Martial arts and kicks above the waist question

[David Wright]

Jack99, if you really want to get aerobic benefits and learn a self defense system at the same time, IMO, SCARS is not for you.

I believe Jerry wants to be careful who teaches what out there and wants true "quality control" as well as who learns this stuff. I don't know what his plans are regarding this. As far as moves, one of my easy favorites, is when someone pins you against a wall. We tried to mess this up or resist it, but it still worked. Doesn't matter if they are choking you, pinning you with a baton, whatever. Just start sliding sideways along the wall. The more they try to force you to stay against the wall, the faster you break out of the hold. It's hilarious. This works on brick, cinderblock, whatever. Yes, you will destroy your shirt, but, you get away. Doesn't matter how big or strong they are.
Another great one is to get someone really big (300+ pounds) and have them sit on your chest or abdomen while you are laying down, and as a bonus, have them pin down your arms as well by sitting on them or holding them. In one quick move, thrust your hips up like you're trying to mate with them, and push up on their achilles heels or actual heels. They will get tossed off you fairly quickly. Seeing it is better than reading this, but, once again, it works. I'm 6"-4", at 250 pounds, and my 57 pound 4 year old can do it to me every time. Yes, I try to keep him from doing it, and it still works. Try it. If it doesn't work, we're missing something. E-mail me.
By the way, if you go with another system, you certainly couldn't go wrong with studying with Inosanto or Harris. If it weren't for SCARS, Inosanto or Harris would probably be my very first choice. I may go visit Inosanto some time anyway.

Skorzeny, Vale Tudo is another kettle of fish entirely and I believe effective. Here's the problem though as I see it from a practical side.(for many other styles)

First, fitness level. VT is not for folks with back problems or a long list of other, real world things that can and do happen as you get older. Age affects everyone and in time something will probably restrict you too.

Second, my long experience has been that real criminals don't tend to discipline themselves in a martial art to a high level of skill. It can happen, but it's not my personal experience. Criminals are lazy by nature. That's why they steal, Right? Also, I have seen too many bad guys that have a reputation for having some high proficiency of martial arts training, (even grappling) get taken down, and taken to jail. Some of these guys were HUGE, with huge muscles, and VERY fast, yet, into the cruiser they went. Yes, this even happened when it was just one police officer, not using mace, pepper spray or anything.

Third, when in very, very tight quarters, in a unfamiliar environment with furniture or junk all around, your choices can be limited if your technique requires a little more space to dance.

It's probably my fault, but these posts still seem focused on techniques and not the full dynamics of a fight as handled by SCARS.
As far as grappling issues are concerned, I simply brought up the ways of breaking some of the finishing holds, because to many, some of those holds cannot be countered.
1. SCARS (and some other systems) can counter them.
2. When doing it halfway right, you really shouldn't get into a fix like that in the first place.
3. When you learn to "read a person", and with proper verbal and nonverbal cues make them relax, they really won't get a chance to throw fists and elbows at you at warp speed.
Read this next section carefully.

This is the most fascinating and important thing about this system. I focused so long on technique, I almost missed it. In fact, my brother caught it first.
You can see this on the tapes, but he really doesn't get into it unless you go to the class. This part alone would put you way ahead with whatever system you chose. Jerry's on to something, and he knows what he is talking about. He went into it in class, about what is going on in your opponent's mind at various stages of the battle, and how you can anticipate it and somewhat control it. I can't divulge more than that.
This is not psychobabble BS. It works. And the sweetest part of the deal, is that all humans exhibit exactly the same functions and actions/reactions regardless of training or fitness level. Sober or stoned. Are you catching on to what I'm saying? How well would your system of choice work, if you could accurately anticipate and somewhat control what they were doing? Think about that a minute. There may be similar things out there, but SCARS, IMHO, can get you there much quicker. The best way to counter a blindingly fast set of moves is to end the fight before it gets to that.

I understand were you are coming from, I believe. I spent decades working long and hard to get a edge, and here comes this guy looking like Drake the magician, complete with black clothes, the goatee and similar gonzo marketing that the other "invincible fighting technique" of the week guys use, with the appropriate SEALS stuff and all these claims.

I don't know what you are looking for, but I sense you a looking for something. Perhaps an extra edge? Check this SCARS stuff out. Look at it objectively, long and hard, and remember what I said about the mind stuff. Enough of it is in the tapes if you look carefully to understand what I'm saying.

If it's not for you, get your money back.

I have to ask a smart question. What is your self defense strategy going to be when you get old enough not to do some of those moves you enjoy now? Lower backs are funny things....

------------------
David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit

[Eskrimador1]

My self defense strategy would be the same no matter what the circumstance.


Run like a bat out of hell.

Dave

[Skorzeny]

Mr. Wright:

I do not mean to be offensive, but from your post, it is quite clear to me that your understanding of BJJ/Vale Tudo is extremely limited.

