870 Police Magnum

Archer 9505 · April 9, 2012, 12:31 PM

A gun broker add describes the 870 Police Magnum as the

Quote:

"Top of the Line, built to higher standards than the Wingmaster"

Question?
Is there a qualitative difference between the Police Magnum and Remington Wingmasters?
Marine Magnums?
Express?

Thanks in advance

Dave McC · April 9, 2012, 03:43 PM

Hype.

They all use the same parts. Some models use a machined extractor, some do not. Neither seems very fragile.

Dfariswheel · April 9, 2012, 06:00 PM

The Police is more or less a Wingmaster with a dull finish and more options on sights and stocks. It's the top of the line in defense pump guns.
The Wingmaster is the top of the line sporting model with the polished blue finish and nice walnut wood.

The Wingmaster and police are higher quality guns then the Express series.
All the 870's use the same basic forged steel receiver and heavy duty fabricated internal parts, but the Express has a rougher surface inside and out, some burrs left in place, and a bead blasted blued finish.
It also uses a metal injection molded (MIM) extractor and ejector and a different magazine spring retention system using plastic parts.

The Marine Magnum and Tactical models are all based on the Express.

All the guns will last several lifetimes.
Heavy duty users say that the 870 may start to develop receiver cracks around the ejection port at around 250,000 (one quarter of a million) rounds.

Archer 9505 · April 9, 2012, 06:23 PM

Thanks for the very informative replies.

bamaranger · April 12, 2012, 01:00 AM

Are we sure about the same parts? Seems like I read, in past couple of years, like maybe from Rem, that the PM's use, HD sear spring, HD carrier dog spring, HD mag tube spring, and the extrators are forged machined, not MIMed.

They (Rem) also claim the PM guns are made in a secure area of the plant, by employees who only assemble PM's, and their were special inspection and fitting processes.

I always thougt an 870 was an 870, but now I think different. And an Express is not a Wingmaster for sure.

Maybe its all changed recently, and they are the same, but I thought hype too, and changed my tune after reading above.

Virginian · April 12, 2012, 06:07 AM

Look at the parts list. The only different mechanical part from a Wingmaster is a heavier sear spring, or a different magazine spring is it has an extra capacity magazine. No MIM parts in a Police Model. There is nothing wrong with a properly made MIM part, the problem is there is no way to non destructively test a MIM part to ensure it is properly made. Forged parts are therefore preferred when a single failure in say 500,000 parts is unacceptable and it might mean a life rather than a missed squirrel. The Expresses are built to a price point. The Wingmasters and Police models have much better finishing, but any mechanical device can have an occasional problem, so any gun to be used for a critical situation should be shot a lot BEFORE the critical situation arises to make sure it functions well..
I have NEVER heard of 870 receivers cracking at any usage point. I have seen old trap models that have worn out several steel parts in their lives still going strong with new parts after 500,000 rounds. The old 58s, and supposedly some of the LW20s would on occasion crack, and that's why the 1100 and the LT20 have redesigned ejection ports so they don't. The 870 is a pump, and pump gun receivers do not see the same stresses as semi autos. The bolt is locked to the barrel until after firing and then the action is moved by hand; not likely to generate steel cracking forces. Mossbergs use aluminum receivers and I have never heard of them cracking either, just as an example.

Sigowner · May 14, 2012, 02:54 PM

Just learned today from Remington that the newer 870 Express 18" with extended magazine tube has the stronger P-model magazine spring. They also recommend changing that spring every 3 years instead of every 6 months or so as for standard magazine springs we've seen....and that 3 years assumes the magazine is always loaded.

drail · May 14, 2012, 09:08 PM

Are they actually claiming the mag spring will retain full power after 3 years loaded to full capacity? If so that's a really good spring.

Virginian · May 15, 2012, 05:54 AM

A well designed modern coil spring should not lose any power if left for 100 years fully compressed. The advantage of coil springs is that they experience stresses far below the plastic deformation threshold, when properly designed. It is only through repeated cycling that they should experience any deterioration, and that is due to the effects of fatigue combined with the compression forces. The old leaf springs operated much closer to the plastic deformation range, and therefore lost power and suffered from fatigue failure at a much higher rate.
Note: improper quality control during manufacture, failure to mitigate corrosion, blown design calculations, or use of the wrong alloy throws everything right out the window.

