Minimum Trigger Pull for Carry Gun?

[John 242]

Carter, thank you for responding to my post, I appreciate it. I always welcome an opportunity to learn form someone else.

Don't romanticize how a defensive shoot would go down.
Point 1: The most common scenario involves a shot at a VERY close range, usually several feet. If you missed at that range, it wouldn't be because of trigger pull. You would miss because you're scared out of your wits, but you're supposed to train for that so that you can keep a clear head.

Romanticizing isn’t something I’m often accused of. I’ll have to tell my wife, she’ll get a kick out of it.
I agree that most gunfights occur at ‘close range’… 1-5 yards, but not all.
I will also agree that at contact distance, the need for accuracy is trumped by speed. What I don’t understand is why you dismiss the possibility of taking a shot that requires trigger control? Is it unrealistic (or romantic) to think that we might have to shoot someone from across a room, a couple of car lengths away, across a lawn, etc?

Point 2: I'd like to hear of any defensive shooting on record where the potential victim (armed) decided the outcome by shooting the big toe off of a bad guy hunkered down behind a barricade. That's Annie Oakley talk.

LOL, that’s funny, but not exactly what I meant. I was thinking more along the lines of having to shoot a guy that’s firing from around a corner, or over some cover. You know, a partially exposed target… but since you mentioned shooting toes off, if a guy is shooting at me and all I can see is a foot or hand, well that foot or hand gets shot, assuming of course that it is reasonably safe to do so. YMMV.
Oh, by the way, there have been plenty of guys who gave up after receiving minor wounds because they didn’t have the mindset to continue fighting after they were hurt. Others have fought on despite being mortally wounded.

Point 3: If you don't like the trigger pull of a particular pistol, then you need to get a different gun DESIGNED to work at a lighter trigger pull. All guns are "designed" to work the way they come out of the box, and modifying them very often leads to unreliability. Modifying competition guns or range guns is fine and fun, but messing with a defensive pistol is not something I would consider.
For example, I never did like the DA first shot trigger pull on my S&W 6906. But I carried it because, at the time, it was the safest choice for the way I liked to carry (chambered with hammer down and safety NOT engaged).

I think it’s fair to say that some guys go too far with trigger modifications. I am no expert, but I would think that a reputable gunsmith can reduce a 1911s trigger pull down from 8 lbs to a reasonable 4.5 lbs, without creating unreliability. I would assume that a reasonable lightening and smoothing of a DA revolver’s trigger pull would not affect its reliability either. I think the key word is “reasonable”. There is no doubt that if taken to extremes, reliability (and safety) can suffer.

Then along came the XD pistols, and I instantly fell in love. At about 5 pounds trigger pull on first and subsequent shots, it is exactly what I've been looking for, and with no heavy first shot nor any silly safety to futz with. Additionally, I shoot standing, off-hand groups with my two XD's (9SubC and .45/4") as tight as I do with my 1911's. Yup, that surprised me too.

Good deal. XDs seem to be fine pistols and your trigger pull weight is probably about the same as my stock 1911. When I think of ‘bad’ triggers, I think of my issue M9. With lots of practice perhaps I could master the initial DA pull, but to be honest, I would be hard pressed to make even a slightly difficult shot with the first round. Same holds for my S&W Mod 27. I find heavy DA trigger pulls to be very difficult to master. Again, with lots of DA practice I could probably equal what I can do with my stock 1911, but unfortunately I don’t have the time or willpower to do so.

While I wouldn't personally choose to carry a pistol with a 12 pound trigger pull (any more ), I never doubted that it would be a great defensive pistol if I ever needed it. I know I could count on my adrenlin giving me the strength I needed when the time came.
The other part of that equation is that trigger pulls set too light are even more dangerous because the same adrenlin that will allow me to quickly and efficiently pull a 12 pound trigger will also, combined with fear and panic, urge me to acquire the trigger and squeeze it too soon while drawing the weapon. I don't think I could bear hearing the laughter of the BG as he watches me look down at the hole in my foot.

Again, I will agree that there is a point where triggers are ’too light’. Me… 4lbs sounds good, but hey, what do I know. Some guys are better shooters than others. I find that I can not shoot a gun with a heavy DA trigger accurately at even moderate ranges (10m or so). If I can’t shoot the gun accurately on a static, peaceful range; I wouldn’t expect to do well with the same gun in a gunfight, in which the BG may be moving, partially behind cover, shooting back, etc.

I don’t want to get into a ‘fine motor skills’ debate. I will say that experiences differ. I am far from being an expert, but I have come to believe that our physiological and psychological reactions in a gunfight are situational to an extent, and are largely affected by the type of training we have received.

What confuses me is that many believe that they will either; a) not need to make an accurate shot because most gunfights are close, or b) that they will be incapable of taking a difficult shot because of nerves, adrenalin, etc. It seems that a lot of people seem to ‘know’ how their gunfight will be. I wish I had their crystal ball.
There is no doubt that adrenalin, and fear will have its effects, but when people talk about panic, I have to wonder what they are setting themselves up for.
If you panic and squeeze your trigger as you are drawing, then 5 or 12 lbs is irrelevant. You are going to shoot yourself (unless your safety is on). The key word is ‘panic’. Panic will get you killed regardless.

I've been a "gun nut" since I was 8 years old, and I have done some really stupid at-home gunsmithing when I was younger (and ruined some really nice pieces at that ).
I'm now much older and smarter, and while I am capable of doing some proper tuning on guns, I have never even considered screwing around with any of my self defense weapons, nor will I let anyone else do so either unless it's a necessary repair or maintenance issue done by a factory technician.
That's all I'm trying to say.
Carter

You are well within your rights to think and do as you choose. I really enjoy thought provoking topics such as this.
I may not agree with you Carter, but I respect where you are coming from.
Please take care,
J. F. Tremblay

[bacardisteve]

i have a 3lb trigger pull on my g17. but its a target gun. on my carry weapons i leave them all stock for two reasons. reliability and lawyers. if i have have to take down a bg my weapon will certainly be taken and it will be a while b4 i get it back. a lawyer would have a field day if you modified internals on a gun and if the jury belives your weapon is unsafe you will never get it back and will probably face a lawsuit.

[Para Bellum]

A 3.5 trigger on a carry gun with no manual safety seems safe to you?

yep.

You might as well carry a 1911 with a rubber band over the grip saftey with one in the pipe, hammer back, and the saftey off. It would amount to the same thing.

nope. 1911s are too heavy. I prefer Glocks.

I hope your holster completely covers the trigger-guard!

Of course it does. I wouldn't carry any other type of holster.

regarding the law:
being a (business-) lawyer myself I see a greater risk in missing my target and hitting somebody else at longer distances due to a heavy trigger. A jury decides whether you were justified to discharge your gun or not.

regarding the usefulness:
immidiate incapacitation requires very accurate shooting. And many defense situations do anyway (read Cirillo...). And I am much more accurate and fast with light triggers...

[Mikeyboy]

Opinions on light trigger vs Heavy trigger pulls for your CCW is one thing. If you modify your CCW and have an AD and kill someone, now that is a different story. You can kiss your money, house, car, and gun collection goodbye. From a liability standpoint you will not have a leg to stand on, since you modified the Glock well below the Manufactures specs. Having an ultra light trigger pull on a target gun that will only be at the range or in your home, the likelyhood of having an AD and hitting yourself or some bystander is a heck of a lot less than with your CCW that you carry with you 24/7. Eventually you will make a mistake at the worse possible time.