I say that because you seem to emphasize the role that weight and muscular strength play in what you call "grappling." If you have any understanding of BJJ, you will realize that most decent schools and instructors of BJJ emphasize technique over muscle/weight (Kano Jigoro's "maximum effect, minimum effort"). In fact, most BJJ practitioners pride themselves in being able to handle heavier, stronger opponents. Helio Gracie is 85, but can still control and beat just about anyone (heck he even catches Rickson Gracie, his son and the Gracie family champion, if the latter "naps" for a few seconds).

That is also the reason why I got into BJJ because I got tired of bigger and stronger guys (with less skill than me) beating me in other martial arts. Even though I studied Tae Kwon Do for over 10 years, at 170lbs., I could not keep up with an extremely muscular 225lbs. guy from beating me in full-contact matches in Tae Kwon Do.

In BJJ, I routinely beat guys (with less skill than me), who are, compared to me, just humongous. Heck, my wife, who is 5'4" and weighs 115lbs. (she trains with me occassionally) can beat a lot of guys who are 6+' and 200+lbs if they have less skill than she does (she is, by the way, quite skillful with triangular chokes and leg locks). In fact, she has an advantage, because she has small limbs and is very, very hard to catch.

We (BJJ practitioners) go to the ground, because we consider the element of the ground like water - it equalizes weight factors. Leverage may not be everything, but it sure is much of it in BJJ.

The "simple" technique you described in escaping a mount is a common, old Jujutsu technique that some call "upa" or "oompa." It used to be taught quite widely in Jujutsu, but no self-respecting modern BJJ or Vale Tudo instructor will teach it much anymore. The reason: it can be countered very, very easily and can also lead to a painful leg submission for the person performing the oompa (see, as someone pointed out before, BJJ is constantly evolving; oompa is now considered "old" Jiu-Jitsu).

Try these:

1. Next time, have your partner mount you, then have him sink the hooks in (grapevine both legs from outside your legs into the crook of your knees). Then, have him hold your neck (from left side in) with his left arm. Then have him stretch out his right arm and base himself 45 degree to the upper right corner. Have him then put his head to the right side of your head (left side from your point of view). Try oompaing out of that one. He can stay there all day and strike your head/left ear.

2. When you try to do the oompa and hook one of his heels, have your partner kick the heel out 45 degrees. You now have knee compression. Your partner pulls it gently with one hand, and your knee breaks.

One of the great benefits of BJJ/Vale Tudo is dynamic training. We can grapple "full-force" and learn to deal with moving, dynamic opponents while performing submissions 95% strength (extra 5% being necessary to actually break elbows, knees, heels and whatnot). A lot of styles teaching deadly techniques are very good, but unless you can practice those repeatedly against a moving, dynamic, resisting opponent, you will not really be able to use them in a high-stress situation effectively.

Sorry for the long post. My two bits.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[David Wright]

Eskrimador1, there certainly is no shame in running. I've done it before, and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

Skor, read my post again. I only bring up strength as a measure of relative effectiveness of some of the SCARS moves.

Some of the guys in my class had a lot more muscle than I, and it was interesting to all of us that even though one can "sometimes" work around a technique with brute strength, it doesn't work here. Also, One does not have to have all of this warp speed for it to work. That's the best part of all.

And, the big point I believed you missed, was how un-skilled most of the average criminals are. I don't know how many bad guys you have brought down and helped put into a police cars, but I stand on my experience, not speculation.Street experience beats dojo speculation every time. At your present skill level, you are probably WAY over trained to handle the average bad guy. You are trained to fight a very skilled fighter, and that's way enough for the streets.(that's a good thing to have)

It makes me wonder what some people are training for. Many I know could easily handle(if they had any grappling skills at all)almost all, if not all of the normal encounters.
Keep in mind, I am not trying to change your mind. If you're really satisfied with what you do, I am delighted for you. If it works for you, then what anybody says doesn't matter. We can throw around statistics all day, but it has no meaning. I don't have all of the details of what you do with your system, and you don't fully understand mine.
That's o.k. by me. If you don't buy what I am saying, it matters not in the slightest.

The only people I am trying to reach, are those that are looking for somthing better. In my opinion, SCARS is. Enough people(civilians, LEO's and military) with impressive skills from many systems have been through the SCARS facility, that if it WAS inferior, I would have heard about it, especially during our after-class discussions long into the night. Do you understand?

If mystery ex-SEALS or self important gurus on another post want to badmouth SCARS, well, people tend to fall back on what they do best. So be it. It speaks volumes on them, and it's not good. In stark contrast, Jerry personally doesn't go there. That speaks volumes also. Right?

As far as trying some of the moves you where suggesting, you missed my point again in the last post. This sort of thing can get into the "what if" mania, and is not the domain of professional fighters.

