Special Test For Really Smart People

WESHOOT2 · December 1, 2001, 10:49 PM

If you don't know who Elmer Keith was please investigate and report back here (for those who might not have the time, but need the knowledge).

Every time I hear "duplex" I'm not thinking 'real estate' LOL.

sricciardelli · December 2, 2001, 12:01 AM

Next to Capstick, Keith was probably one of the biggest BS-ers in the gun world.....

C.R.Sam · December 2, 2001, 12:05 AM

Keith was noisey, but could generaly back up the noise with performance. Many can make noise, not that many can show.

Sam

Archie · December 2, 2001, 12:14 AM

Most thought him either a noble pioneer or completely full of processed bull food.

He was, in fact, a hunter and guide. He hunted and killed game animals pretty much all his life.
He was, in fact, the force behind both the .357 and .44 Magnums. He also admitted blowing out the cylinder and topstrap of several revolvers in his research.

He survived on his own terms for some 84 or 85 years. When we lost him, we lost one of the old wise ones.

And yes, he did in fact shoot a mule deer at 625 yards. With a 4 inch Model 29.

Cain R · December 2, 2001, 01:05 AM

Old Elmer was a first rate story teller. Having read just about all his published books, I've found him far more entertaining than Capstick and a much quicker read than O'Connor, Jack always wrote like he was lecturing his college classes. And Capstick, well, I hate to say it but Cheddar comes to mind.

Say what you want about Elmer most of his so called BS was true. I've read reports of people who new Elmer and went out shooting with him and most of his exploits were right on the money, one fellow described his shooing as almost mystical. Opinionated? You bet. Bull headed? Absolutely. But my absolute favorite gun writer. Even though he is completely offbase about the .270 Win. I do beleive its a little better than a "damn adequate Coyote round."

Quantrill · December 2, 2001, 09:18 AM

I can't say I actually met Elmer but I did speak with him on the phone several times. I found him to be right on the money. He probably was one of the last true experimenters whose experiments became standards. Cast bullet shooters have him to thank for most of today's popular bullets. RIP Elmer! Quantrill

Edward429451 · December 2, 2001, 12:35 PM

AAhhh, good ol' Elmer, my cast bullet hero. He did indeed paste a Mulie at 625 and it penetrated both sides IIRC. Said he got better penetration at long range with heavy 44's, than with some rifle cartridges. (Bullet weight)

He's the 2400 poster child. Me too. RIP Elmer (2400) Keith!

Good Guy · December 2, 2001, 01:18 PM

Isn't he the guy who is perpetually stalking that waskilly wabbit?

C.R.Sam · December 2, 2001, 02:11 PM

Good Guy.....I think you are Fuddled, welcome to the club.

Sam

WIL TERRY · December 3, 2001, 06:44 PM

ELMER KEITH WAS NO BS'ER AND I HIGHLY RESENT YOURS AND ANY OTHER INSINUATIONS THAT HE WAS.
HE WAS SCRUPULOUSLY HONEST PERIOD. THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT FROM ANYONE WHO KNEW HIM.

dntorbert · December 4, 2001, 05:41 PM

I've read some of Elmer Keiths stuff but the duplex comment blew right by me can someone fill me in.

WESHOOT2 · December 4, 2001, 05:52 PM

A recent discussion with a poster here reminded me of what kind of experimenter Keith was. He blew up guns from mixing one or more powders, one on top of the other: a "duplex" load.

That help?

Some have even made triplex loads..........but I managed to blow up a Redhawk the old-fashioned way; too much of one!

Ben Shepherd · December 4, 2001, 05:57 PM

Dntorbert, the duplex comment refers to loading 2 different powders in the same cartrige. I.E., some black powder shooters put a small amount of unique under the black during cold weather shooting for more reliable ignition.

Some, including Kieth were using 2 powders to get more boom out of a load. (Sort of like a multistage rocket motor)

The "original" 454 casull load was a triplex.

Personally, I'll leave that stuff to others, I like all my fingers.

HankB · December 4, 2001, 06:14 PM

Today, usually "duplex" means a load with two powders, arranged in layers. I also think the Army experimented with a "double" bullet in 7.62 NATO which they called duplex. Now, my memory may be playing tricks on me, but for some reason I associate Keith's use of the term to describe the use of a tube inside the case to carry the flash to the front of the powder charge. When testing .50 caliber BMG rounds with this, he got something like 202 ft/sec more velocity with normal pressure. Unfortunately, if fired in an oversize chamber, pressure "spiked."

