Hand Loading Self Defense Ammo

[skizzums]

i love these bullets, very accurate and the ballistics are very impressive, the stupid DRT name and the terminal shock advertising definetly wouldnt help your case though, corbin uses DRT bullets in the green line i believe, so it doesnt have the stupid marketing attached

http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/...489eh3bjt5p6zz
http://store.drtammo.com/drtterminal...lets50pcs.aspx


i also want to say that i feel that if i carry a gun outside my home, then i am knowing consciously that i may be using it on another person, so i choose factory loads in my carry gun

in my HD gun i feel i can have whatever i want, because their is no intended purpose for that firearm, it could just be what i had in the mag from my time at the range, it could be my goto hunting round, its just bullets at that point with no purpose behind them, they just happened to be conveniently there when i needed them

[totaldla]

I'm fond of Hornady's XTP-series. I use the 185gr XTP @1000+fps from my 45acp. My testing has shown it to reliably expand in various medias. A big plus is the low-cost that makes it easy to practice with.

[mnoirot64]

Much has been said, on this forum, and elsewhere, regarding the use of hand loads for self defense. Spats McGee has provided links to other posts regarding the potential legal ramifications re: SD hand loads. I have no doubt that these are legitimate facts and all who consider using hand loads for this purpose should be aware of them. It should also be noted that Spats McGee is a lawyer and obviously knows much more about he admissibility of evidence than a mere mortal such as myself.

Originally Posted by Spats McGee

It's about legal repercussions. It's about the interplay between gunshot residue, calculating distance to target, and the rules of evidence.

Another OP has offered his opinion regarding the use of hand loads for self defense:

Originally Posted by MarkCO

The ONLY reason that using handloads for SD is a bad idea is because some people decided it was a bad idea and have continually beat the drum, in contravention of science and facts.

This thread, which admittedly I started, has given me much to think about. So I contacted a very reputable attorney, and friend, in my hometown, Chris Clark. Mr. Clark works at Patton and Pittman here in Clarksville. He is a former prosecutor in Montgomery County, Tennessee and is now a defense attorney. Here is the text of my original email to Mr. Clark:

Originally Posted by Me

Email 1: Since you have some experience defending law abiding concealed carry holders, who have acted in self defense, I thought I might get you to weigh in on this posting I started.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539388

Do you believe it would open a law abiding person to more legal issues if they used hand loaded self defense ammunition in their carry gun?

I followed up with another email:

Originally Posted by Me

Have you ever heard of an instance where someone used hand loaded personal protection ammunition and opened themselves up to more legal troubles? I watch these things very closely and I've never heard of such a case. The one case that kept being brought up was the guy who defended himself with a 10mm auto and it was due to the fact that the prosecutor decided that it was a more powerful pistol than was the norm for self defense. While he used hand loaded ammo, it was never used against him.

Here is Mr. Clark's reply:

Originally Posted by Chris Clark

The way TN law is written, there is no magic set of circumstances that allows you to use deadly force. In other words, it is not a black/white answer; the law is grey at best. Deadly force is just that: force that can or is intended to cause death. Deadly force can be a .22 lr or a 300 Win. Mag. In TN, the law says if you are in fear of death or serious bodily injury, are not engaged in an unlawful activity, and other are in a place you have a right to be, then you can use “deadly force” – bazooka or otherwise (assuming you have the right to use a bazooka, i.e. not engaged in an unlawful activity).

With that said, self-defense is a defense to a criminal prosecution. It is not a right to avoid being charged but a statutory defense that has been created and changed, in scope or otherwise, by our legislature. Once a killing occurs, there is a great deal of discretion as to whether or not a criminal charge will be taken and the discretion happens at multiple levels. Discretion starts with the person pulling the trigger, then the responding officer as to how they put out the call and initial information, then the lead investigator as to how he reports to his supervisor, then to the prosecutor. The elected prosecutor in the local jurisdiction has the ultimate discretion as to whether or not a criminal charge is filed. In Tennessee, a grand jury can initiate charges on their own without a prosecutor’s involvement, but this rarely happens.