1. If you do SCARS right, the other guy (gal?) won't have a chance to do the things you describe.

2. The odds that your average bad guy is going to be that skilled are rare if almost non-existent.

3. For the relative time invested in SCARS that would bring a person to any given skill level we can come up with, I have seen nothing better. Period. The moves you suggested have a level of detail that would take some time to master. Most of the SCARS stuff can be nailed down quickly. If you were new to learning fighting skills, what would you want? I will say that pinning down the mind aspect of it was slower for me. The moves still worked, of course, but some of the deeper meaning was lost to me for awhile.

By the way, we do use "dynamic, agressive, noncompliant" etc. partners, and SCARS still works. Flailing arms, elbows, knees, groins, earlobes, fingers and all. But, we must train REALISTICALLY, musn't we? If I had a dollar for every time someone suggested something involving guns or tactics at this site, that I know from experience doesn't work...

I'm not trying to be a ass here, but that's as plain as I can make it. Sure, it's also possible for a 747 to land on my house, but I don't have any real plans for it if it happens. Training with someone who has 20 black belts, titles out the wazoo and can wrestle 20 men to the ground, all the while quoting Shakespear, has some benefit, but is not reality based training. And, as has happened to me before, someone always comes along and issues a thinly disguised challenge basically saying I can beat you with my system, doesn't get it either. The pros avoid that kind of stuff.

Sad to say, some people I used to respect(and buy their product) here and on other posts, fall into this childish trap. Do I want to do business or listen to someone that has the emotional control of a 12 year old? Not for me. Not even if they have a superior product.
If they are invovled in some aspects of the deadly arts, yet can't control their emotions, why on earth would anyone listen to them?

Something else was brought up frequently in the class. Many students,(none of the LEO's, by the way) were " What iffing" everything to death. As the instructors patiently explained (and the LEO's verifyed over and over and over again)many things that some folks train for and think will happen, either don't happen at all, or so very rarely, it's not worth wasting your time. This, in my experience, happens way too often in dojos. Maybe some of the things taught, are not really needed?

Beyond that, that's all I have to say on this. You will have to call(or e-mail) SCARS and ask them questions. I'm confident that they are well familiar with your system,
and can tell you what you need to know.

Good luck with your training.

------------------
David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit

[Skorzeny]

Heck, running works for me, too. I'm all for track & field!

Unfortunately, sometimes I cannot run away (for example, if someone attacks my wife or if someone insults her honor, etc. etc.).

Mr. Wright: you are absolutely right that many stylists are over-trained for street encounters IF AND ONLY IF we are dealing with common hoodlum or a criminal (that's the police perspective as you stated).

Unfortunately, some troublesome street thug types are not necessarily looking to steal or mug, but to prove how tough they are. With these types of experienced street fighters, many traditional techniques won't work (forget Tae Kwon Do, for example).

Mind you, I am not saying that SCARS does not work. All I am saying is that no matter how effective or intensive a system is, there is no way in hell that a week of training is going to make you skilled enough to deal with a street fighter as some of the SCARS ads seem to proclaim. Maybe a clueless bully, but not with an experienced street fighter.

My personal experiences are not only from the dojo. For the past ten years, I have not been involved in a single fight. My personality has changed completely, especially since I met my wife. But when I was going to school and living in NYC, I had some "issues" and got into street brawls, literally, daily (hey, I am not proud of it, but it happened). I've fought with all kinds of people: street brawlers, wrestlers, boxers, TKD practitioners, Karate-Ka, Judoka... You name it. I'd say that I won about half of the fights at most. In 99% of the fights, my opponent and I eventually went to the ground where I was clueless (in retrospect).

Both Jeet Kune Do (which I do not practice) and BJJ/Vale Tudo have tons of challenge fights and street fight experiences to them. In fact, they were shaped by them. What did not work was discarded. The counters to the "upa" that I described, for example, are not high-level skill moves. They are common in Brazil, for example, where not even chumps try to use the "upa" because it WILL result in a broken knee.

Ultimately, I haven't seen this kind of street testing doen for SCARS. BJJ schools often have open challenges to other stylists or thugs (I have a very nice video tape of a BJJ instructor fighting with, and then thoroughly destroying, a Mexican gang member, who thought he was tough and could make easy $100,000 from the academy). Whether you approve of their mentality or not, the BJJ fighters are out to prove in the streets and in the rings or in garage fights that their system is the best one-on-one, unarmed system in the world. They have been doing that for 75 years now.

When SCARS has that kind of a history of success in real fights or near-real fight NHB matches, then perhaps you should start claiming that it is the best and that you "can get out of any Gracie hold or lock easily."

At the same time, I understand that SCARS works for you and that's great. But IMHO, BJJ is still the best martial art for one-on-one, unarmed combat to study if a beginner is going to stick around more than a few weeks.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[David Wright]

Skor, that was one of my beefs with TKD. I got my BB in it long ago, and, just about any fight, if it goes on long enough, goes to the ground! I too ,like you, in my younger years went out to "test" some things, and got two bullet holes and numerous cuts from the experience. I didn't get killed, but....

