First encounter with police since permit issue - Page 4

AZAK · December 15, 2010, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Technically, we aren't a Republic...We are an Oligarchy...

You may live in an Oligarchy, I live in a Republic.

And if you mean, "What it looks like to many others" then the term might be a plutarchy.

If, and this is a big if, enough of us live in a Republic and act accordingly, then a Republic it is; if not, then there is an entire host of fun words that we can pull out to play with to describe our lack of ...

AH.74 · December 15, 2010, 07:54 AM

Quote:

1. Three people in one car with two guns. How can the officer know who owns the second gun? In most permit states the permit holder goes through a background check that validates they are a law abiding citizen. It says nothing about their friends. If one of your two friends in the car were a felon there could have been serious issues.

Quote:

4. Next time, tell the officer you have your conceal and carry permit and you are armed. Do not volunteer any additional information unless asked.

In the OP it was clearly stated that the driver said "I have 2 loaded handguns and a permit for them."

No issue about the others in the car exists at that point, felons or not. They did not have possession of his guns.

Iron Man · December 15, 2010, 09:15 AM

Yes, it was stated in the original post, but how many times do you see on COPS when guy gets pulled over and they find pot. His first words are, "That isn't mine!"

The cops know that everyone who says something from behind the wheel is telling the truth.

Look beyond the OP and into the situation. There are a lot of moving parts.

Pbearperry · December 15, 2010, 09:44 AM

This whole problem will disappear as soon as Patrol cars get those much needed crystal balls.However I do agree that handcuffing a person who has a carry permit without any other justification is way out of line.That cop needs a good spanking either by lawsuit or firing.I think states that require lawful carriers of firearms to inform Leos is a big mistake.It just adds more problems to the traffic stop.If someone pulls a gun on a cop you shoot him,permit or no permit.

AH.74 · December 15, 2010, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Look beyond the OP and into the situation. There are a lot of moving parts.

Often so, but not really in this case. People sitting in car waiting, doing nothing else. No funny business as cops come up to check, parties polite and agreeable.

There aren't many moving parts, and not a lot of ambiguities from what I can see.

jimbob86 · December 15, 2010, 09:59 AM

Woodguru said:

Quote:

One gun more than likely wouldn't have raised as much reaction. Had the OP refused to show ID, lipped off about his rights, and been generally uncooperative it would have been taken further. A cooperative attitude got him away with his guns, no harm no real foul.

"Lipped off"? "It would have been taken further"? "No harm, no real foul."?

"Respec' mah uh-thor-itay!" I smell an OnlyOne. Or more than one.

There is no foul so foul or real as abusing Official power.

So long as the OP had control of his two guns, I see no problem. Some Office Holders seem to think folks are free to excercise their rights, so long as they do so the way the Office holder feels they should.

You have a problem with two guns? If it is not prohibited by the permit, it's none of your business if he had 2 guns. "Two is one and one is none." .... I don't remember who came up with that, but it has been repeated enough that it is a cliche' ..... yet you would justify this guy's ill treatment because of it, and if he had had a problem with it, worse treatment would have been called for? Really?

If you are an Officer, report to ChileVerde1 for your "earful".

Scout · December 15, 2010, 10:14 AM

I live in Florida. We are not required to reveal that we are armed unless asked by a LEO. Consequently, and as a result of a very unpleasant experience with a Trooper, I never, never, ever tell them. If they want to know, they can ask.

BILLtheDJguy · December 15, 2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:

as a result of a very unpleasant experience with a Trooper, I never, never, ever tell them.

Now you went and done it...

You have to spill the beans, now. How long ago, was this, and where did the incident take place?

Scout · December 15, 2010, 10:45 AM

It was my wife, really. She was pulled for speeding. She realized that her registration was in the glove box along with a Makarov I had given her when we married. She, unfortunately, told the trooper that she didn't want to open the glove box to retrieve the papers because a weapon was in there. He pulled his weapon and called for backup, all the while holding her at gunpoint. The backup did the same. He took the pistol and cleared it. Then gave her a lecture on the evils of having weapon in your car. He placed the pistol back in the holster and glovebox, telling her that it was now unloaded and safe. When I checked the pistol that night it was loaded and off safe. It's a miracle that that tool didn't kill her. So....I don't tell. Why give an idiot a chance to treat you that way?