It is important to remember that prosecutors are elected officials who may make decisions based on staying in office and collecting a paycheck. Public opinion may play a role. In most cases where a person has shot another person, prosecutors will at least present the case to a grand jury and let the local citizens decide whether or not to initiate criminal proceedings. This is often done by the prosecutor for political insurance. When I was a prosecutor, our office used the grand jury as a tool for this purpose all the time. The grand jury is supposed to be neutral but the prosecutor controls what information goes to the grand jury and how it is presented. When a prosecutor has a bad case that he does not want to prosecute but does not want to face a hurting family or a voting public then he will “kill it at the grand jury.” This means have the officer present the case to the grand jury in such a way that they will return a no true bill, i.e. not find probable cause.

Bottom line, anytime you kill someone, you will be looked at under a microscope. The people who review your case will have an agenda and you don’t know what side of their agenda you will be on. It is best to practice as much risk management as possible.

Feel free to quote me on your forum. If you do, please provide a link to my www.pattonandpittman.com or www.tennesseegunrights.com.

While Mr. Clark is a lawyer in TN, I'm fairly confident that much of what he says would be applicable to other pro-gun states. This debate will inevitably not end due to any response. Some are for, and some are against, using hand loads in the carry pistol. I, for one, have not decided if it merits the risk - even though I would like to.

What say you?

[MarkCO]

Consider two hypothetical questions: (lawyers love hypothetical):

In consideration of a murderous stabbing, will a jury look more or less favorably on a person who stabbed the victim 20 times with a 3" knife, or once with a 12" knife? Will your opinion alter the knife you carry?

In a self defense shooting, will a jury look more or less favorably at a person who used all 10 rounds in a .22RF Ruger MkII to stop the attack, or a person who stopped the attack with one shot from a Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby? Will your opinion alter which weapon you would choose for defense?

I will say that I have pretty good accounts of the juries in front of which I have testified (yes, I have been certified as an expert in several jurisdictions from city to Federal). While not all cases went in favor of my clients, I believe every jury trial in which I have testified, the jury made the right choice. I have been called 3 times by the opposing side to testify...facts are facts no matter who pays the bills.

I've gone through the legal research of McGee, many of the cases have facts that don't even address the issues pertinent to the OP. My reports, opinions and testimony have been subject to scrutiny (rules of evidence) in criminal and civil trials and even a Grand Jury. The role that I fill, as an expert, is to look at facts, science and engineering principles (the 7 natural laws) and present that in layman's terms so that the common juror can understand the principles. Unlike a lawyer, who can assert, implore, accuse and smear, my work and opinions can NOT be unproven theories or they will never make it to the trier of fact (judge or jury).

Based on our very different approaches, I doubt McGee would ever consider hiring me as an expert. My clients hire me based solely on reputation. The vast majority let me do my work without attempting to color or influence my conclusions. When I deliver the conclusion, either preliminary or final, their job then starts...they use the facts and the opinions to create the best defense, prosecution, settlement, etc. as an advocate for their client. In some cases, a preliminary opinion halts my work on a case since the facts support conclusions that would not benefit their client. In some part, that is why many cases never get a written report, some never get to deposition and why such a small percentage (well under 1% of my casework) go to trial.

Personally, it does not matter to me what each person who reads this thread decides to do w.r.t. the OP, as long as they think and make their choice with somber diligence.

[Spats McGee]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

...facts are facts no matter who pays the bills.

. . .

The role that I fill, as an expert, is to look at facts, science and engineering principles (the 7 natural laws) and present that in layman's terms so that the common juror can understand the principles.

Unlike lay witnesses, experts are allowed to present both factual and opinion evidence, and their purpose is to assist the trier of fact in understanding complex matters. That's what they do.

Originally Posted by MarkCO

. . . . Unlike a lawyer, who can assert, implore, accuse and smear, my work and opinions can NOT be unproven theories or they will never make it to the trier of fact (judge or jury).

But even if your work as an expert is impeccable, do you not need reliable data from which to work?

Originally Posted by MarkCO

. . . .Based on our very different approaches, I doubt McGee would ever consider hiring me as an expert. My clients hire me based solely on reputation.

Well, now you've got me curious. Exactly what approach do you think I take?

Originally Posted by MarkCO

I've gone through the legal research of McGee, many of the cases have facts that don't even address the issues pertinent to the OP.

Please give us examples, and let us know what impact those facts have on the rules of evidence.

[Tom Servo]

If we're discussing legal issues, there's a separate subforum for that. If you head there, you'll see a wealth of prior discussion on this very matter.

Spats has posted links to those discussions, and I encourage interested parties to read through those. We don't need to go down the same road yet again.