I think the lack of SCARS street experience is that their focus, IMHO, is still with the military. Now that they have had the DOD contract, that's were their business is, naturally.

I do wonder about the competition aspect of it all. Offering large sums of money, albeit with a rule book and referees attached, irks me a little bit. But what can we do? I have seen a small portion of a REAL(real illegal) no-holds-barred video with no rules or refs. One of them doesn't walk away from the ring. Ever. I have seen the legal versions and although very similar, there's just something about literally fighting for your life that changes everything. No kidding.......

As far as street thugs with high levels of experience, maybe that's true in NYC.
Down in Texas, that's simply not the case.
Also, I don't make a habit of going to places where "west side story" wannabe's hang out. I carry a gun with me everywhere, and I can read folks very well. It have saved me numerous times.
Also, since I am a DPS instructor, I can't escalate confrontations like regular civilians. I have to play the nice guy, and try to walk away no matter what they say. Oh, I love that part!

Yes, I used to cruise around NYC on foot at 3-4 a.m. in the morning. More than once. On purpose. Don't ask. You still can't get good pizza by the slice down here.

I spoke with 3 BJJ practicioners that were in the first class I attended, (George was from NYC and teaches a ladies self-defense class in the area) and they have a different take than you on this stuff.

Maybe it's a lack of ability on my part to convey it in writing. Like I said before, if nothing else than for the mental part of what Jerry teaches...

Let me know if you ever hit Texas, and I'll treat you to a REAL steak. You NY boys do eat red meat still ,don't you?



------------------
David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit

[Skorzeny]

Thanks for the invite, Mr. Wright!

I don't live in NYC anymore (which is very, very good for my health actually, seeing as how there are some folks there who would love to get their hands on me).

I live in the Midwest now, where the beef is, well, just supreme!

And, no, I can't get good pizza by the slices here either (or good Thai food for that matter)!

Keep training.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[David Wright]

Then Thai it is. We have a dozen or so outstanding Thai restaurants....

------------------
Devil and the deep blue sea behind me,
Vanish in the air you'll never find me...




[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 09, 1999).]

[Mike Spight]

David:

The SCARS sounds interesting. I visited their website and I think I understand the following: It's pretty much a self-study program via their video tapes; you can travel around the country and attend various seminars they give for "one on one" inter-face with their instructors. Is this basically it, or have I missed something?

I liked what I read there...like you, I'm at the age where I don't think my lower back, etc can tolerate the regimen imposed by a traditional art as it once would.

Thanks,
Mike

[Skorzeny]

To All:

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone who like the SCARS system, but after a detailed research, I've concluded that Jerry Petersen is a fraud of the highest order at worst and a very good salesman at best.

I've found that not only does he make outrageous claims for his sytem (that buying the extremely expensive tapes and taking his $5,000 seminar will make you unbeatable "guaranteed"), but he also basically watered-down and re-packaged Master Bill Hulsey's Kung Fu San Soo, which he does not acknowledge at all (claiming that he invented this "revolutionary system") unlike any other legitimate instructors of fighting systems who give credit to their instructors and systems.

I also found out that, basically, he suckers a lot of novices who feel uncomfortable about "Oriental" or traditional martial arts with his wild claims and an expensive advertizing campaign (spends thousands of dollars in almost every martial arts and gun magazines each month for full-page ads - yet none of these magazines had any positive review articles about SCARS).

I also heard from one Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu blue belt (that's after a white belt, so a relative beginner in BJJ) who was intrigued by SCARS and plunked down the money to attend a seminar. In all fairness, he described SCARS as a good basic (and he means B-A-S-I-C) hand-to-hand fighting training for someone with absolutely no fighting skill, but at the end of the seminar (during the "free-sparring" phase at the end), he could control pretty much and easily everybody at the seminar with his blue belt BJJ skills.

Apparently during one of these training sessions, Petersen showed how "easy" it is to defeat grapplers by having someone attempt a double-leg and then simply hit that person in the head as the person came in ("see, how easy it is?"). This obviously competely ignores the fact that grapplers often set up takedowns with low kicks, punches, knees or elbows or waits until the opponent makes the first kick or punch.

This is the same deluded notion that a lot of pure strikers still have about grappling ("hey, I can just punch him or kick him as he comes in"). You watch UFC I or II and can figure out that this type of plan did not really work out (to understate it a little).

Now, some of you might say that I should not judge it until I've taken a look at the system myself. Well, I have no intention of spending hundreds of dollars for watered-down Kung Fu San Soo tapes or several thousand dollars for a few day seminar when a large number of experienced fighters and instructors have seen the system and said that it is crap (not that these techniques are bad, but that one can learn these basic techniques much cheaper and better elsewhere).

I have been in enough fights and trained in enough styles to know what's bull****, what's for show only and what really works.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu



[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 17, 1999).]

[Byron Quick]

Skorzeny,

I posted this on the previous thread but you probably didn't see it.

