Annealing methods

[Benchguy]

Hey gang, I’ve got another question for you. I don’t have a brass annealer and I’m wondering if there’s a good method that anyone would say is the cheaper version or route to a good job of annealing, without ruining brass. I’ve seen videos of people using a drill to turn brass while exposing it to the torch.

Thank you!

[mehavey]

drill to turn brass while exposing it to the torch.

If you use Tempilaq, that's as good a introductory method as any...

[Benchguy]

Sweet! Sounds like there’s some footage of using it so I’ll watch a few to see how they do it. Reasonably priced too!

Thank you!

[RC20]

It would be good for you to do a search as there are a number of threads on that subject.

I will summarize Templiaqa, its misleading. There is something in it that does not work correctly for a thing brass case. Yes I did some extensive comparison.

The Torch method can work but timing and testing the time in the flame is hard. I recently saw Horanady mass production using that method. I can see it for speed of mfg, something like 6 in the flame on a conveyor like chain system.

The most curate method I relive to be induction (for the individual) but lots of arguments about that. I use that and did extensive heat testing.

Keep in mind, actually ruining a case is not easy and the worst hazard is getting it so hot that it reaches the head. So heating it them in an oven is a NO.

Under annealing does not harm and just ovewr anneal of the case shoulder and mouth makes it permanently soft but does not harm other than consistent grip. I did some that way and the accuracy was still not bad.

Mostly I have shifted to high quality brass (read that as Lapua and Peterson so far and testing Alpha). Other mfgs are all over the map though the old Remington was good (have not seen current).

Mostly on Lapua I have had loose primer pockets and no cracks, Peterson seems to be good but have not had it nearly as long as Lapua. Alpha is new, its easier to keep track of different batches using a different mfg.

[math teacher]

You might try researching the candle method. It is cheapest, simple, but slowest if you have a large quantity to anneal.

[mehavey]

There is something in it that does not work correctly for a thing brass case....

Did you perchance mean "thin" brass ... ?
If so, I've never found thin brass (read 44-40) to ever need annealing.

On the other hand, 750 Tempilaq inside large case necks like 45-70, and 450 just below the shoulder
on smaller caliber bottlenecks does provide an objective reference point when deciding/settling on timing
(FWIW: I've settled on "melt + 3-count").

Automated Induction is obviously the Ultimate Cat's Meow (UCM), but a bit complex/expensive just starting out,
a bit of overkill for small numbers...and still needs that reference point established for time/temp.

YMMV of course, but keep it simple and learn by doing at first.

[akinswi]

Originally Posted by math teacher

You might try researching the candle method. It is cheapest, simple, but slowest if you have a large quantity to anneal.

I tried the candle method and its beyond tedious.

[oldmanFCSA]

Use a torch with a blue flame on the shoulder upwards to neck.
Do so in a very dark room but light enough to se what you are doing.
When the neck area out-gasses an orange cloud, proper annealing has been completed.

I built a rotary device using a cake-pan to hold and rotate a 50BMG case.
It takes about 13 seconds depending on size of your torch tip.
I test the rotation speed on scrap brass, then fine-tune as the lot runs.

Recently, a friend bought an AMP (Annealing Made Perfect) machine and we are testing/using it extensively to acquire consistency in our annealing processing.

Y.M.M.V.

[Unclenick]

As the candle method proves, you don't really need to completely anneal brass to prevent neck splitting. Annealing has three stages: recovery, recrystallization, and grain growth. Recovery is all you need to relieve stress at the atomic displacement level and increase elongation at break and get malleability back, and annealing still further lowers tensile strength. It takes a 750 degree soldering iron with inside neck-fitting tip about 20 seconds to do a 30 caliber bottleneck case that has been reloaded half a dozen times. Note that the harder the brass is, the faster recovery occurs. A hot flame can get there very quickly. With gas flame annealing, I use normal daylight and just look for the brass color to start to change and stop. Any more doesn't seem to get me anything. It may be you need more to prevent season cracking when you store loaded rounds near a source of ammonia gas (stay away from kitty litter boxes or other sources of urine and fertilizers, especially in humid weather), but I haven't done that by planned experiment, so I don't really know.

