Can anyone identify these?

Darth Kur · January 1, 2011, 05:28 PM

I've had these two guns for years but have only recently dug them out and given them a good looking over. I did have the double barrel worked on a bit, about 15 years ago, to have it tightened up a bit so when closed there would be no gap.
On top of the 12 ga DB is stamped "Laminated Steel". The barrels were originally made to look like Damascus steel but has mostly worn away. On the trigger guard and along the sides are engraved scrolling along with the words "Belgium" and "A. Greener" on both the left and right sides. Barrel length is 30.5 in and over all length is 47 in.

The single barrel gun is a complete mystery. It has a larger bore then the 12 ga. 10 ga perhaps? There are small stamps of letter and symbols at various places all over the gun. On the top of the barrel is stamped "Bushman" with a small arrow pointing away on each side of the word. On the top of the breech door and the base of the barrel are an odd vaguely nail shape, an encircled "I" or "1" and tiny number which I believe is 45. Also at the base of the barrel, on the left side near the stock, is three letters within a circle. A larger Z on top of an L and G underneath. Underneath the breech door is stamped "N89S". At least that's what it looks like as far as I can see. On the metal plate directly behind the hammer is a shield with a "R" inside it. On some of the screw heads is a "M" with a crown over it. On the bottom of the trigger guard are three "G's". Two at the front, one inside a circle and another in a diamond and the last at the back encircled.There's also an "L" at the far back of the breech opening behind the screw. The barrel is 30 in and the gun is 47 in over all.
Sorry about the less than perfect picture quality.
Anyone have any ideas about the origins/identity of either of these?

To see the rest of the pics click here: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...ystery%20Guns/

Pahoo · January 1, 2011, 05:52 PM

That last one is a Zulu shotgun conversion. Do a web search and you will find all kinds of info on them . ...... :barf:

Be Safe !!!

Jim Watson · January 1, 2011, 06:19 PM

A. Greener is a ripoff gun of the late 19th century.

Go in the mercantile and say "I want to buy a Greener shotgun." and the clerk would hand you this one that says "A. Greener" right on the lock.
Problem is, the local expert had recomended you get a Greener shotgun made by W.W. Greener of considerably higher quality. But you don't realize that and go off quite contented... until she starts to loosen up.

The single is a Zulu type. When the breechloader was obsoleting the muzzleloader and armies were looking for ways to modernize on tight budgets by converting their rifle muskets, we got the Trapdoor, England got the Snider, and the French got the Tabatiere. When the Tabatieres were obsoleted by the Gras bolt action, many of them were reamed out to smoothbore, the stocks cut back, and sold on many markets worldwide.

Hawg · January 1, 2011, 06:37 PM

Laminated steel is twist steel, just a slightly different process from damascus.
A. Greener was the son of W.W. Greener. He was not a successor to Greener Arms; Albert moved to America and did make a few guns but he made them here not in Belgium. A real A. Greener is worth a pretty penny. Unfortunately yours is as was stated a cheap Belgian knockoff. If you have any doubts you can contact Greener at [email protected]

Jim Watson · January 1, 2011, 07:00 PM

Forgot about ol' Albert Greener. He was a son of William Greener, therefore the brother of W.W. Greener. The current managing director Graham Greener says he sought his fortune in San Francisco while his other brother J.H. went to New Zealand. I have never seen any mention of anybody in the Greener family selling guns from Belgium.

Hawg · January 1, 2011, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Forgot about ol' Albert Greener. He was a son of William Greener, therefore the brother of W.W. Greener.

Yeah, you're right on that.

Darth Kur · January 1, 2011, 10:03 PM

Fascinating information. I looked up both and found a few references of Zulu guns and a little bit about Greener and knock-offs. It's great to finally know more about these two. A big thank you to Pahoo, Jim and Hawg. I appreciate it.
The zulu one I'll not dream of ever firing but I was told by the gunsmith that "firmed up" the double barrel that it was safe to fire low powered rounds with it. What are your opinions on this? Would I need to find black powder rounds or are there other acceptable shells to be utilized?

Hawg · January 1, 2011, 10:09 PM

The chambers are most likely 2 1/2". I would stick to bp loads only. I cut off modern shells behind the crimp and end up with about a 2" shell after roll crimping. Or better would be Magtech brass shells. http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4675.html

Jim Watson · January 1, 2011, 10:21 PM

I think the guy who "firmed it up" is nuts. He probably just peened the lugs to make it feel tighter, he sure didn't make the action or especially the barrels any stronger.
I got cured of shooting the old built up barrels by living next door to the area repair gunsmith. He had a hammer shotgun hanging on the wall with a plug about 2 inches long blown out of the left barrel... about where your left hand would be.
Black powder would be less dangerous than the lightest nitro, if you just must.