Basically, I agree with part of what you are saying and vehemently disagree with the other part.

Agree: BJJ is awesome one on one unarmed.

Disagree: BJJ is the best for a person to learn for street use.

The "best one on one unarmed" is a fatal flaw.

I have been in over thirty fights. Serious fights not schoolyard not dojo. I've fought four people in two of these and eight in another (they were unarmed-I wasn't ) Not only won-didn't get hurt. The only fights I've lost were the three where I was jumped from behind. (I check six a LOT nowdays)

On the street, at least down here in the South, it is difficult to arrange a fight one on one unarmed. Especially the impromptu variety.

If I'm out somewhere and some dude goes to the ground with my buddy-well, it's time to kick some guy's head in.

I'm not trying to diss your art. It is formidable in its chosen arena: one on one unarmed. If a BJJ practitioner cannot guarantee those conditions then it becomes a recipe for disaster.

Ain't taking up for SCARS. I know absolutely nothing about it.

[Danger Dave]

Geez, Spartacus, remind me not to hang out with you

[Byron Quick]

Dave,

I haven't been in a fight in a long, long time now. Over ten years. When I stopped repossessing and face to face collecting the opportunities seemed to dwindle People get upset when you back an empty truck up to their door for some reason.

[Skorzeny]

Spartacus:

Your criticism is valid. The BJJ techniques that most people see are geared toward one-on-one unarmed fight.

Now, what about multiple opponents?

Well, BJJ has a fairly strong stand-up component that is not emphasized or shown during realty-based type competitions where, obviously, one-on-one type of techniques matter more.

BJJ stand-up techniques are almost identical to Judo and Japanese Jujutsu techniques (throws, chokes, and arm and wrist joint-manipulations, low kicks, etc. etc.). So, you are not missing out on stand-up techniques for self-defense.

But, let's talk about the multiple opponent scenario some more. If BJJ is not effective for multi-op scenarios, what martial art is? I dare you to tell me a few (TKD? Wing Chun? Shotokan Karate?). The fact is that most of these arts aren't even good for one-on-one fight let alone multiple opponents, especially if you are weaker, smaller and slower than your possibly experienced streetfighter opponent.

I'll say this again (for the 100th time). People have got to get rid of this Walter Mitty, Hollywood movie fantasy of walking into a fight (unarmed, but with steely, quiet eyes) against four experienced street brawlers, only to render them unconscious in three minutes with only a couple of scratches.

For me, any kind of martial arts system is a weapon of last ditch defense. First of all, I am going to avoid any confrontation, especially if there are more than one possible opponents. If I am ever forced to fight more than one person, you'd better believe that I am going to have a shotgun, a handgun, a knife or a stick (I do not like baseball bats as they balance poorly). The only time I would use BJJ is if someone attacks me and I cannot run away or avoid the fight. In that scenario, I would be, more likely than not, already on the ground from the tackle. Lastly, some ground grappling techniques are actually geared for multiple opponents. Sambo fighters, in particular, have excellent techniques for grappling more than one person.

I am all for cross-training. You want to be a complete fighter? Study BJJ, Muy Thai, Jeet Kune Do and boxing. If You just want to learn enough techniques to defend yourself from a street bully, a thug or a rapist, then learn BJJ (or Sambo, Catch Wrestling, etc. etc.). Stay away from something that requires a great deal of strength, flexibility, conditioning and split-second timing like Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Kickboxing.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu



[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 20, 1999).]

[Byron Quick]

Well, for one thing you seem to automatically equate martial art systems with unarmed fighting. Some aren't. Most classical jujutsu styles did not consist of empty handed techniques. The left side of the body was involved in the grappling technique while the right hand was seeking a chink in armour with the knife it held. I would personally seek a style that integrated sticks, knives, and flexible weapons into its curriculum. Canes can be carried anywhere and even lead opponents to underestimate you.

Tell you what. Take your "well rounded BJJ, Muay Thai, Jeet Kune Do, Boxer martial artist. Put him up against a half ass stick fighter or Kali man with a Spyderco. I know who I'll put my money on.

Empty hand martial arts are enjoyable. I enjoy them. They are valuable as a last resort and a forlorn hope. But you better be a budo god if you think you are going to go up against a trained armed opponent and win unscathed. You'll have to be almost unbelievably good to win and wind up crippled. READ SUN TZU AND THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN. I've been reading it for thirty years. Take an old man who knows Sun Tzu in his bones. Put him up against any number of young, hot martial artists of whatever style. I know whose side I want to be on. This is not a game.

------------------
Byron Quick

[Skorzeny]

Spartacus:

1. Yes, I use the term martial art and unarmed combat system interchangeably. I recognize that many Nihon Jujutsu techniques were actually derived from sword techniques (which explains why there are so many defenses against Shomen-uchi in Aikido and Aiki-Jujutsu), but for convenience, I use the term martial arts to refer to a group of unarmed self-defense techniques.