BILLtheDJguy · December 15, 2010, 10:52 AM

Thank you for that, Scout...I take it she doesn't have much training with it?

I do understand her apprehension, if so, but what can we do with ensuing actions of some LEO's...On one hand, I understand their concern, but on the other, some of them should NOT be doing the job. They simply aren't or are no longer mentally qualified to do it effectively.

I often wonder how many of these are just rookies and how many of them have been involved in a prior incident?....

Scout · December 15, 2010, 11:00 AM

Right, she was a newb at the time. ( A few years ago.) You ask good questions. There would be no point in complaining to the patrol about an incident like this. I'm sure you understand.

BILLtheDJguy · December 15, 2010, 11:05 AM

Absolutely...I'm glad you found the error in the way it was placed back in the gunbox, er...glovebox...That is probably how he stores his weapons...And he inadvertently did the same with hers. I don't believe he had any malicious intent.

pichon · December 15, 2010, 05:38 PM

What ever happened to the sovereignty lies with the people? I have rights. Citizens died to make sure I had those rights. My rights and the law trump whatever the situation looked like. Even if the OP had one gun for each passenger on him, he still has rights and law on his side.

No police officer can violate my 4th amendment rights because he wants to feel safe. There must be probable cause. Officials with power often abuse that power, you can see it throughout history. Why do you think we invented such things as the Bill of Rights, Entrapment laws, and Miranda Warnings?

How does the saying go? Give them an inch and they'll take a mile...

However, I believe in Utah you must volunteer the fact that you have a CCP upfront. Either way, when they run your drivers licence they will find out and wonder why you didn't mention it. But in Utah a CCP is more likely to get you out of a ticket than to get you pulled out of the car.

ripnbst · December 15, 2010, 05:55 PM

I do not EVER disclose having a firearm unless asked. No reason to complicate things. I get all my paperwork in order before the cop even gets to my door so I can just hand it to him. No glovebox needs to be opened with a potential for cop to see anything and get jumpy or anything of that nature.

sixgun67 · December 15, 2010, 06:47 PM

My wallet is in the pocket of my flannel shirt, or on the dash whenever I'm driving and carrying. Registration is in the pocket on my sunvisor. That way, as said before, no fumbling around for stuff. Hands on top of the steering wheel, if not already holding wallet in one hand, with license in the other when officer walks up to my window.
I'm in North Carolina, and the CCW information is attached to our license plate on the vehicle, so officer already knows when he walks up. And, we are required to inform of our CCW if we are carrying.
sixgun

boredom · December 15, 2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixgun

I'm in North Carolina, and the CCW information is attached to our license plate on the vehicle, so officer already knows when he walks up. And, we are required to inform of our CCW if we are carrying.

that is actually false. its tied into your license, which is why your ccw permit # is the same as your DL#. if they were tied into your plates, what would happen when you werent driving your own car? the ccw permit is the best "get out of a ticket" type deal since cleavage was invented.

HotShot.444 · December 15, 2010, 08:00 PM

How many states have an electronic tag on a license-plate, alerting LEO that a CCW permit-holder may be driving the vehicle? And while a state may (or may not) grant to give a resident a license to carry, is not the God-given right to keep and bear arms, protected by The Constitution, therefore our "permit?" A la Ted Nugent (he wasn't the first.)

Glenn Dee · December 15, 2010, 11:21 PM

Once again... Having a CCW license or permit does not automatically make you a good guy. It just may mean that you havent been caught yet.

Glenn Dee

sixgun67 · December 16, 2010, 12:09 PM

Quote:

its tied into your license, which is why your ccw permit # is the same as your DL#.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the real info. I knew it was tied in somehow, and from arguments I've heard on this very board, I was working under the idea that it was the plate itself.
sixgun

Edward429451 · December 16, 2010, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Once again... Having a CCW license or permit does not automatically make you a good guy. It just may mean that you havent been caught yet.

I do not understand what you mean here...Not been caught yet? Is the implication that everyone breaks the Laws just due to the myriad amounts of laws in existance?