Darth Kur · January 2, 2011, 09:54 AM

Well, I don't have to fire it really I just would have liked to be able to at some point here and there. But if it's not safe then it's certainly not worth it. Plus I don't want to damage the gun either. I have another old double barrel shotgun of similar vintage. I'll have to take a few pics of that one and get some input on that one.

Hawg · January 2, 2011, 02:49 PM

I'd find out what he did to tighten it up. If he peened the lugs or hinge pin it should still be ok for a while but will eventually shoot loose again. If he replaced the hinge pin which is all most loose guns need then it should be fine for many years. If the barrel moves up and down it's the locking lugs but most guns compensate for worn lugs by the release lever moving further to the left as it wears. If the barrel moves side to side it's the hinge pin.

Darth Kur · January 2, 2011, 05:09 PM

Hawg, I'll try to find out. I haven't lived there in many years and have no idea if he is even in business any longer.

Here's another relic. It too has the swirled damacus patterns and is stamped "Laminated Steel". It has a very interesting latch to open the breech, as can be seen in the pictures below. Other than the stamp between the barrels the only other markings are underneath the right barrel on the frame, only visible when the breech is open. There's the letter "M" with a small bell on top and the same thorn like image that's on the Zulu gun. Does this designate the same maker for both or is it some common image from that time period that stands for something else? The hammer on the right side is lose and keeps falling off. What type of adhesive should be used to fasten it? The pictures make the gun look horribly rusted but it's not. This is just the brown damacus patterns. Does this gun look familiar to anyone?

Jim Watson · January 6, 2011, 11:54 AM

The foreend lever is an offshoot of the old Lefacheux pinfire "single grip" action.

The "small bell" (really a crown) over M is a Belgian inspector's mark.
The "thorn" (really a tower or obelisk) is the Belgian perron proof mark.
Shows manufacture sometime between 1853 and 1877.

So the gun was made in Belgium by somebody who was not proud enough of his work to put his name or a trademark on it.

Hammers are not held on by adhesive, the hole in the end of the hammer tumbler that looks like a screw hole, is one.

January 1, 2011, 05:28 PM	#1
Darth Kur Junior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 14	Can anyone identify these? I've had these two guns for years but have only recently dug them out and given them a good looking over. I did have the double barrel worked on a bit, about 15 years ago, to have it tightened up a bit so when closed there would be no gap. On top of the 12 ga DB is stamped "Laminated Steel". The barrels were originally made to look like Damascus steel but has mostly worn away. On the trigger guard and along the sides are engraved scrolling along with the words "Belgium" and "A. Greener" on both the left and right sides. Barrel length is 30.5 in and over all length is 47 in. The single barrel gun is a complete mystery. It has a larger bore then the 12 ga. 10 ga perhaps? There are small stamps of letter and symbols at various places all over the gun. On the top of the barrel is stamped "Bushman" with a small arrow pointing away on each side of the word. On the top of the breech door and the base of the barrel are an odd vaguely nail shape, an encircled "I" or "1" and tiny number which I believe is 45. Also at the base of the barrel, on the left side near the stock, is three letters within a circle. A larger Z on top of an L and G underneath. Underneath the breech door is stamped "N89S". At least that's what it looks like as far as I can see. On the metal plate directly behind the hammer is a shield with a "R" inside it. On some of the screw heads is a "M" with a crown over it. On the bottom of the trigger guard are three "G's". Two at the front, one inside a circle and another in a diamond and the last at the back encircled.There's also an "L" at the far back of the breech opening behind the screw. The barrel is 30 in and the gun is 47 in over all. Sorry about the less than perfect picture quality. Anyone have any ideas about the origins/identity of either of these? To see the rest of the pics click here: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...ystery%20Guns/

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January 1, 2011, 05:52 PM	#2
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	That last one is a Zulu shotgun conversion. Do a web search and you will find all kinds of info on them . ...... :barf: Be Safe !!!