2. I would bet my money on the "halfass stick fighter" or Kali fighter with the knife too. However, I would also bet my money on a half-ass gunman or shotgunner, too. What is your point? My point is that I consider "martial arts" to be the last ditch defense system when I cannot run away, cannot avoid the fight and am without a weapon (a blade, a gun, a stick, a cannon, a fighter-bomber, etc. etc.) or cannot bring a weapon into play.

In such a case, I think that my case for BJJ or Sambo is pretty strong.

By the way, have you ever seen the Dog Brothers? They started out as stickfighters and ended up adding many grappling techniques (courtesy of Machado brothers, who are cousins to the Gracies) when they discovered that many of the stickfights when to the ground. So, they teach a unique brand of stickfighting combined with BJJ.

Try to catch one of their videos if you can. They're wild!

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[Cheapo]

For some reason, all this reminds me of the old Monty Python skit with the British officer training the troops in how to handle a man armed with a banana.

Full Brit accent on:
"What if he comes at you with a POINTED STICK?"

oh, nevermind...

[Jack 99]

Cheapo - LOL!!!!!!!!!

Too funny. That's got to be one of the funniest Monty Python routines ever. Very appropriate.

I really didn't mean to start all of this. For what its worth, I'm going to meet Roy Harris on Thursday for my "free introductory lesson." I talked to him on the phone and he seems like a good guy without too much attitude. I asked him how effective he thinks his training is "on the street" and his response was that there is no such thing as an ultimate system, in his experience. He did say if I trained with him seriously for a year, I could pretty much count on being able to at least inflict enough damage in an unarmed street fight to be able to get the hell out of the situation against at least 99% of the population.

Seems like a pretty sound philosophy, I'm in my 30s and my days of having to prove anything to anybody are pretty far behind me. If my response to a threat is to kick some guy in the groin, knee, whatever, and run like hell, I'm not going to lose any sleep or feel any less manly.

I'll let everyone here know how it goes.

[David Wright]

Spartacus, I try to teach them, but they just chew the covers off the books....Real life elludes(sp?) some folks.
Know what I mean?

Skor, shame on you. The following is definitely not a flame, not even a flicker, but maybe together we can bring you down out of orbit and back to earth safely.

How can you be fully up-to-speed on SCARS in a couple of weeks when you knew little or nothing (by your own admission, If I am correct) about the details several weeks ago. That's an incredible talent! Folks should be considered top level experts when they can evaluate accurately any system that quickly! What would Humphries say about your expertese? (experTEASE perhaps)

Careful, people are watching. The two or three BJJ folks(not novices) that were in my SCARS class didn't share you or your friend's opinion. Maybe they just don't get it.

I have received some private e-mails requesting more info since I posted regarding SCARS. Five of them voiced concerns that they didn't directly post here at TFL due to possible verbal confrontation by some "gurus". They wanted to ask someone who has some "experience". Uh, ahem, yes indeedy.

Your verbage seems to indicate a personal vendetta against Jerry and his system, your post is subjective(!) and no amount of disclaimers or diplomatic verbage (nothing personal against SCARS, but...) will hide that fact. As your post goes on, it gets more and more emotional and personal. It is clear to anyone who reads it. So be it. If that is the picture you want to present of yourself, that's your business.

If you don't like SCARS, just say so, and move on with your life. But to spend so much time here regurgitating your distaste for Jerry speaks volumes. Nobody beats a dead horse, but you seem to want to. Curious.

I find part of your post very offensive. I'm not trying to blow you out of the water, but please read the following carefully. If this post is getting you angry, then get over it. Don't zip through it. You need to realize what you are implying about some of us out here. I believe an apology or at least a clarification might be in order.

I'm no novice (or a *DFV like some), and I'm not a sucker either. And the others I have PERSONALLY seen at SCARS and worked with including HRT, LEO's, LAPD and others that I cannot name and YOU PROBABLY DON'T BEGIN TO HAVE THE CLEARANCE AND/OR REFERENCES TO HEAR ABOUT LET ALONE TO ASSOCIATE/WORK WITH, would probably love to have you explain how they are novices and suckers. I would pay $$ to see you stand before them and state your case. That would be, uh, ah, educational, would it not? The folks that I am very fortunate to associate with are out there frequently doing things that almost all dojo owners and dojo groupies dream (or dread) about getting into. I can tell who hasn't. Period. Full stop. End of story. (for you Marcinko fans

If you are trying to win the hearts and minds of people over to your personal choice, you aren't going to get very far at all with subjective attacks. It never worked for me in my younger years.

Nothing personal, but, regarding SCARS, you don't have any idea what you are talking about, and it's obvious. Here's how we all can tell. When studied carefully, your post contains lots of unsupported personal opinion and hearsay, and no real, accurate,definitive details about the system. Ah, the devil is, indeed, in the details. If you really studied it in detail, then you could make an INFORMED opinion of what you felt were weaknesses or problems and specifically convey that to us OBJECTIVELY without all of the other subjective personal NONSENSE. Right? Right.