Also note that the modulus of elasticity doesn't change with brass hardness, so the firmness of the neck's grip on the bullet won't change with degree of annealing unless you are sizing for interference fit that is below springback for some of your cases and exceeds it for others.

[labnoti]

It's all insane alchemy. Just read the white papers over at annealing made perfect (AMP) -- just buying one of their machines is considered over-the-top by most hand-loaders, but they go on to do extensive hardness testing, microscopic inspection, and they use a transducer-equipped seating press (which they sell) to measure the consistency of neck tension/friction.

Obviously, they are going beyond just trying to extend brass life by preventing split necks (something I've never had happen with anything but range scrounge which I stopped using 5 years ago.) They are annealing to try to attain consistent neck tension -- or something like that, because there are arguments about whether it is spring tension of the brass, hardness, friction, and even whether wet tumbling and lubes affect the result and how.

Understandably, to get consistency, you want the brass cases to hold the bullet consistently from case to case so that a consistent amount of force is used to push it out. That's where the seating force meters come in. At first, there were dial meters like those from 21st Century. Now there are electronic transducers with computer graphs that show the force plotted across the bullet seating depth. The idea is that you would use cartridges that had similar plots to shoot a group.

Here's the thing: when you look at the actual results on target, it could all be snake-oil. I have not seen an obvious and distinct advantage from any annealing. I'm pretty sure bench-rest, PRS, F-class shooters are going to keep doing their voodoo, and I'm not about to prove them wrong by out-shooting them, but in their own tests with controls, there's no evidence it works.

FWIW, I have practiced annealing with a torch. If the torch is aimed correctly, I can hold the base of a 357 Magnum or PPC-sized cartridge in my bare hands and heat it while spinning it until the neck just begins to glow dull red in low light and drop it into a metal bowl before my fingers burn. That assures I'm not overheating and softening the head. Typically, I'll do this and measure the time in seconds. Then I will proceed to do all the cases of the same type based on the time estimate. For a single propane blow torch (Bernz-O-Matic), it's usually somewhere between 7 and 12 seconds. With that said, I would guess I am achieving stress relief, but I have not ever had one of my cases (annealed (or whatever you want to call it) or not) split. I'm not convinced it affects the end result whatsoever. It's relaxing though.

[mikejonestkd]

I anneal with a bernz-o-matic torch, a cordless drill and an appropriately sized socket. I hold the flame on an angle pointed towards the case mouth, and apply heat on the edge of the case shoulder as i rotate the case with the drill. 6-7 seconds is enough to get a color change.

[Benchguy]

I have read a few annealing posts and it really seems a personal thing to rather or not annealing is done. I wouldn’t say my brass is range brass but it is fired from my gun and varies in manufacture. If it hits anything it’s the catch basket I made or the grass around my bench and doesn’t get the concrete damage I read about.

I’m probably going to build something to hold and spin the brass when I finally get to the process.

I know the neck tension plays a big roll in consistent bullet release and it is something I’m trying to control. I have Hornady dies and Santa brought me a new press. I have it set up but only seated 10 rounds so far. Still need to set up the resizing die. It has the decapping with expander intact, which may change soon to separate stages. Still much to learn and practice!

[akinswi]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

As the candle method proves, you don't really need to completely anneal brass to prevent neck splitting. Annealing has three stages: recovery, recrystallization, and grain growth. Recovery is all you need to relieve stress at the atomic displacement level and increase elongation at break and get malleability back, and annealing still further lowers tensile strength. It takes a 750 degree soldering iron with inside neck-fitting tip about 20 seconds to do a 30 caliber bottleneck case that has been reloaded half a dozen times. Note that the harder the brass is, the faster recovery occurs. A hot flame can get there very quickly. With gas flame annealing, I use normal daylight and just look for the brass color to start to change and stop. Any more doesn't seem to get me anything. It may be you need more to prevent season cracking when you store loaded rounds near a source of ammonia gas (stay away from kitty litter boxes or other sources of urine and fertilizers, especially in humid weather), but I haven't done that by planned experiment, so I don't really know.

