Powder for 308

[Wendyj]

I tried 3 powders in 308 today. Varget 41 gr. 42 gr. 43 gr. 44 gr. cci primers. Hornady brass. 168 combined technology Sierra spitzers. Looked like shotgun pattern. I just can't seem to make it work. At best 2 inch group with 44 gr.

IMR 4034 178 Hornady Amax under 40 gr of powder. 5 shot group 1.23
IMR 3031. 40 gr Sierra spitzers. .542 3 shot group.
Reloader 15 40.5 grains 165 nbt. .634

I don't understand the Varget. Everyone recommends it for 308. Index card with Noslers even shows 44 gr Varget most accurate load tried. I know that's not my rifle it's talking about. I had used it before and laddered up .3 grains from 40 to 45. No luck. I don't get it.

[Wendyj]

I am super happy with this 7 mag 4831 IMR powder. It's consistent all the time. 62-63 grains prett much same under a dime. Either 140 nbt or combined technology Nosler silver tips. First silver tips I've used. Wondering how they will do on game at longer ranges.

[WVMountaineer]

They'll do fine on game at longer ranges. God Bless

[Wendyj]

Thanks Mountaineer

[Road_Clam]

Originally Posted by Wendyj

I don't understand the Varget. Everyone recommends it for 308

Varget seems to be everyone's internet "pet powder". I tend to believe it's the internet "I better use it and brag about it cause everyone else uses's it and brags about it" scenario. It's also the FIRST powder that will fly off the shelves at the slightest sign of a gun "panic". I've tried it in both .308 and .223 and yes it works excellent. No better or worse than the other half dozen .223/.308 crossover powders that are available from my gathered data. Varget is overrated IMO. I have about 4 different powders with excellent loads ready to go and Varg is NOT one of them. So no matter what panic sets in of if there is continued powder availability issues in the marketplace, I got things covered with diversity !

[Blue Grass]

I can get acceptable accuracy in .308 Win with several different powders. Varget has never been my very favorite with any thing but it will do in a pinch. For my rifles in .308 Win, I like IMR-3031 for bullets under 150 gr and IMR-4064 for heavier bullets. YMMV.

[4runnerman]

Road Clam- Varget is the number 1 powder in 308 loads. Lots of top bench shooters use it. Varget is not a internet myth by far. It is like Unique Powder in pistols. It is the one powder that just works in almost everything. If I had to choose just one powder for all my rifles it would be Varget for sure. Thank god we don't have to though. That said-I am with you on 308 loads. I do not use it in 308. I do use it in 223 and my 6MMBR.
RL-15 is my 308 powder. Will be intresting to see if the new Varget ( Varget extreame) is going to be as popular. Also- The 308 is probably one if not the easiest cartridges to come up with a load for. It just shoots good with lots of powders.

[Wendyj]

I'm going to have to go with Bluegrass. His same powders work identical with me. Varget may work for some people and I know it's popular but doesn't do it for me. I've put mine up in case I buy a 243 or 270.

[Will-j]

4runnerman; You load Varget long enough and you'll find that it works BEST at the top of its pressure range...Just like IMR 4895. They are as close to the same powder (in burning rate) as you can get. They are the most accurate at max loading in the .308 case. 47.0gr either Varget or IMR 4895 under Nos.150 BT is .5 MOA in three of my .308s, with a Ruger 77 Varminter going .375" all day long. Pick your case/primer, and keep the bullet .005-.015' off the lands and you'll start to find your sweet spot.

Metal god; Powders which are generally considered as [fast] burning are often the better powders for [Straight-walled] cases, even with the heavier bullet weights. In those cases, they seem to "slow down" in burning rate as compared to [shouldered] cases. At that point, the slower burning powders which are good in the shouldered cases tend to become more slower burning in the straight-walled cases and velocity tends to fall off and sometimes accuracy goes out the window as well. Rl-7; 4198 (both H and IMR); H322; Rl 10X; and a few more on the faster burning side will tend to work better in the .375 Win, .444 Mar, .45-70 and other like cases.
It's just a matter of finding the right powder for the combo at hand.


Wendy; The Nos. BTs and the C/T BSTs are of the same, exact construction except for the tip color and the black [oxide] coating on the BST. No need to pay anymore for the C/T-BSTs. Not one iota difference in terminal performance.

WILL.