I'm not mad at all, but, Skor, really, you make me laugh...HARD.... You have a lot to contribute to this site, but cool it by pulling back on the emotion a bit. You'll get a better audience that way. I still struggle with it. I've been "reigned in" more than once here, but haven't gotten booted yet.

Relax, take your blood pressure medication and take it easy. You don't have to post a reply to me, but think about what I said for awhile. Calmly.
My offer's still good for Thai....

*DFV= Deadly Force Virgin

[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 20, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 20, 1999).]

[Skorzeny]

Jack 99:

Good for you! I have absolutely nothing to do with Roy Harris, but I have heard from many trusted sources that he is an excellent instructor and a good integrator of several systems (mainly JKD and BJJ).

When you get a chance, why don't you ask him what he thinks about Jerry "The Most Dangerous Man Alive" Petersen and his SCARS. I really am curious about what he would say.

Mr. Wright:

I don't have to buy a computer and do extended business with "34th Street Camera/Computers" to know that it's tourist trap and a fraud. I check some references and reviews of stores and I can find out quickly.

Likewise, I did an extensive search on SCARS and talked to a number of people for the past two weeks or so and came to the conclusion.

I think that even Spartacus agrees that BJJ is extremely effective in at least one-on-one, unarmed fight. I don't recall Spartacus saying something of the sort about SCARS.

As I wrote before, if it works for you, that's fantastic and I urge you to cotinue to train in whatever system that works for you. I am merely stating that after an exhaustive research (I am BTW now trying to borrow one of Petersen's tapes), I've come to my own personal conclusions about SCARS and Petersen. That's all. Please do not interpret this as a personal attack on you (though I am still a little miffed about this "I can get out of any Gracie lock or hold" claim, which sounds very Jerry Petersen-like).

Cheers to you all,

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[Mike Spight]

David:

Sorry, you might have missed my question from a few days ago. The SCARS seems interesting...I visited the website and think I understand this much...it's a self-study program (you purchase videos and train with someone at home) and there are opportunities to receive one-on-one instruction at various seminars around the country on a fee basis.

Is that it? Is Jerry's Phoenix location the only place where SCARS is taught on a regular basis?

Thanks...
Mike

[David Wright]

Skor, no harm, no foul.

The Thai offer is legit.

If it makes any difference, I don't like the marketing either. These guys are so far away from what might be assumed from the ads, that it is like night and day. The comment I made was based in part from the other students that are well versed in BJJ. Also,the SCARS people really did go down there to study with the Gracies for awhile, but so many restrictions were put on them as to what the SCARS folks could and couldn't do against the Gracies, that most anything done would have been an unrealistic sport match. The students I worked with couldn't fully utilize what they learned from the Gracies because of the counters involved. They would want to demonstrate a particular hold, but never got the opportunity to get that far. They would want to start closer to a finishing hold, but when we ran it in real time, they never got far enough to do the finishing hold(s). Does this explaination make sense?
We have to get in a position to apply certain holds and moves in the first place. If someone uses any system that effectively won't let you get that far, then we never have a chance to use them.

Let me give a silly yet accurate example.
Let's say someone attacks me and uses the old trick of diving low at me to tackle me on the ground. I can tuck and tumble with them and throw them off(if they're inexperienced), or (and this is virtually impossible for me to describe in writing) I can go to a low position and trap them with my forearms as they dive. Even if they have grabbed me, from this position, I can choke them out, or I can crush their adam's apple, among other choices. I just like how this system can get someone to an efective level quickly. There are no shortcuts to a real skill, but we can be efficient with our moves. BJJ is very effective, but there are other options. There are a lot of good people out there that due to back injuries or other considerations, can't ever get close to your skill level. I think (and my back thinks) that SCARS makes less physical demands. Maybe I should ask Jerry to put up ads in the old folks homes.

Even as Jerry said many times, someone operating at a high skill level in different martial arts besides SCARS can be very dangerous and effective indeed. He's not like the ads at all.

Mike, sorry for the late post. I'm away from the PC a lot nowadays and rarely get to visit TFL anymore. Besides going to Phoenix, you can look-up training partners in your area on the SCARS page. The funny thing about this system is how far you can go with just the videos. I studied and practiced for about two years with the videos, and was apprehensive about attending the class without live partner training. Everything worked out fine at the class. I know this is contrary to everything I have seen before, but it works.

I will say this, everything they did, from pick-up and drop-off at airport, to getting fed breakfast, lunch and dinner (well!) to the facilities, overall organization, clarity of what was going on, professionalism and lack of arrogance or ego was extremely impressive. These guys really are top notch.

Get the videos, if they don't work, get your money back.

What is not on the videos but you may see at class, is when a lot of people pin Jerry or the instructors against a wall, and they get away every time. What do you say to someone that can get away from a bunch of people pinning them to a wall or floor over and over, even against skilled people. They simply know something most people don't. And, more importantly, they can teach others QUICKLY to be effective. If you can handle
a small crowd, you can probably handle getting loose from 1,2,3,4 people, right?

