1947 powder safe???

deadcoyote · June 27, 2009, 10:14 PM

I recently bought a smaller amount (500 rounds) of surplus Turkish 8mm from 1947. Bought it all sight unseen for a ridiculously low price. Of course when i got it i discovered approx 60% of the cases have spilt necks and the bullets fall right out. At first i was extremely angry but i had to remember:
A) I have done alot of business with this individual in the past and always get good deals.
B) I only paid $0.05 per round.

Here's the question: I've pulled all the bullets and saved them and poured all the powder into mason jars. Is it safe to use? I'll post back after i've loaded some of the 196 grain bullets with IMR 3031 and commercial brass to let you know how they shoot.

PS- Moderator please do not move this to the reloading section. No-one there ever answers any of my questions, unlike in the handgun, rifle, and general forums.

okiefarmer · June 27, 2009, 10:18 PM

I'll answer before it get moved.

If I were considering saving the powder, I would have kept the powder from the unsplit neck rounds separate from the split rounds (I am assuming you pulled all the rounds). Those rounds may have absorbed some moisture. That said, I am a cheapskate and would prolly load the pulled powder anyway, loading some trial rounds after thoroughly mixing the powder, but for low vel plinker rounds anyway.

My two pesos.

cornbush · June 27, 2009, 10:40 PM

It might be safe but what data do you use? I would chuck it.

skeeter · June 28, 2009, 03:59 AM

I understand that when powder goes bad it has an acidy smell. Maybe someone can add to this.

**Bud Helms** · June 28, 2009, 09:53 AM

It's not worth taking a chance. Just not worth it.

Since this has become focussed on the powder and whether it is safe to use, I am moving this to the Handloading & Reloading forum.

hogdogs · June 28, 2009, 10:03 AM

I am not a reloader... But had the measurement been averaged of the powder weight, couldn't you reload the same caliber and bullet weight?
Brent

lockedcj7 · June 28, 2009, 10:21 AM

I like to think I'm the king of frugality but I'm with Bud on this one. Even if you know the bullet and charge weight, you don't know what primer was used or the case capacity, neck thickness, etc.

If I was going to do it, I'd pull down some of the good rounds and weigh the charges. Once I had some brass from shooting the good rounds, I'd reload them using the pulled bullets and powder. I'd back off 10% on the charge in any event.

Blue · June 28, 2009, 10:49 AM

I load only with data available from my reloading manuals. While there are some differences between the manuals there is always a safe range that is in agreement within all of them and I always start there when developing a load.

That being said - I would never use any components other than brass or bullets that I didn't have the specs on. The bullets can be compared to something similar so you can get close on them.

I would use the powder for fertilizer. Just not interested in taking any chances in this area. Primers too.

Risk/reward ratio on this is way out of whack for me.

VaFisher · June 28, 2009, 01:52 PM

How would you find out what powder it really is no matter if it's good or not what spec's would you use to reload unknown powder. If you have a way of knowing which powder and it doesn't smell bad then it should be fine to use but start off 10% lower the what is called for.

Slamfire · June 28, 2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

I recently bought a smaller amount (500 rounds) of surplus Turkish 8mm from 1947. Bought it all sight unseen for a ridiculously low price. Of course when i got it i discovered approx 60% of the cases have spilt necks and the bullets fall right out. At first i was extremely angry but i had to remember:
A) I have done alot of business with this individual in the past and always get good deals.
B) I only paid $0.05 per round.

Here's the question: I've pulled all the bullets and saved them and poured all the powder into mason jars. Is it safe to use? I'll post back after i've loaded some of the 196 grain bullets with IMR 3031 and commercial brass to let you know how they shoot.

A good rule of thumb is that commercial gunpowder will last 20 years .

Lot of ammunition depots go Kaboom due to old powders auto igniting.

Cool video

http://www.videosift.com/video/Alban...-Dump-Explodes

Reports:

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files...explosions.pdf

http://www.iansa.org/issues/ammunition-explosions.htm

Double based powders are deteriorating the day it leaves the factory. Stabilizers are in the powder, but once they get used up the rate of deterioration increases. A by product of the reduction/oxidation reaction is Nitric acid gas. Methyl violet paper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_violet is used in stockpile surveillance of powder. If the paper turns red in days/weeks the powder is bad.

Nitric acid gas will cause green corrosion on the base of bullets and will crack cartridge case necks.

Very old powder that has turned red is unsafe to keep.

It is probably unsafe to keep before it turns red, but the color red and a bitter nitric acid gas smell are positive indications that the powder is well past its shelf life. If the bullets are corroded in the cases, the powder is bad.

Pour it out on the lawn if you are uncertain.

For a nickel a round, you got a good deal on bullets.

deadcoyote · June 28, 2009, 11:04 PM

All right you guys sold me on it. I'm just going to reuse the bullets. Of course that means i need to pour all the powder in a pile and shoot flaming arrows at it.....

James R. Burke · June 29, 2009, 03:26 PM

Get rid of it. The best use would be on the lawn for fertilzer away from the house spread thin. Dont use it!

Sevens · June 29, 2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

PS- Moderator please do not move this to the reloading section. No-one there ever answers any of my questions, unlike in the handgun, rifle, and general forums.

I found this bit to be interesting, seems like a little spit in the eye of the H&R forum here. So I ran a search...

You've only ever started one thread in the H&R forum. And then you answered your own question, some 20 minutes after you posted it. Then you posted again a short time later.