Maybe I'm confusing that article with another I read about the same time...which must be at least a quarter century ago. Memory must be going . . .

Ala Dan · December 4, 2001, 09:39 PM

Darn it! I didn't get to meet 'ole Elmer;
but I have sure learned a lot from his
work's.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.

keano44 · December 4, 2001, 10:08 PM

Elmer Keith is a hero of mine. Reading, "Hell, I Was There", I found that I agreed with much of his way of thinking (use enough gun, rather than try to make a smaller caliber do something it isn't suited for, even though it may be capable of it.) I'm a huge .44 Magnum fan, partly because of him. However, I am a bit more open minded to other opinions than he was.
You must realize that his strong opinions came from his actual experiences.

Cain R · December 4, 2001, 10:54 PM

Elmer Keith's "Hell I Was There" pg 177. "Birth of the Duplex" ...I became acquainted with Charlie O'Neil...." "First we necked the .30 Newton down to a .22. Then we tried it in .25. A few shots from that thing and the barrel would get so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it...." "I told Charley, We are firing the powder from the wrong end." "...if we could ignite the front end of that charge, and start the bullet up the bore with a portion of it, then the pressure that drove the bullet foreward would hold the powder back in the case until the fire came in the case and it was all consumed." ...(Charley) went home and went to work, he drilled out the flash hole in the primer pockets and then threaded them. He got some brass tube that was small enough to thread, and with a split collet wrench, screw them in from the front end of the case. We experimented with various lengths of tube, finding that a tube cut half the length of the powder chamber was about right and gave the best results." "At that time the war in Europe was going on, and it looked like we would be into it. I didn't want to give it any publicity, other than tell the results, which I did the The American Rifleman and others. The then head of the 'dope bag'....wrote a piece and said we were mixing powders, which we were not doing at all...."

There, Duplex Loads right from the source.

WESHOOT2 · December 4, 2001, 11:10 PM

Thank you.

C.R.Sam · December 5, 2001, 12:32 AM

I think we have two valid definitions of "duplex Load".

Ignition proceeding in two directions.
Ignition from somewhere towards the front of the charge. Also used in 20mm spotter cartridges and other things.

And more commonly used.....
Two powders with different burning caracteristics loaded in case and ignited conventionaly. As in a bit of bullseye next to primer to help ignite slower powder. Or a bit of smokeless under blackpowder charge.

Phill Sharpe played with mulitple powder charges in the 30s.

Sam

Cheapo · December 6, 2001, 04:24 PM

The guy I talked to heard first-hand reports of Old Elmer from his neighbors in Idaho.

Weird guy, insisted on packing his gun on his hip at all times--in the small hamlets that passed for towns way out there. IIRC, the post office shack operator was especially amused.

You had to LOOK hard to find a crime scene in those parts in those days.

True, he gave us the .44 and so forth, but he was a bit stanger and loud than most of us...

Southla1 · December 6, 2001, 11:15 PM

I met Elmer Kieth at the RCBS factory in 1965 when I was stationed at Beale AFB, just a few miles south or Oroville Ca. All I can say is I am honored to have met him. Wish I had the oppurtunity to meet Skeeter Skelton, and Bill Jordan (among others) but alas I did not have the chance.
IIRC the original .454 Casull loads used a TRIPLEX charge. I think it was bullseye, unique and 2400. Whew! That is pushing the envelope. I have pushed it with one powder, but never had stones big enough to experiment with duplex charges let alone triplex.

Quantrill · December 7, 2001, 07:24 PM

I did meet Bill Jordan in 1969 or 70 or both. He was an instructor at Camp Perry for the police instructor's course. He even signed a copy of his book, "No Second Place Winner" for my wife. Later on I introduced my daughter (age 12 at the time) to him. He was a real shooter and I treasure the time I spent with him. While at Camp Perry, one year, I also met Dan Wesson. He seemed a troubled man. I believe it was due to money problems that his new company (at the time) was having. Quantrill

December 1, 2001, 10:49 PM	#1
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Special Test For Really Smart People If you don't know who Elmer Keith was please investigate and report back here (for those who might not have the time, but need the knowledge). Every time I hear "duplex" I'm not thinking 'real estate' LOL. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 2, 2001, 12:14 AM	#4
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	Good Old Elmer..... Most thought him either a noble pioneer or completely full of processed bull food. He was, in fact, a hunter and guide. He hunted and killed game animals pretty much all his life. He was, in fact, the force behind both the .357 and .44 Magnums. He also admitted blowing out the cylinder and topstrap of several revolvers in his research. He survived on his own terms for some 84 or 85 years. When we lost him, we lost one of the old wise ones. And yes, he did in fact shoot a mule deer at 625 yards. With a 4 inch Model 29. __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

December 2, 2001, 09:18 AM	#6
Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 1999 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 725	Elmer Keith I can't say I actually met Elmer but I did speak with him on the phone several times. I found him to be right on the money. He probably was one of the last true experimenters whose experiments became standards. Cast bullet shooters have him to thank for most of today's popular bullets. RIP Elmer! Quantrill

December 2, 2001, 02:11 PM	#9
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Good Guy.....I think you are Fuddled, welcome to the club. Sam __________________ Sam I am, grn egs n packin Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."