So if the LEO's can prudently and correctly not give the permit holders a break on the off chance that a criminally minded individual may have slipped through the screening process...then what is the permit for? What is the advantage in having a permit? On the off chance that a leo will extend some discretion towards me for having it? I can have that kind of hope without paying for it.

I surmise that having or not having the permit has less to with the officers response than my attitude towards the officer. So again, why not save the money if no leinancy is implied for having the permit?

DiscoRacing · December 16, 2010, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Once again... Having a CCW license or permit does not automatically make you a good guy. It just may mean that you havent been caught yet.

Well along that line of logic/thinking then....

....Wearing a badge does not automatically make you a good guy either.

maestro pistolero · December 16, 2010, 02:27 PM

So where does the OP stand on this? Is there a follow through with a complaint, or was this just an academic exercise? If I missed it, my apologies.

DiscoRacing · December 16, 2010, 02:32 PM

I have filed a writen complaint...tho the cheif there did NOT seem happy nor supportive. Just as the night I was speaking of....I was under the impression that I had done something to warrant this incident. Im not sure that filing was the right thing to do in this particular case.

AH.74 · December 16, 2010, 02:34 PM

They don't have to be happy about it or support it.

What's important is that you stood by what you thought was right, and a complaint is on record. That's not a bad thing. A big part of the issue is you having to feel that way at all- you did nothing wrong and shouldn't feel as if you did because of their bad attitude and behavior.

orangello · December 16, 2010, 03:20 PM

I'm not an attorney or an LEO, but it surely seems that a complaint NEEDED to be filed on this one. Thank you for following through, as you standing up for your rights helps protect my rights.

December 15, 2010, 10:14 AM	#82
Scout Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 510	I live in Florida. We are not required to reveal that we are armed unless asked by a LEO. Consequently, and as a result of a very unpleasant experience with a Trooper, I never, never, ever tell them. If they want to know, they can ask. __________________ God bless the U.S. Cavalry

December 15, 2010, 10:45 AM	#84
Scout Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 510	It was my wife, really. She was pulled for speeding. She realized that her registration was in the glove box along with a Makarov I had given her when we married. She, unfortunately, told the trooper that she didn't want to open the glove box to retrieve the papers because a weapon was in there. He pulled his weapon and called for backup, all the while holding her at gunpoint. The backup did the same. He took the pistol and cleared it. Then gave her a lecture on the evils of having weapon in your car. He placed the pistol back in the holster and glovebox, telling her that it was now unloaded and safe. When I checked the pistol that night it was loaded and off safe. It's a miracle that that tool didn't kill her. So....I don't tell. Why give an idiot a chance to treat you that way? __________________ God bless the U.S. Cavalry

December 15, 2010, 11:00 AM	#86
Scout Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 510	Right, she was a newb at the time. ( A few years ago.) You ask good questions. There would be no point in complaining to the patrol about an incident like this. I'm sure you understand. __________________ God bless the U.S. Cavalry

December 15, 2010, 08:00 PM	#92
HotShot.444 Junior member Join Date: September 21, 2010 Posts: 112	Not a "trick" question or smart axx statement. How many states have an electronic tag on a license-plate, alerting LEO that a CCW permit-holder may be driving the vehicle? And while a state may (or may not) grant to give a resident a license to carry, is not the God-given right to keep and bear arms, protected by The Constitution, therefore our "permit?" A la Ted Nugent (he wasn't the first.)

December 16, 2010, 02:32 PM	#98
DiscoRacing Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2008 Location: milton, wv Posts: 3,640	I have filed a writen complaint...tho the cheif there did NOT seem happy nor supportive. Just as the night I was speaking of....I was under the impression that I had done something to warrant this incident. Im not sure that filing was the right thing to do in this particular case. __________________ Desert Eagle Alliance Group Launcher Extraordinaire ______ ----Get Busy Live'n.....Or....Get Busy Die'n......Red -------They call me Dr. Bob,,,, I have a PhD in S&W

December 15, 2010, 09:15 AM	#78
Iron Man Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 346	Yes, it was stated in the original post, but how many times do you see on COPS when guy gets pulled over and they find pot. His first words are, "That isn't mine!" The cops know that everyone who says something from behind the wheel is telling the truth. Look beyond the OP and into the situation. There are a lot of moving parts.

