R-P Brass bad? (.38 spcl)

CMKiefer · February 1, 2009, 05:06 PM

I just worked up a load for plinking and have some questions.

The recipe is:
.38 spcl
125 gr plated FP (Berry's)
4.5 gr Bullseye
CCI 500 sm pistol primers
1.435 OACL
Mixed brass (Winchester, Midway, R-P)

While seating bullets I found that while I could "feel" the bullet seating in the Winchester and Midway brass, when I seated in the R-P brass, it felt like I was seating air.

Upon inspection, on many of the R-P loads I could actually move the bullet in the casing (as in pull it out by hand). Crimp is relatively light because of the plated bullets. I could not budge the bullet in the Winchester and Midway brass. When placing the bullet for crimp, I noticed I could push it in further on the R-P brass but it would still get "tight". It was after the seating and crimping that the bullet really got loose.

Case length is consistent so I weighed up a small sample of each. Here's what I found:

R-P Midway Winchester
1 64.9 64.3 64.8 gr
2 64.9 64.4 65.0 gr
3 65.0 64.5 65.0 gr
4 65.5 65.1 65.1 gr
5 66.1 65.4 65.3 gr
6 66.3 65.5 65.3 gr
7 66.4 65.6 65.4 gr
8 66.5 65.6 65.7 gr
9 66.9 66.0 65.8 gr
Average 65.8 65.2 65.3 gr
Median 66.1 65.4 65.3 gr
Mean 2.0 1.7 1.0 gr

I know this is a small sampling. I didn't want to spend the day weighing brass. Notice the R-P comes out heavier on average but a wider range of weights.

Anybody else have this kind of experience with R-P brass? Any thoughts as to the apparent "weakness" of the casings?

Stick_man · February 1, 2009, 05:35 PM

Are you using new, once-fired, or multi-fired brass? How is your resizing die? Are you belling the brass? How clean is the brass before resizing? Are there any signs of stretching?

There are many possibilities.

I have had excellent results with the R-P brass. I will reload the .38's 5 or 6 times (sometimes more, sometimes less) before discarding unless I see signs of weakness or cracking.

CMKiefer · February 1, 2009, 05:58 PM

Once fired

This brass was resized expanded and seated along with the other brands.

Very little flair, just enough to start the bullet.

All was tumbled in walnut shell media together.

No signs of stress.

I assume that since the other brass holds well, that the sizer is good. I've not seen any problems besides with this particular brass.

kraigwy · February 1, 2009, 06:10 PM

I reload thousands upon thousands of 38s, all kinds of brass including R-P.

I also load for a Smith Model 52 WC gun. This gun is picky in regards to reloading, Any swelling or buldged cases will cause feeding problems. To solve this I went to the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. This die has a carbide ring on the bottom of the die that sizes the case AFTER ITS CRIMPED. This eliminates the problems you discribed. Regardless of where you crimp, this die will size the case allowing it to chamber.

D. Manley · February 1, 2009, 08:21 PM

This comes up from time to time and more often than not, .38 Special caliber. For one thing, R/P brass is thinner in .38 than most. I've never had a problem on other (9MM, .45, .40) calibers but lots of folks do in .38.

A couple of things you might try/check to see if it helps. First, be certain your sizing die is set low...I do not leave a gap on mine and have it where the shellholder/shellplate "bumps" the die. Second, you might try using a 9MM expanding funnel to put a bit less expansion within the case and still bell the very mouth of the case. Last but not least (and probably best suggestion), consider picking up one of the EGW U-Dies. These are essentially Lee carbide resizing dies, sold by EGW, that are undersized by a thousandth.

bullspotter · February 3, 2009, 01:47 AM

I ran into the same problem with my 40 that you are having, also with r-p brass. The R-P brass sides are thinner then most other brands, This is what i would do, full size a case, make sure the shell holder is touching the bottom of the die when extended, after full sizing the case, measure the inside dia of it. Should be a few thousands smaller then the bullet dia. More then likely you have a oversize die (like i did) and its not making the brass small enough to give you good bullet tension, but with thicker brass it could be fine. YOU NEED BULLET TENSION, you dont want the crimp alone to hold it tight, if you over crimp to get it tighter..... more then likely it will get loser as is smashes the bullet some and the brass will rebound more then the bullet and cause it bo be losser, dont over crimp!!!!I went though alot of hassle to figure this out, I went to a store that sells ammo and measured the outside dia of several loaded rounds and found them to average 4-5 though smaller dia then my sized casses, i called rcbs and they told me to take them back where i bought them and I did, got a brand new set, and all my problems went away. All my R-P bras loaded and shoots great!! Got good tension now!!!