Also note that the modulus of elasticity doesn't change with brass hardness, so the firmness of the neck's grip on the bullet won't change with degree of annealing unless you are sizing for interference fit that is below springback for some of your cases and exceeds it for others.

Unclenick, I believe the idea behind the candle method was that it was almost impossible to over anneal the brass .

[Bob Willman]

It has been a while, but when I started reloading in the 1960s the standard method was to stand the cases in a shallow tray of water so that the head was submerged. In a darkened room heat the top of each case to a very dull red with a torch and tip it over in the pan. For today's high volume reloader, I realize this method has serious throughput issues but it is easy, simple, cheap and safe.

NRA Benefactor

[Benchguy]

Originally Posted by Bob Willman

It has been a while, but when I started reloading in the 1960s the standard method was to stand the cases in a shallow tray of water so that the head was submerged. In a darkened room heat the top of each case to a very dull red with a torch and tip it over in the pan. For today's high volume reloader, I realize this method has serious throughput issues but it is easy, simple, cheap and safe.

NRA Benefactor

Great idea!

[Unclenick]

As Akinswi says, the candle method limits the temperature to avoid overheating. So does the molten lead method.

(1) Lead Pot Method: heat lead to 725°-750°F; dip neck into powdered graphite and then holding body of case in fingertips into molten lead: when case body becomes too hot to hold slap case into wet towel; or

(2) Candle-flame method: Hold case body in fingertips, place case neck in flame and twirl case back & forth until case body is too hot to hold, then slap case into wet towel; wipe soot off neck & shoulder with dry paper towel or 0000 steel wool.

Fred Barker (metallurgist), Precision Shooting Magazine (RIP), July 1996, pp. 90-92

I also have two annealing plates, one with 30 cal and one with 224 cal pins that you heat to the same range as the lead above. Then you just start dropping cases mouth-down over the pins at a rate that finishes a row in about 20 seconds, at which point you go back to the front of the line and start pulling them off in FIFO order at the same rate so they all get 20 seconds. It is quicker than the one-at-a-time method and seems to stop splits, but the pin contact with the necks isn't perfectly uniform.

The wet towel used by Barker is really for handling convenience and not to prevent heat from softening the head. I installed a thermocouple in a 30-06 primer pocket along with a dowel to form a handle and then used Denton Bramwell's approach of turning the neck over a kitchen stove gas flame while I watched how hot the pocket got. After about three minutes it became apparent air convection was removing heat from the sides of the case as fast as it was being supplied by the flame, and the head was never going to get close to strain relief temperatures. IIRC, it got to or a little over the water boiling point and just stopped warming further. So setting heads in a tray of water is unnecessary. Certainly, tipping the cases over into the water to terminate heat exposure is unnecessary. Brass is not steel and doesn't respond to quenching. Just ceasing further heat source exposure is all you need to do to stop additional softening at normal annealing temperatures.

Heating in a dark environment until you just see a glow is likely passing 1000°F. Textbooks will tell you 978°C to start to see glow in a darkened area, but that's heating electrically. A flame produces some light, so you will probably be closer to 1050°F when you see it. This is hot enough to get recrystallization started and, if held long enough, to see grain growth as well, which is going beyond recovery. For cartridge brass, I would define over-annealing as getting it softer than necessary to strain-relieve it, and by going beyond recovery, dull glow temperature can do that if it isn't timed correctly, so I don't see doing that as a fool-proof method unless you have a mechanism that can fix the exposure time. I would have to look up the formula, but I am going to guess you need less than three seconds of exposure at that temperature to complete recovery.

[MarkCO]

I worked up using some of the old fashioned methods. I got one of these several years ago.

https://annealeez.com/product/annealeez/

It's simple, easy, relatively fast.

I don't use it for all calibers, but it is a tool that I can use to extend the "quality" brass life of several of my rifle calibers.