December 3, 2001, 06:44 PM	#10
WIL TERRY Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Location: BLACK HILLS Posts: 1,322	ELMER KEITH... ELMER KEITH WAS NO BS'ER AND I HIGHLY RESENT YOURS AND ANY OTHER INSINUATIONS THAT HE WAS. HE WAS SCRUPULOUSLY HONEST PERIOD. THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT FROM ANYONE WHO KNEW HIM.

December 2, 2001, 12:01 AM	#2
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Next to Capstick, Keith was probably one of the biggest BS-ers in the gun world.....

December 2, 2001, 12:05 AM	#3
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Keith was noisey, but could generaly back up the noise with performance. Many can make noise, not that many can show. Sam

December 2, 2001, 01:05 AM	#5
Cain R Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2001 Location: Peoples Dominion of Kanada Posts: 288	Old Elmer was a first rate story teller. Having read just about all his published books, I've found him far more entertaining than Capstick and a much quicker read than O'Connor, Jack always wrote like he was lecturing his college classes. And Capstick, well, I hate to say it but Cheddar comes to mind. Say what you want about Elmer most of his so called BS was true. I've read reports of people who new Elmer and went out shooting with him and most of his exploits were right on the money, one fellow described his shooing as almost mystical. Opinionated? You bet. Bull headed? Absolutely. But my absolute favorite gun writer. Even though he is completely offbase about the .270 Win. I do beleive its a little better than a "damn adequate Coyote round."

December 2, 2001, 12:35 PM	#7
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	AAhhh, good ol' Elmer, my cast bullet hero. He did indeed paste a Mulie at 625 and it penetrated both sides IIRC. Said he got better penetration at long range with heavy 44's, than with some rifle cartridges. (Bullet weight) He's the 2400 poster child. Me too. RIP Elmer (2400) Keith!

December 2, 2001, 01:18 PM	#8
Good Guy Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 1999 Posts: 638	Isn't he the guy who is perpetually stalking that waskilly wabbit?

December 4, 2001, 05:41 PM	#11
dntorbert Member Join Date: July 20, 2001 Location: ALABAMA Posts: 78	I've read some of Elmer Keiths stuff but the duplex comment blew right by me can someone fill me in.

December 4, 2001, 05:52 PM	#12
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	MY PLEASURE A recent discussion with a poster here reminded me of what kind of experimenter Keith was. He blew up guns from mixing one or more powders, one on top of the other: a "duplex" load. That help? Some have even made triplex loads..........but I managed to blow up a Redhawk the old-fashioned way; too much of one! __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 4, 2001, 05:57 PM	#13
Ben Shepherd Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2001 Location: Utah Posts: 1,462	Dntorbert, the duplex comment refers to loading 2 different powders in the same cartrige. I.E., some black powder shooters put a small amount of unique under the black during cold weather shooting for more reliable ignition. Some, including Kieth were using 2 powders to get more boom out of a load. (Sort of like a multistage rocket motor) The "original" 454 casull load was a triplex. Personally, I'll leave that stuff to others, I like all my fingers. __________________ From my cold dead hands......... NRA certified rifle, pistol and shotgun instructor. Hunter education instructor

December 4, 2001, 06:14 PM	#14
HankB Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Location: Central Texas, outside of Austin Posts: 1,698	Today, usually "duplex" means a load with two powders, arranged in layers. I also think the Army experimented with a "double" bullet in 7.62 NATO which they called duplex. Now, my memory may be playing tricks on me, but for some reason I associate Keith's use of the term to describe the use of a tube inside the case to carry the flash to the front of the powder charge. When testing .50 caliber BMG rounds with this, he got something like 202 ft/sec more velocity with normal pressure. Unfortunately, if fired in an oversize chamber, pressure "spiked." Maybe I'm confusing that article with another I read about the same time...which must be at least a quarter century ago. Memory must be going . . . __________________ To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself - Sun Tzu

December 4, 2001, 09:39 PM	#15
Ala Dan Member in memoriam Join Date: August 13, 1999 Location: In The HOT, Humid, and Mu Posts: 6,116	Darn it! I didn't get to meet 'ole Elmer; but I have sure learned a lot from his work's. Best Wishes, Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.