February 1, 2009, 05:06 PM	#1
CMKiefer Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Michigan's Upper Penninsula Posts: 45	R-P Brass bad? (.38 spcl) I just worked up a load for plinking and have some questions. The recipe is: .38 spcl 125 gr plated FP (Berry's) 4.5 gr Bullseye CCI 500 sm pistol primers 1.435 OACL Mixed brass (Winchester, Midway, R-P) While seating bullets I found that while I could "feel" the bullet seating in the Winchester and Midway brass, when I seated in the R-P brass, it felt like I was seating air. Upon inspection, on many of the R-P loads I could actually move the bullet in the casing (as in pull it out by hand). Crimp is relatively light because of the plated bullets. I could not budge the bullet in the Winchester and Midway brass. When placing the bullet for crimp, I noticed I could push it in further on the R-P brass but it would still get "tight". It was after the seating and crimping that the bullet really got loose. Case length is consistent so I weighed up a small sample of each. Here's what I found: R-P Midway Winchester 1 64.9 64.3 64.8 gr 2 64.9 64.4 65.0 gr 3 65.0 64.5 65.0 gr 4 65.5 65.1 65.1 gr 5 66.1 65.4 65.3 gr 6 66.3 65.5 65.3 gr 7 66.4 65.6 65.4 gr 8 66.5 65.6 65.7 gr 9 66.9 66.0 65.8 gr Average 65.8 65.2 65.3 gr Median 66.1 65.4 65.3 gr Mean 2.0 1.7 1.0 gr I know this is a small sampling. I didn't want to spend the day weighing brass. Notice the R-P comes out heavier on average but a wider range of weights. Anybody else have this kind of experience with R-P brass? Any thoughts as to the apparent "weakness" of the casings?

February 1, 2009, 06:10 PM	#4
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I reload thousands upon thousands of 38s, all kinds of brass including R-P. I also load for a Smith Model 52 WC gun. This gun is picky in regards to reloading, Any swelling or buldged cases will cause feeding problems. To solve this I went to the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. This die has a carbide ring on the bottom of the die that sizes the case AFTER ITS CRIMPED. This eliminates the problems you discribed. Regardless of where you crimp, this die will size the case allowing it to chamber. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

February 1, 2009, 08:21 PM	#5
D. Manley Senior Member Join Date: July 13, 2008 Posts: 299	This comes up from time to time and more often than not, .38 Special caliber. For one thing, R/P brass is thinner in .38 than most. I've never had a problem on other (9MM, .45, .40) calibers but lots of folks do in .38. A couple of things you might try/check to see if it helps. First, be certain your sizing die is set low...I do not leave a gap on mine and have it where the shellholder/shellplate "bumps" the die. Second, you might try using a 9MM expanding funnel to put a bit less expansion within the case and still bell the very mouth of the case. Last but not least (and probably best suggestion), consider picking up one of the EGW U-Dies. These are essentially Lee carbide resizing dies, sold by EGW, that are undersized by a thousandth. __________________ *"Old School" ain't all bad...*

February 1, 2009, 05:35 PM	#2
Stick_man Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 241	Are you using new, once-fired, or multi-fired brass? How is your resizing die? Are you belling the brass? How clean is the brass before resizing? Are there any signs of stretching? There are many possibilities. I have had excellent results with the R-P brass. I will reload the .38's 5 or 6 times (sometimes more, sometimes less) before discarding unless I see signs of weakness or cracking.

February 1, 2009, 05:58 PM	#3
CMKiefer Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Michigan's Upper Penninsula Posts: 45	Once fired This brass was resized expanded and seated along with the other brands. Very little flair, just enough to start the bullet. All was tumbled in walnut shell media together. No signs of stress. I assume that since the other brass holds well, that the sizer is good. I've not seen any problems besides with this particular brass.

February 3, 2009, 01:47 AM	#6
bullspotter Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 308	I ran into the same problem with my 40 that you are having, also with r-p brass. The R-P brass sides are thinner then most other brands, This is what i would do, full size a case, make sure the shell holder is touching the bottom of the die when extended, after full sizing the case, measure the inside dia of it. Should be a few thousands smaller then the bullet dia. More then likely you have a oversize die (like i did) and its not making the brass small enough to give you good bullet tension, but with thicker brass it could be fine. YOU NEED BULLET TENSION, you dont want the crimp alone to hold it tight, if you over crimp to get it tighter..... more then likely it will get loser as is smashes the bullet some and the brass will rebound more then the bullet and cause it bo be losser, dont over crimp!!!!I went though alot of hassle to figure this out, I went to a store that sells ammo and measured the outside dia of several loaded rounds and found them to average 4-5 though smaller dia then my sized casses, i called rcbs and they told me to take them back where i bought them and I did, got a brand new set, and all my problems went away. All my R-P bras loaded and shoots great!! Got good tension now!!!