NYCShooter · May 15, 2012, 07:06 PM

Generally, out of the box, the Police will have a smoother action, as they are finished a little better. This can easily be remedied with 0000 steel wool and shooting, over time: no big deal to me, although others may differ on how important this is to them.

These are the ONLY internal parts that are different between the Express and the Police:

1. The trigger housing on the Police is pressed metal, that on the Express is polymer - advantage Express, as the polymer trigger housing is known to be more durable (ask any Remington armorer). I have bent a few Police guards, but have never damaged an Express guard. Note: I have recently learned that the newer P guns are now also using the polymer trigger guards.

2. The extractor on the Police is forged, the Express is MIM. Upgrade the extractor: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1...duct/EXTRACTORCost $14.99 (I always replace the extractor, but have never seen a MIM extractor break on an Express).

3. The Police has a stronger carrier dog follower spring than the Express. This is also an easily upgrade: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1...R-LATCH-SPRING It is listed as a carrier latch spring for the 1100 and 11-87, but this is the correct spring used in the Police. Cost $4.84 The interesting thing is that Remington charges the same for either spring (the P is black, and that is the only way to tell them apart). So why not use the same spring in both guns? Marketing.

4. The Police uses a stronger magazine spring on the 6+1 versions (I believe that both 4+1 versions now use the same spring). Purchase a new spring from Wolff: http://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20%...108/dID216#606 $8.99

5. Sear spring - As of several years ago both versions now use the identical spring (the one from the Express).

Those are the only differences that matter between the Express and the Police; the rest is simply marketing. Most of the custom 870 builders, such as Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, and AI&P Tactical use the 870 Express platform because it is basically the same gun at a lower cost.

Archer 9505 · May 15, 2012, 07:18 PM

Thanks, Great Info.

April 9, 2012, 06:23 PM	#4
Archer 9505 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Location: Maine Posts: 213	Thanks for the very informative replies. __________________ NRA Life Member "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will" It's a free country; in a free country, freedom is for more than just those that conform to the accepted.

April 12, 2012, 01:00 AM	#5
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	same? Are we sure about the same parts? Seems like I read, in past couple of years, like maybe from Rem, that the PM's use, HD sear spring, HD carrier dog spring, HD mag tube spring, and the extrators are forged machined, not MIMed. They (Rem) also claim the PM guns are made in a secure area of the plant, by employees who only assemble PM's, and their were special inspection and fitting processes. I always thougt an 870 was an 870, but now I think different. And an Express is not a Wingmaster for sure. Maybe its all changed recently, and they are the same, but I thought hype too, and changed my tune after reading above.

May 15, 2012, 07:18 PM	#11
Archer 9505 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Location: Maine Posts: 213	NYCShooter Thanks, Great Info. __________________ NRA Life Member "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will" It's a free country; in a free country, freedom is for more than just those that conform to the accepted.

April 9, 2012, 03:43 PM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Hype. They all use the same parts. Some models use a machined extractor, some do not. Neither seems very fragile.

April 9, 2012, 06:00 PM	#3
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	The Police is more or less a Wingmaster with a dull finish and more options on sights and stocks. It's the top of the line in defense pump guns. The Wingmaster is the top of the line sporting model with the polished blue finish and nice walnut wood. The Wingmaster and police are higher quality guns then the Express series. All the 870's use the same basic forged steel receiver and heavy duty fabricated internal parts, but the Express has a rougher surface inside and out, some burrs left in place, and a bead blasted blued finish. It also uses a metal injection molded (MIM) extractor and ejector and a different magazine spring retention system using plastic parts. The Marine Magnum and Tactical models are all based on the Express. All the guns will last several lifetimes. Heavy duty users say that the 870 may start to develop receiver cracks around the ejection port at around 250,000 (one quarter of a million) rounds.