Now there is not the high traffic in the H&R forum that you see in the more general handgun, revolver and semi-auto forums, but I think you made a pretty hasty generalization about the Handloading and Reloading forum.

Seems like the H&R forum did a pretty decent job of answering this one.

deadcoyote · June 30, 2009, 09:41 PM

If anything i guess i've been spoiled by the quick fix i get from the other forums. I guess the one time i posted here just left a bad impression.

Sevens · June 30, 2009, 11:39 PM

Actually, I'd call it a "feature" of this forum!

In the general handguns or semi-auto forum, topics get hammered with 30 posts in one evening, it's tough to keep up with 'em sometimes. Other decent topics worthy of discussion get pushed off the front page in short order and lost while they continue to debate the choice of 9, .40 or .45 in five other threads.

Here in the H&R forum, it's mostly a help kind of forum, like the Gunsmith forum. Folks pose questions and everybody pitches in with their thoughts and experiences. And overall, there's less traffic. So it does often take a little longer than 20 minutes to get the answer you seek.

But hang around... this area is good people!

June 27, 2009, 10:14 PM	#1
deadcoyote Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2009 Location: northern CA Posts: 674	1947 powder safe??? I recently bought a smaller amount (500 rounds) of surplus Turkish 8mm from 1947. Bought it all sight unseen for a ridiculously low price. Of course when i got it i discovered approx 60% of the cases have spilt necks and the bullets fall right out. At first i was extremely angry but i had to remember: A) I have done alot of business with this individual in the past and always get good deals. B) I only paid $0.05 per round. Here's the question: I've pulled all the bullets and saved them and poured all the powder into mason jars. Is it safe to use? I'll post back after i've loaded some of the 196 grain bullets with IMR 3031 and commercial brass to let you know how they shoot. PS- Moderator please do not move this to the reloading section. No-one there ever answers any of my questions, unlike in the handgun, rifle, and general forums.

June 28, 2009, 10:21 AM	#7
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	I like to think I'm the king of frugality but I'm with Bud on this one. Even if you know the bullet and charge weight, you don't know what primer was used or the case capacity, neck thickness, etc. If I was going to do it, I'd pull down some of the good rounds and weigh the charges. Once I had some brass from shooting the good rounds, I'd reload them using the pulled bullets and powder. I'd back off 10% on the charge in any event. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

June 28, 2009, 10:49 AM	#8
Blue Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2009 Posts: 113	1947 Powder I load only with data available from my reloading manuals. While there are some differences between the manuals there is always a safe range that is in agreement within all of them and I always start there when developing a load. That being said - I would never use any components other than brass or bullets that I didn't have the specs on. The bullets can be compared to something similar so you can get close on them. I would use the powder for fertilizer. Just not interested in taking any chances in this area. Primers too. Risk/reward ratio on this is way out of whack for me.

June 30, 2009, 09:41 PM	#14
deadcoyote Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2009 Location: northern CA Posts: 674	My apologies sevens... If anything i guess i've been spoiled by the quick fix i get from the other forums. I guess the one time i posted here just left a bad impression.

June 30, 2009, 11:39 PM	#15
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Actually, I'd call it a "feature" of this forum! In the general handguns or semi-auto forum, topics get hammered with 30 posts in one evening, it's tough to keep up with 'em sometimes. Other decent topics worthy of discussion get pushed off the front page in short order and lost while they continue to debate the choice of 9, .40 or .45 in five other threads. Here in the H&R forum, it's mostly a help kind of forum, like the Gunsmith forum. Folks pose questions and everybody pitches in with their thoughts and experiences. And overall, there's less traffic. So it does often take a little longer than 20 minutes to get the answer you seek. But hang around... this area is good people! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

June 27, 2009, 10:18 PM	#2
okiefarmer Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 381	I'll answer before it get moved. If I were considering saving the powder, I would have kept the powder from the unsplit neck rounds separate from the split rounds (I am assuming you pulled all the rounds). Those rounds may have absorbed some moisture. That said, I am a cheapskate and would prolly load the pulled powder anyway, loading some trial rounds after thoroughly mixing the powder, but for low vel plinker rounds anyway. My two pesos.

June 27, 2009, 10:40 PM	#3
cornbush Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: The retarded place below Idaho Posts: 1,408	It might be safe but what data do you use? I would chuck it.

June 28, 2009, 03:59 AM	#4
skeeter Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Posts: 883	I understand that when powder goes bad it has an acidy smell. Maybe someone can add to this.

June 28, 2009, 09:53 AM	#5
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	It's not worth taking a chance. Just not worth it. Since this has become focussed on the powder and whether it is safe to use, I am moving this to the Handloading & Reloading forum.

June 28, 2009, 10:03 AM	#6
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I am not a reloader... But had the measurement been averaged of the powder weight, couldn't you reload the same caliber and bullet weight? Brent

June 28, 2009, 01:52 PM	#9
VaFisher Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 596	How would you find out what powder it really is no matter if it's good or not what spec's would you use to reload unknown powder. If you have a way of knowing which powder and it doesn't smell bad then it should be fine to use but start off 10% lower the what is called for.

June 28, 2009, 11:04 PM	#11
deadcoyote Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2009 Location: northern CA Posts: 674	All right you guys sold me on it. I'm just going to reuse the bullets. Of course that means i need to pour all the powder in a pile and shoot flaming arrows at it.....

June 29, 2009, 03:26 PM	#12
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	Get rid of it. The best use would be on the lawn for fertilzer away from the house spread thin. Dont use it!