[4runnerman]

Will J could be what you say, but I just found RL-15 to be better in my 308. I did shoot FTR Class with my 308, and while a lot of people there did use Varget there where a lot the did not. I have never found a load that shoots or should say out shoots a mid range load for accuracy. I don't hunt so my loads are built for accuracy only. I understand that a hunting load is different than a target load. My load of 42.3 RL-15, GM210M and 175 Serrias was a very good load for 1000 yard matches.

[Will-j]

Road_Clam;
Don't know how long you've been reloading; To what degree you've ventured in your loading, and, with all due respect... Don't really care. As for this thing about Varget and Internet BS...."I'd-better-get-it -because-everybody-is using-it" crap is just that...CRAP.

I've been using Varget since it first hit the shelves, and that was a helluva long time before I EVER thought about the Internet, Or ANY computer, for that matter. 40 yrs at the bench...8+yrs with Varget and a few others in that range [but the comp./Internet since only last Sept.]

My experience with Varget is tried and true and has been for years... not some [I'd-better-do-this-because-everyone-on-the-Internet-is doing-it] thing.
If it works for you...fine. The point is...IT WORKS. If your rifles get only "X" accuracy with any varied combo of recipes and Varget or, any other powder for that matter, meets that level of "X" accuracy...It works. No big deal one way or the other. If you worked on your rifles and got a bit more accuracy from them, perhaps you might find that Varget just might be a bit
more optimal than some other powders you've been using...Both in accuracy and velocity....But don't categorize it as [This Internet wonder powder] that everybody is jumping on the wagon and praising....Because it just may not work for everyone. But, for whom it does work, and works well, let them enjoy the benefits it gives them and leave this Internet BS to some other site. It does not belong here; Folks here are supposed to be helping one another with the loading scene, not denigrating anything, or anyone, because one does not agree with what another might or might not agree to; Or they agree/disagree with someone else other than yourself, for that matter.

In short...If it works for you....well and good. If NOT for you, but for someone else...all well and good also. The thing is...It will work for someone, somewhere, sometime, somehow....Whether or not it works for you...To your satisfaction.

WILL.

[Metal god]

Will-j : WHOA there little fella . I had to go back and re-read Roadclams post to see where that high horse you road in on came from . I believe he was quite clear that he's used Varget with excellent results . He just thinks it has a lot of internet hype . Nothing wrong with that .

Furthermore , I've been apart of this forum and this internet thing for quite awhile . There are guys here at TFL that I respect greatly after a few years of reading there post . Although there has been a few that say Varget is there number one powder . There are MANY more that say IMR 4064 and RL-15 and a couple others are there go to best powders . Case in point , Federal gold metal match used IMR 4064 then went to RL-15 then I think back to 4064 . hmm no Varget in there ??? Why would they not use the best powder- "Varget" ? I guess Federal does not know what they're doing . So how bout you put a few more post under your belt before you start calling members out like that .

Metal

[joneb]

I've been happy with Varget with 150gr bullets and I've been happy with bl-c2 for 168-169gr bullets. Both loads shoot under 2" groups for me at 200yds from a Howa 1500.

[Marco Califo]

80 Hodgdon Benchmark
81 Hodgdon H335
82 Ramshot X-Terminator
83 Accurate 2230
84 Accurate 2460s
85 IMR, 8208
86 Ramshot TAC
87 Hodgdon H4895
88 VihtaVuori N530
89 IMR, 4895
90 VihtaVuori N135
91 Alliant 12
92 Accurate 2495BR
93 IMR, 4064
94 NORMA 202
95 Accurate 4064
96 Accurate 2520
97 Alliant 15
98 VihtaVuori N140
99 Hodgdon VARGET
100 IMR, 4320
101 Winchester 748
102 Hodgdon BL-C(2)
103 Hodgdon CFE223

I like Varget, but will be trying most of that list. You may notice that the powders mentioned for long range and accuracy are the slower burning extruded powders, like Varget, R15, 4064.

[Will-j]

4Runner;
I fully understand and agree with you on the RL-15. I have an H&R Ultra in .308 which shoots 165gr SSTs, Nos. BTs, and 168 Match pills of just about any flavor into 1-hole groups (some a little more ragged than others) at 100 yds. and ONLY with RL-15...46.0gr/ LC Match case/and either BR-2, Fed210M, or CCI # 34 primers.(why the 34s?...Haven't the slightest.) Still, most of the other loads prefer Varget and/or IMR 4895 to any other powders, especially with 150gr bullets.

The match loads will go into 1.74"@ a measured 440yds and [minute-of-baseball] at a laser-measured 660+ yds.