January 1, 2011, 06:19 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	A. Greener is a ripoff gun of the late 19th century. Go in the mercantile and say "I want to buy a Greener shotgun." and the clerk would hand you this one that says "A. Greener" right on the lock. Problem is, the local expert had recomended you get a Greener shotgun made by W.W. Greener of considerably higher quality. But you don't realize that and go off quite contented... until she starts to loosen up. The single is a Zulu type. When the breechloader was obsoleting the muzzleloader and armies were looking for ways to modernize on tight budgets by converting their rifle muskets, we got the Trapdoor, England got the Snider, and the French got the Tabatiere. When the Tabatieres were obsoleted by the Gras bolt action, many of them were reamed out to smoothbore, the stocks cut back, and sold on many markets worldwide.

January 1, 2011, 06:37 PM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Laminated steel is twist steel, just a slightly different process from damascus. A. Greener was the son of W.W. Greener. He was not a successor to Greener Arms; Albert moved to America and did make a few guns but he made them here not in Belgium. A real A. Greener is worth a pretty penny. Unfortunately yours is as was stated a cheap Belgian knockoff. If you have any doubts you can contact Greener at [email protected]

January 1, 2011, 07:00 PM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	Forgot about ol' Albert Greener. He was a son of William Greener, therefore the brother of W.W. Greener. The current managing director Graham Greener says he sought his fortune in San Francisco while his other brother J.H. went to New Zealand. I have never seen any mention of anybody in the Greener family selling guns from Belgium.

January 1, 2011, 10:03 PM	#7
Darth Kur Junior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 14	Fascinating information. I looked up both and found a few references of Zulu guns and a little bit about Greener and knock-offs. It's great to finally know more about these two. A big thank you to Pahoo, Jim and Hawg. I appreciate it. The zulu one I'll not dream of ever firing but I was told by the gunsmith that "firmed up" the double barrel that it was safe to fire low powered rounds with it. What are your opinions on this? Would I need to find black powder rounds or are there other acceptable shells to be utilized?

January 1, 2011, 10:09 PM	#8
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The chambers are most likely 2 1/2". I would stick to bp loads only. I cut off modern shells behind the crimp and end up with about a 2" shell after roll crimping. Or better would be Magtech brass shells. http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4675.html

January 1, 2011, 10:21 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	I think the guy who "firmed it up" is nuts. He probably just peened the lugs to make it feel tighter, he sure didn't make the action or especially the barrels any stronger. I got cured of shooting the old built up barrels by living next door to the area repair gunsmith. He had a hammer shotgun hanging on the wall with a plug about 2 inches long blown out of the left barrel... about where your left hand would be. Black powder would be less dangerous than the lightest nitro, if you just must.

January 2, 2011, 09:54 AM	#10
Darth Kur Junior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 14	Well, I don't have to fire it really I just would have liked to be able to at some point here and there. But if it's not safe then it's certainly not worth it. Plus I don't want to damage the gun either. I have another old double barrel shotgun of similar vintage. I'll have to take a few pics of that one and get some input on that one.

January 2, 2011, 02:49 PM	#11
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I'd find out what he did to tighten it up. If he peened the lugs or hinge pin it should still be ok for a while but will eventually shoot loose again. If he replaced the hinge pin which is all most loose guns need then it should be fine for many years. If the barrel moves up and down it's the locking lugs but most guns compensate for worn lugs by the release lever moving further to the left as it wears. If the barrel moves side to side it's the hinge pin.

January 2, 2011, 05:09 PM	#12
Darth Kur Junior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 14	Hawg, I'll try to find out. I haven't lived there in many years and have no idea if he is even in business any longer. Here's another relic. It too has the swirled damacus patterns and is stamped "Laminated Steel". It has a very interesting latch to open the breech, as can be seen in the pictures below. Other than the stamp between the barrels the only other markings are underneath the right barrel on the frame, only visible when the breech is open. There's the letter "M" with a small bell on top and the same thorn like image that's on the Zulu gun. Does this designate the same maker for both or is it some common image from that time period that stands for something else? The hammer on the right side is lose and keeps falling off. What type of adhesive should be used to fasten it? The pictures make the gun look horribly rusted but it's not. This is just the brown damacus patterns. Does this gun look familiar to anyone?

January 6, 2011, 11:54 AM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	The foreend lever is an offshoot of the old Lefacheux pinfire "single grip" action. The "small bell" (really a crown) over M is a Belgian inspector's mark. The "thorn" (really a tower or obelisk) is the Belgian perron proof mark. Shows manufacture sometime between 1853 and 1877. So the gun was made in Belgium by somebody who was not proud enough of his work to put his name or a trademark on it. Hammers are not held on by adhesive, the hole in the end of the hammer tumbler that looks like a screw hole, is one.