To see it happening is enlightening. No magic, just science as explained, and you can do it too. But still, it makes you wonder how they came up with some of this stuff.

Good Luck

[Mike Spight]

David:

Thanks for the info...I appreciate it!

Mike

[Byron Quick]

Skorzeny,

I had never even heard of SCARS before this thread much less seen it. Of course I didn't comment on its effectiveness either pro or con.

------------------
Byron Quick

[Skorzeny]

Mr. Wright:

This is getting somewhat tiresome for me. I am sure it is becoming so for you, too. However, I'll bite and break down my responses as follows:

1. "Jerry is different in real life" or "Jerry is not like in the ads."

While some may think that we ought to judge a person based on how he behaves in person, I tend to think that we should also judge a man based on what he writes, what he says and how he conducts himself in private as well as in public. In his ads, he makes outrageous and untrue claims and conducts himself like a third-rate Ninja-wanna-be fraud. So, this "he's weird in the ads, but he is really nice if you get to know him" bit doesn't really fly for me.

2. "Jerry's Counters to BJJ doesn't allow BJJ techniques to work"

I don't know how skilled those BJJ practitioners you had in your class are, but at least one BJJ blue belt showed up at Jerry's seminar and schooled pretty much all the participants during free-sparring session where one could do unpredictable things (rather than "if I do this, then you do this" training routine).

For example, what kind of idiotic BJJ fighter would just dive in for double-leg takedown? Even a "half-ass" BJJ fighter would use some punches and kicks to make the opponent back away and then try a takedown when the opponent expects another kick or punch rather than a takedown (this is really basic BJJ, by the way). Or the BJJ fighter may wait until his opponent kicks or punches first and then do a takedown. So, if you wait with your weight forward to counter the double-leg, you are going to get kicked (probably in the knee) or jabbed in the face, rather than get a takedown. After that happens, how much you wanna bet that you'll step back the next time you see that hand or foot coming? That's when a BJJ fighter will do a takedown - when you are backing away in anticipation of the punch or kick.

This demonstrates the problem in training statically with un-dynamic, pre-programmed partner. Look, I can do all kinds of Aikido moves, so long as I know what my opponent is going to do. But I have trouble making Aikido techniques work against someone who moves unpredictably as any real opponent would. But in BJJ, we train by free-sparring in which my partner may do a double-leg, a single-leg, just a clinch or may just slap me if it looks like I am ready to counter a takedown. It is dynamic and unpredictable and our techniques reflect this.

3. "Easy Counter to Double-Leg"

From your description, as a counter to the double-leg, you seem to be doing a sprawl and/or then doing a guillotine choke. Guess what? These are pretty basic "chump" counters to the wrestling double-leg that every BJJ blue belt knows. And guess what else? I know at least three counters for each (sprawl and guillotine) from BJJ. By the way, if you want to do the guillotine correctly, you should trap one of your opponent's arms (the one closest to your body) under your armpit. That makes counters to the guillotine a bit harder to pull off.

As I said before (and as someone else here said, too) BJJ is constantly evolving. BJJ techniques from ten years ago is old, old, old. Heck, many top-level BJJ competitors consider last years techniques to be obsolete. Constant NHB and sports competitions have refined old techniques that work and created new techniques and counters that actually work in dynamic, unpredictable environments.

I might add that this is why Kodokan Judo became so popular in Japan originally (at the turn of the century) - because it cleaned house with other classical Jiu-Jitsu fighters. The latter would train statically (you do this, I do this), because their techniques were unsafe to practice dynamically.

Kano Jigoro removed many unsafe techniques and and then made his fighters train constantly in free-sparring sessions, thus simplifying and concentrating on techniques that worked in actual, fight-like conditions. So, when the time came for Kano's fighters to fight in very realistic contests with other classical Jujutsu fighters, they became undefeated.

Then they came upon a Ryu of Jujutsu that practiced grappling and were defeated handily. Guess what Kodokan did? It added grappling techniques to its curriculum in the form of Ne-Waza (ground techniques). Since then Kodokan Judo reigned supreme in Japan until it turned into an Olympic sport, rather than a combative art.

But that's another story.

4. "SCARS is less physically demanding"

That may very well be true. But, I find that BJJ is not physically demanding at all, because it utilizes leverage and technique, rather than strength and speed.

My wife (all of 5'4" and 110lbs. that she is) has been training in BJJ/Vale Tudo for about one year and can out fight a Tae Kwon Do competitor (over five years of training) of 6' and 180lbs. E-A-S-Y!

It has been my experience that striking arts generally require much more physical conditioning than grappling arts like Aikido, Judo, Sambo or BJJ.

By the way, I meant to ask earlier, but what kind of martial arts training did you have before SCARS?

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu



[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 21, 1999).]