If I did not shoot long range precision, I might not even use it. But volume and case prices of the non-military brass make it a good investment for me.

For precision, it's also about maintaining consistent neck tension. For hunting and short range stuff, it does not matter much. But anyone who says annealing properly has no benefit just does not understand precision loading methodology. I absolutely see SDs creep up with non-annealed brass and consistently get SDs under 5 when I anneal. That matters out past 500 yards.

[Benchguy]

Great information, Gents! Appreciate your time in replying! Going to be a while before I can call myself a proficient reloader. As I age, my abilities to be the agile person I once was get more apparent, unfortunately. The skill of reloading is something that can be enjoyed for some time to come. Still a couple years away from retirement but equipping myself with these tools will ensure I’ll have plenty to do. Thank you!

[PAdutchman]

I use a torch in a semi dark room. I use a 12" socket extension and I find a deep well socket that the brass will fit into leaving the top half exposed. I put the neck and sholder into the flame and spin the extension slowly by hand. When the neck and sholder begins to turn cherry red I dump the case into a can of water and go on to the next one.

[mehavey]

When the neck and sholder begins to turn cherry red. . . .

The Gentle Readers mght want to look at:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=18

[Metal god]

I've been trying to tell folks that the low light glow red idea is a bad one for more reasons then what you linked which seems good enough for me . Glowing any shade of color is a terrible metric of measurement because it's not one , it's purely subjective that is based on a minimum of 3 or 4 variables . Like ones ability to see colors accurately , at what low light ? heat of the flame etc etc . If you want to wing it like that , wing it with timing not sight . You will end up with a much more consistent annealing job . You will need a set up that allows you to place and remove the brass at consistent timing intervals .

I've been avoiding these annealing threads as of late because everyone knows better . All I can say to that is everyone has likely read something that makes them believe they know better . I've done my own testing over the years and have come to "my own" conclusions . There is no one way , one timing , one temp , no one anything . It is all about what you are trying to accomplish with your cartridge brass . I break that down to two aspects which are 1) stress relieving and 2) consistent bullet hold/release . These can be the same thing but are not always accomplished annealing in the same way respectively .

[Unclenick]

One other item I'd forgotten that I ran into rereading part of Hatcher's Notebook is that military annealing is what he referred to as soft annealing, designed to make it as easy as possible for the brass to flow into generous machine gun chambers without cracking. The 1921 National Match ammo was made with less annealing, since match rifle chambers were tight, and it was deemed more useful to have brass that would spring back more in those chambers for easy extraction during rapid fire with the bolt gun.

[Benchguy]

I’ve been watching annealing videos and reading articles and posts. I have acquired some components to make an annealer that should control the flame exposure pretty consistently. My hope and future plan is to anneal every firing but not practicing that currently. My firing isn’t much, currently, so what brass is being used without being annealed is being closely monitored for signs of stress. With 5 firings on the 15 round's I am testing with, no signs of problems are visible or recognized. Until the machine is built I will attempt to use the drill method while closely timing the exposure time. I’ll post results when I get them. I’ve mentioned this before it there’s a $#it load of information about reloading and listening, watching, and reloading takes time, sometimes repeating to absorb what I can. This reloading is addictive! Haha!

[MarkCO]

Benchguy, there is an addictive, and an OCD component to it.

The hard part is sorting the folks who beleive in voodoo from just good things to be consistent from those things that don't matter a lot.

If you have not read a summary of "Lessons from the Houston Warehouse" it is something I strongly recommend. Those guys, like Unclenick, it's a good thing to at least consider their perspectives.

[Benchguy]

Sorry to just get back on this. I feel a little bit of both! ������ I think it’s a good thing to be meticulous, as long as it doesn’t drive you crazy and away from enjoying it. Haven’t looked into your suggestion but will. I forgot when I had a chance. I have a new question though. I’ll ask it here but maybe I should also make a new thread? How do you guys de-prime live primed brass. I have several cases I primed many years ago but after doing some measurements I found they aren’t full resized. It’s for my REM 700 22-250 bolt gun. Thanks for any and all advice! ;-)