The H&R did need some attention to the forearm bedding resulting in floating the forestock and cushioning the barrel lug/stock pad with a neoprene doughnut washer as found in faucets..( DAAAMMNN.. Didn't mean to give that bit of info out.) Oh, well; If it helps other H&R shooters,(?) and a bi-pod works well also.

All seriousness aside, runner,.. Every rifle has its own preferences in recipes for accuracy, and those preferences are what we need to address.
The only way to find them is through trial-and-error. 1/2 gr.+/-, .005"+/-, neck-size vs. FLS...who knows? I've been at the bench 40 yrs. (come Nov.) and I don't think I'm even close to halfway through finding out everything I need to know about my stuff. I do know [that] there are others out there with much more time at the bench and they are [likewise] no closer than I am to learning all there is to learn. However....

I digress, and apologize for wandering...such as happens as we get on in years. Take care and keep on with trying different things.. Perhaps one day we'll all find that one magic recipe for all our loads.

WILL.

[Will-j]

M G;

I, too, went back and reread...several times... Road_Clam's post and I stand by my post. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it, as is everyone else in these fora (forums) and I think Clam is just about as high on his [horse] as you think I am on mine.

FWIW, I do not think Varget is "THE" powder. In fact, IMR4895 is now/has been my powder of choice since '75, (except for a few side trips to H4895) and has been my "go-to" for .223; .22-250; .243; 7-08; 7X57; .30-30; and .308 in the short cases, and in the larger cases from .25-06; .280 Rem.; 7 Rem. Mag; .30-06; .300 W'by.; .338 Win. Mag; and .444 Mar. [all the aforementioned for accuracy/reduced lds. only], as each caliber has its own preferred powder for hunting loads, although perhaps not so accurate for target work, but 'hunting accurate' enough for me.

M G...Everyone has his/her own preference for something...Anything.. and it matters not what anyone else thinks or cares relative to any other person's preference . Clam stated his opinion/preference, as have others here....and if you don't agree with anyone else..so what? Chill out. Who/what's gonna get hurt? Nuttin' but some feelings.

One does not need a great many posts to opine on something, or to call out something on someone else's posts, as long as the callout is legitimate, and that, my Friend, is where OPINION comes into play. I don't have much longer here, and I'll call 'em like I see 'em 'til I can't any longer, and therein lies the rest of the story (so to speak). Your opinion, Clam's opinion,and everyone else's. That's what makes these on-line get-togethers so much fun.

WILL.

BTW....'preciate the "Little fella" bit. It's been a looong time since I've been called that; And even longer since I've been small enough to BE called that. Thanks. (I think).

[Metal god]

Will-j : Fair enough

[Will-j]

M G:

White flag, WHITE FLAG.!

One Grandpa to another. I've just not been myself lately. If I didn't know better (and here again, I have my doubts) I'd swear there's something to this Male Meno....Menop...well, whatever the hell they call it. I just haven't been myself since Jan. when I had a heart attack. Things just seem to bother me that I never would have given a second thought and I just get this wild hair and start picking at things for no particular reason. Don't know where the hair comes from...Been bald as a baseball for years.

Most of the time I just stroll through the forums [definitely NOT to be confused with 'trolling'] and see what's out there. Most of the time lately,though, it seems like the rehashing of topics with everybody jumping in and the same ol'-- same ol' all over again, and then....some yahoo goes off-topic with something totally unrelated to the subject at hand and it goes downhill from there.
You know.....YADA...YADA...YADA...etc.

Well, I think I feel a flash coming on... Gonna get on outa' here 'afore I go off on a tangent again. Catch ya' around.

WILL.

[green_MTman]

cant beat Varget on a .308

[Will-j]

G_M M:

Yeah....,You can. No...,you can't. Yeah....,You Can. Ad infinitum. I've gotten small..read that bughole groups with a [baker's] dozen different powders in a half-dozen different .308s and .243s, but just about every one took a different recipe and loooonng hours of testing to get there. Now..., you tell me which one was B_E_S_T. They all gave practically the S_A_M_E level of accuracy as to group size. Different velocities...certainly; Differing recipes..,definitely... But...., Which one was B E S T... POWDER-WISE?

Theoretically speaking.. it's all preferential. And, whichever powder happens to be at hand when all the others are gone. Take any powder within reason for any cartridge......fast burning or slow and eventually....with substantial testing... you will find a good, perhaps excellent, load for that particular cartridge. Does that particular powder merit the "best" designation? To you, perhaps, but it doesn't make it absolute for anyone/everyone else...Generally speaking, of course.