December 15, 2010, 09:44 AM	#79
Pbearperry Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 283	This whole problem will disappear as soon as Patrol cars get those much needed crystal balls.However I do agree that handcuffing a person who has a carry permit without any other justification is way out of line.That cop needs a good spanking either by lawsuit or firing.I think states that require lawful carriers of firearms to inform Leos is a big mistake.It just adds more problems to the traffic stop.If someone pulls a gun on a cop you shoot him,permit or no permit.

December 15, 2010, 10:52 AM	#85
BILLtheDJguy Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2010 Location: Central, FL Posts: 250	Thank you for that, Scout...I take it she doesn't have much training with it? I do understand her apprehension, if so, but what can we do with ensuing actions of some LEO's...On one hand, I understand their concern, but on the other, some of them should NOT be doing the job. They simply aren't or are no longer mentally qualified to do it effectively. I often wonder how many of these are just rookies and how many of them have been involved in a prior incident?....

December 15, 2010, 11:05 AM	#87
BILLtheDJguy Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2010 Location: Central, FL Posts: 250	Absolutely...I'm glad you found the error in the way it was placed back in the gunbox, er...glovebox...That is probably how he stores his weapons...And he inadvertently did the same with hers. I don't believe he had any malicious intent.

December 15, 2010, 05:38 PM	#88
pichon Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 439	What ever happened to the sovereignty lies with the people? I have rights. Citizens died to make sure I had those rights. My rights and the law trump whatever the situation looked like. Even if the OP had one gun for each passenger on him, he still has rights and law on his side. No police officer can violate my 4th amendment rights because he wants to feel safe. There must be probable cause. Officials with power often abuse that power, you can see it throughout history. Why do you think we invented such things as the Bill of Rights, Entrapment laws, and Miranda Warnings? How does the saying go? Give them an inch and they'll take a mile... However, I believe in Utah you must volunteer the fact that you have a CCP upfront. Either way, when they run your drivers licence they will find out and wonder why you didn't mention it. But in Utah a CCP is more likely to get you out of a ticket than to get you pulled out of the car.

December 15, 2010, 05:55 PM	#89
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	I do not EVER disclose having a firearm unless asked. No reason to complicate things. I get all my paperwork in order before the cop even gets to my door so I can just hand it to him. No glovebox needs to be opened with a potential for cop to see anything and get jumpy or anything of that nature.

December 15, 2010, 06:47 PM	#90
sixgun67 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2009 Location: New Philadelphia, Oh Posts: 238	My wallet is in the pocket of my flannel shirt, or on the dash whenever I'm driving and carrying. Registration is in the pocket on my sunvisor. That way, as said before, no fumbling around for stuff. Hands on top of the steering wheel, if not already holding wallet in one hand, with license in the other when officer walks up to my window. I'm in North Carolina, and the CCW information is attached to our license plate on the vehicle, so officer already knows when he walks up. And, we are required to inform of our CCW if we are carrying. sixgun

December 15, 2010, 11:21 PM	#93
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Once again... Having a CCW license or permit does not automatically make you a good guy. It just may mean that you havent been caught yet. Glenn Dee

December 16, 2010, 02:27 PM	#97
maestro pistolero Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Posts: 2,153	So where does the OP stand on this? Is there a follow through with a complaint, or was this just an academic exercise? If I missed it, my apologies.

December 16, 2010, 02:34 PM	#99
AH.74 Junior member Join Date: October 13, 2008 Location: Hermit's Peak Posts: 623	They don't have to be happy about it or support it. What's important is that you stood by what you thought was right, and a complaint is on record. That's not a bad thing. A big part of the issue is you having to feel that way at all- you did nothing wrong and shouldn't feel as if you did because of their bad attitude and behavior.

December 16, 2010, 03:20 PM	#100
orangello Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 566	I'm not an attorney or an LEO, but it surely seems that a complaint NEEDED to be filed on this one. Thank you for following through, as you standing up for your rights helps protect my rights.