December 4, 2001, 10:08 PM	#16
keano44 Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2001 Location: Lafayette LA Posts: 177	Elmer Keith is a hero of mine. Reading, "Hell, I Was There", I found that I agreed with much of his way of thinking (use enough gun, rather than try to make a smaller caliber do something it isn't suited for, even though it may be capable of it.) I'm a huge .44 Magnum fan, partly because of him. However, I am a bit more open minded to other opinions than he was. You must realize that his strong opinions came from his actual experiences. __________________ I've seen good, and I've seen bad. I've seen fire, and I've seen rain. I've seen war, and I've seen peace. I've seen mountains, and I've seen desserts. I've seen the world, and thought I'd seen it all. But of all the scenes I've ever seen, I ain't never seen no scene, like the scene I'm seein now!........keano44

December 4, 2001, 10:54 PM	#17
Cain R Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2001 Location: Peoples Dominion of Kanada Posts: 288	Elmer Keith's "Hell I Was There" pg 177. "Birth of the Duplex" ...I became acquainted with Charlie O'Neil...." "First we necked the .30 Newton down to a .22. Then we tried it in .25. A few shots from that thing and the barrel would get so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it...." "I told Charley, We are firing the powder from the wrong end." "...if we could ignite the front end of that charge, and start the bullet up the bore with a portion of it, then the pressure that drove the bullet foreward would hold the powder back in the case until the fire came in the case and it was all consumed." ...(Charley) went home and went to work, he drilled out the flash hole in the primer pockets and then threaded them. He got some brass tube that was small enough to thread, and with a split collet wrench, screw them in from the front end of the case. We experimented with various lengths of tube, finding that a tube cut half the length of the powder chamber was about right and gave the best results." "At that time the war in Europe was going on, and it looked like we would be into it. I didn't want to give it any publicity, other than tell the results, which I did the The American Rifleman and others. The then head of the 'dope bag'....wrote a piece and said we were mixing powders, which we were not doing at all...." There, Duplex Loads right from the source.

December 4, 2001, 11:10 PM	#18
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Thank you. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 5, 2001, 12:32 AM	#19
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	I think we have two valid definitions of "duplex Load". Ignition proceeding in two directions. Ignition from somewhere towards the front of the charge. Also used in 20mm spotter cartridges and other things. And more commonly used..... Two powders with different burning caracteristics loaded in case and ignited conventionaly. As in a bit of bullseye next to primer to help ignite slower powder. Or a bit of smokeless under blackpowder charge. Phill Sharpe played with mulitple powder charges in the 30s. Sam

December 6, 2001, 04:24 PM	#20
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	The guy I talked to heard first-hand reports of Old Elmer from his neighbors in Idaho. Weird guy, insisted on packing his gun on his hip at all times--in the small hamlets that passed for towns way out there. IIRC, the post office shack operator was especially amused. You had to LOOK hard to find a crime scene in those parts in those days. True, he gave us the .44 and so forth, but he was a bit stanger and loud than most of us... __________________ Let us never forget that the only legitimate source of government power is the citizens. If WE cannot exercise a certain power, we cannot grant it to the state.

December 6, 2001, 11:15 PM	#21
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	I met Elmer Kieth at the RCBS factory in 1965 when I was stationed at Beale AFB, just a few miles south or Oroville Ca. All I can say is I am honored to have met him. Wish I had the oppurtunity to meet Skeeter Skelton, and Bill Jordan (among others) but alas I did not have the chance. IIRC the original .454 Casull loads used a TRIPLEX charge. I think it was bullseye, unique and 2400. Whew! That is pushing the envelope. I have pushed it with one powder, but never had stones big enough to experiment with duplex charges let alone triplex.

December 7, 2001, 07:24 PM	#22
Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 1999 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 725	Bill Jordan I did meet Bill Jordan in 1969 or 70 or both. He was an instructor at Camp Perry for the police instructor's course. He even signed a copy of his book, "No Second Place Winner" for my wife. Later on I introduced my daughter (age 12 at the time) to him. He was a real shooter and I treasure the time I spent with him. While at Camp Perry, one year, I also met Dan Wesson. He seemed a troubled man. I believe it was due to money problems that his new company (at the time) was having. Quantrill