To each their own. As a lark, years ago, I filled some '-06 cases to the neck with H-5010 primed w/Fed 215s, and topped w/some 168gr Nosler Match HPs and loaded them all into a Savage 116 W Warrior. 10 rds into one ragged hole covered completely by a dime with change to spare. Velocity was so slow, you could practically follow the bullet to the target. Efficient? NO. Practical? NO. Best powder? Hell, NO.

Later, I did the same with some LC cases and the same powder//primer//bullet combo. Disaster. I had .30-30 loads which beat that setup. So the controversy will continue....AD INFINITUM.

You have a good day.

WILL.

[Road_Clam]

Gentlemen, apologies for perceived stomping on peoples Varget parade, I did not intend to insult. I agree Varget is an excellent powder , however there is ALSO many equivalents that seem to have little "internet respect" IMO ( IN MY OPINION) it's simply because people have not taken the time to test alternate powders because it's so easy to gain knowledge from just reading on the internet and not doing the research yourself. Those of you who have tested Varget and it's your go to powder , you have my thumbs up. Me personally never observed exceptional accuracy when I tested Varget it was about average to my "better" .308 powders such as W748, and 4064. I actually saw sub par performance in .223 with lighter bullets, but YMMV. Like I commented previously when the SHTF your Varget (and RL15) will be nowhere to be found...

[green_MTman]

@WillJ

i didnt say Varget was the only powder that works well in .308 win, but its always one of the top choices

[anothernewb]

RL15 and 4064 are a tie for me. although 4064 seems to be better with 168+ bullets.
I either have a forgiving rifle- or my technique is so bad that both loads are more accurate than I am.

I also have 4166. while I don't have any real data on loads yet. it sure meters nice. Nice enough to not have to weigh every stinking charge like 4064.

[Metal god]

I just haven't been myself since Jan. when I had a heart attack.

Sorry to her that , hope you're out of the woods and feeling better now

Back to powders , I was just thinking about something I read about Varget . I think it was this thread but did not want to look through all the post to find it . Someone said Varget works best at max load/pressure . If that's accurate , I'd think that may explain why so many don't find that perfect node . My thinking is two fold .

1) Most Shooters that are looking for pure accuracy don't really want a max load . Rather a load that accomplishes there goal of best accuracy . If I'm looking for an accurate load with a specific powder and I'm near or at peak pressure and still have not found what I'm looking for . I stop with that powder . Power Pro 2000mr comes to mind . I heard it does real well at max loads and or peak pressure . I've worked up a couple ponds worth of 2000mr using 5 or so different bullets never finding that one great load . Likely because I was unwilling to push the load right to it's max .I did find a good hunting load using 150 GK that shoots 1 moa at 100yds but again not at max pressure . If you do find a good load at max pressure I feel that leaves very little you can do to fine tune the load . Especially if you want to start seating the bullet closer to the lands . I found maybe my most accurate load to date a few months back using 4064 and 175gr smk . The problem I have with this load is every 3rd-ish shot I get a sticky bolt lift . That right there is right at my peak pressure and I'm not to comfortable shooting that load so I don't load it even though it shoots little one hole groups .

2) If you do end up having such a small max pressure widow to work with . I'd think that would create a issue with barrel/rifle harmonics . My thinking is there would be a little luck involved that your particular rifle was set up in such a way that Vargets peak pressure turned out to also be what creates the best harmonic factor for your rifle . I'm not sure how many here manipulate there rifle harmonics by adjusting the torque on the action screws as part of the fine tuning of a load . I'd think not many . How ever if you have a powder that does it's best work between mid to peak pressure . That powder may be much easier to find that one good load over a variety of rifles , barrels and contours . I'd be curious to see if Varget does better in a certain barrel length or contour then others .

Anyways that's just me thinking out loud here . Is that making any sense ?

[4runnerman]

Metal- You bring up a good point. Action screws are one of the biggest factors in accuracy that no one seems to mess with. There was an article a few years back by some top shooter. Any how he decided to do a test on action screw tension. Long story short here- Most rifles will tell you somewhere between 50 to 65 inch lbs. What he found out in testing 10 different rifle makers is- Only 2 of those rifles where deemed good at that setting. The other 8 rifles were best between 30 to 40 inch lbs. I did the test on my 6br. I got to 35 in back and 30 front. Every lb I went above that the groups started opening up again. Most would be amazed how there shooting would improve by doing this simple test