see running at them as the only solution for your region as a shootout is likely to get your loved ones injured and 4 guns against one isnt good odds.

The whole situation sounds bad but as described here I would make the bikes into speed bumps.
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 10:00 AM   #21
serf 'rett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2009
Location: Stuttgart, AR
Posts: 1,569
Interesting!

Vacant the area as soon as possible.

Going around them may not be a good idea as they might get in front of car. If they haven't presented a weapon and you run over them, then you are in trouble with the law (and their family will want your head too!) I suspect the presence of a weapon doesn’t automatically make them guilty of anything in your country; therefore, you likely can’t just run over them for “suspicious behavior.”

Going past them also puts everyone in the vehicle in increased danger. As the situation has been presented, it appears the bike riders were a threat; however, if there is a possibility they weren't, then any attempts to run over them or their bikes will be viewed by them as a hostile action and will invoke a hostile response.

In my opinion, the only way the “pass them” option could be implemented is if it was done quickly and decisively, before they could clear the bikes.

If this was a setup for robbery/kidnapping, there should have been a “bad guy” in the rear, but since the OP doesn’t mention this, I’m wondering if rapid reverse and turnaround was possible (I know the OP states turnaround was not possible at that point, but how far back would it be possible? Next driveway? Next block?). A rapid reverse opens distance and puts the “ball in their court” as we would say. If they follow – the situation has now become much clearer – at this point we’re “weapons free” as we continue to vacate the area. Primary weapon – vehicle, secondary weapon – small arms
__________________
A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.

Last edited by serf 'rett; July 6, 2011 at 10:12 AM.
serf 'rett is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 10:40 AM   #22
Wag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2010
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by catnphx
If I believe we are in danger then my car becomes my 1st weapon. I hit the gas pedal and hit the back of the bikes as hard as possible without running over the bikes. If I hit the guys that got off the bikes fantastic (mission accomplished) but I also want to disable the bikes and the drivers.
Best answer so far.

--Wag--
__________________
"Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.
Wag is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 11:36 AM   #23
omkhan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
@Nitesites,
buddy no offense taken. I should have structured my sentence in a better way. Thanks for the understanding.

Now coming to the OP, as I mentioned that that particular area is infested with criminals these days. People had bought properties i.e. real state there and my relative was one of them and at that time he was going to visit it.

Most areas of karachi specially Gaddap town, Gulzar-e-Hijri, Taiser Town, etc are now hubs for kidnappers & other criminals. Lots of businesses of Farm House, Entertainments, Property have gone down the drain because of such criminal activities. Police is not doing anything there as usual. According to our CPLC (Citizens Police Liaison Committee), 54 cases of kidnapping were reported in just last 2.5 months in Karachi (mostly in the same areas) out of which 37 persons were recovered after paying ransom. Fate of the rest is unknown till this point of time as their families have not been contacted for ransom etc yet. The worst part is that there are now many small groups that do not deal for ransom directly rather they SELL the kidnapped person to other big criminals / terrorists such as Pakistani Talibans and thus the poor victims often end up in Hub, Waziristan or Interior Sindh.
omkhan is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 11:45 AM   #24
Ringolevio
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Location: Where the Kaw meets the Mighty Mo
Posts: 241
Hindsight

First of all, thanks for this thought exercise, and I'm eagerly awaiting hearing how the situation was actually dealt with.

And I apologize for those who seem to want to nitpick your account.

You did not identify your personal arm. In that part of the world, and with abductions and other such crimes a real possibility, I hope you had more than a handgun. It's said that a handgun is what you carry when you're not expecting trouble; when you have good reason to expect trouble, you carry a rifle. And I thought that in rural Pakistan everybody and his cousin has an AK-47 or a locally-made copy.
Ringolevio is offline  
Old July 6, 2011, 11:52 AM   #25
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
In an area such as you describe, with two guys on bikes obviously performing an intercept maneuver (and in the Afghanistan/Pakistan region, assassinations from motorcycle are very common), when they pulled in front and tapped the brakes, they'd have been wearing the front end of my car - for an instant, anyway.

Why draw, or engage in a potential shootout, when one can simply sledge-hammer them off their bikes?

And if that sounds ruthless, then odds are the folks who think so haven't had to do their studies on threat recognition in CENTCOM.
MLeake is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10357 seconds with 8 queries