April 12, 2012, 06:07 AM	#6
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	Look at the parts list. The only different mechanical part from a Wingmaster is a heavier sear spring, or a different magazine spring is it has an extra capacity magazine. No MIM parts in a Police Model. There is nothing wrong with a properly made MIM part, the problem is there is no way to non destructively test a MIM part to ensure it is properly made. Forged parts are therefore preferred when a single failure in say 500,000 parts is unacceptable and it might mean a life rather than a missed squirrel. The Expresses are built to a price point. The Wingmasters and Police models have much better finishing, but any mechanical device can have an occasional problem, so any gun to be used for a critical situation should be shot a lot BEFORE the critical situation arises to make sure it functions well.. I have NEVER heard of 870 receivers cracking at any usage point. I have seen old trap models that have worn out several steel parts in their lives still going strong with new parts after 500,000 rounds. The old 58s, and supposedly some of the LW20s would on occasion crack, and that's why the 1100 and the LT20 have redesigned ejection ports so they don't. The 870 is a pump, and pump gun receivers do not see the same stresses as semi autos. The bolt is locked to the barrel until after firing and then the action is moved by hand; not likely to generate steel cracking forces. Mossbergs use aluminum receivers and I have never heard of them cracking either, just as an example.

May 14, 2012, 02:54 PM	#7
Sigowner Member Join Date: March 27, 2012 Posts: 77	Just learned today from Remington that the newer 870 Express 18" with extended magazine tube has the stronger P-model magazine spring. They also recommend changing that spring every 3 years instead of every 6 months or so as for standard magazine springs we've seen....and that 3 years assumes the magazine is always loaded.

May 14, 2012, 09:08 PM	#8
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	Are they actually claiming the mag spring will retain full power after 3 years loaded to full capacity? If so that's a really good spring.

May 15, 2012, 05:54 AM	#9
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	A well designed modern coil spring should not lose any power if left for 100 years fully compressed. The advantage of coil springs is that they experience stresses far below the plastic deformation threshold, when properly designed. It is only through repeated cycling that they should experience any deterioration, and that is due to the effects of fatigue combined with the compression forces. The old leaf springs operated much closer to the plastic deformation range, and therefore lost power and suffered from fatigue failure at a much higher rate. Note: improper quality control during manufacture, failure to mitigate corrosion, blown design calculations, or use of the wrong alloy throws everything right out the window.

May 15, 2012, 07:06 PM	#10
NYCShooter Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2009 Posts: 103	Generally, out of the box, the Police will have a smoother action, as they are finished a little better. This can easily be remedied with 0000 steel wool and shooting, over time: no big deal to me, although others may differ on how important this is to them. These are the ONLY internal parts that are different between the Express and the Police: 1. The trigger housing on the Police is pressed metal, that on the Express is polymer - advantage Express, as the polymer trigger housing is known to be more durable (ask any Remington armorer). I have bent a few Police guards, but have never damaged an Express guard. Note: I have recently learned that the newer P guns are now also using the polymer trigger guards. 2. The extractor on the Police is forged, the Express is MIM. Upgrade the extractor: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1...duct/EXTRACTORCost $14.99 (I always replace the extractor, but have never seen a MIM extractor break on an Express). 3. The Police has a stronger carrier dog follower spring than the Express. This is also an easily upgrade: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1...R-LATCH-SPRING It is listed as a carrier latch spring for the 1100 and 11-87, but this is the correct spring used in the Police. Cost $4.84 The interesting thing is that Remington charges the same for either spring (the P is black, and that is the only way to tell them apart). So why not use the same spring in both guns? Marketing. 4. The Police uses a stronger magazine spring on the 6+1 versions (I believe that both 4+1 versions now use the same spring). Purchase a new spring from Wolff: http://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20%...108/dID216#606 $8.99 5. Sear spring - As of several years ago both versions now use the identical spring (the one from the Express). Those are the only differences that matter between the Express and the Police; the rest is simply marketing. Most of the custom 870 builders, such as Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, and AI&P Tactical use the 870 Express platform because it is basically the same gun at a lower cost.