Gun Ettiquette, is it waning??

[ms6852]

Me and a couple of my Army buddies (retired), went to the shooting range the other day. This is not a range where we are members but thought we would try it out anyway.

When we went to our stalls the Range Officer was very nice and talkative and wanted to know what we were shooting as he said he was a collector of 1911's. So we showed him the six that we had with us in our cases, which we all cleared by removing empty magazines and locking slide to the rear, ensuring that there were no chambered rounds.

He in turn was very proud and well deserved to show me his beautiful Les Baer 1911, the problem I had with this was that he just handed it to me awkwardly in Condition 1. As a I child I was always taught to never hand a loaded weapon to anyone, so I found this to be a little strange since he was the range officer.

Am I being to anal retentive about this? I do carry in Condition 1, but I never let anyone inspect my weapon without me dropping the magazine, locking slide to the rear and emptying the chamber. Ok I'm ready to get flamed, let me hear your thoughts.

[manta49]

He should have cleared the firearm and asked you to confirm it was clear before handing it to you, for his own safety and yours.

[Skans]

Bad form on the RO's part. But, would I make a big deal of this when the RO is being friendly? No, I wouldn't. Just be careful!

What does bother me even a bit more than what the RO did is that he is sitting / walking around behind me (behind the firing line) with a loaded gun, especially when he's handing it to others to look at. Now, if there was no one else at the range, then I wouldn't be as concerned.

[Kvon2]

Firearms are becoming such a taboo topic it seems no one has a clue anymore.

Surprising from a range officer though.

[TailGator]

I understand your discomfort. This guy was a safety officer and didn't handle a firearm in an acceptable manner. If someone else at the range needs to learn, I am willing to patiently teach, but I am not sure what I would do if the RO was unsafe - probably leave.

[Blindstitch]

I'm thinking that due to what you took to the range he assumed you would handle it safely and you knew how.

On the other hand most ranges I know of would have sent him packing. Many people these day are really uptight.

During a cease fire one of the Range Officers at the range I go to makes sure every uncased gun has a chamber flag in it and in an almost OCD way makes sure they are pointed perfectly down range. One degree off is not to be tolerated. Maybe he just has a thing for touching guns.

[Sevens]

Honestly, I think he's one genuinely horrendous range officer for that act and I also wonder about whoever placed him in the position of range officer.

I don't believe being a range officer is the easiest job in the world and it takes a delicate mix of tact and and firmness, but a RO handing someone a loaded handgun in that manner is completely unacceptable while he is actively filling the role as RO on that range. I find it quite surprising.

As for whether or not etiquette is waning?
First, I don't etiquette is the word I would use for this situation. I would simply call it safety training and awareness. I would also not try to figure out (generally) if this is better or worse than it ever has been across the board from this one particular instance.

In my experience, it's DARN difficult to "teach an old dog new tricks" and this is why it is paramount to get to brand new shooters very early. I believe if you get a chance with them when they are very, very new and actively soaking things up like a sponge, if you teach them the rules for which NONE better have ever been written and you also show them the value in these, you have a chance at a life-long good guy.

These folks that have been handling guns for years or decades get downright offended if you even casually or nicely point out a failure. And it's no small thing. This is extremely frustrating because far too much is at stake here.

[T. O'Heir]

"...the shooting range..." Commercial? Amazing the number of places that will allow unqualified people to run things. Shop's(assumption) liability insurance must be staggering.

[CommandoX]

This all goes right on par with the post I made yesterday. Not surprised to read this but glad to see it.

I have found through hair raising experiences that not all ROs are made the same. For the most part, the older the ROs are that I have encountered, the better they are at following procedure and etiquette. *My Experience Only*

I see the most slip ups at the range from the younger ROs. I can't say I know why but that just seems to be the case for me. Of course, there are exceptions on both sides of that as well. I'm sure that it is no coincidence that more than 90% of the ROs at my range were military or police.

I have had many ROs hand me a gun to try but always within the confines of my shooting station, in front of me and never loaded n' ready.

[ms6852]

In the military I pulled my share of duty as a Range Safety Officer and must say just before my retirement I processed thousands of troops to get them ready for Desert Shield without an incident. I had a run in with the Brigade Officer who wanted to speed things up and I gave him three options , to relieve me of my post, to get out of my tower, or to let me do things my way. He got out of my tower.

I found out the the owner of this range is ex military, and his partner is an ex LEO, and as much as I liked the range as there is a certain amount of laxity, there is still that edge of concern as their range officer is set off to one side and seems to be there just to ensure everyone has a receipt and has paid to use the range. I would still enjoy an extra set of eyes to watch for safety violations that could occur by inexperienced shooters, or someone like myself having a senior moment.

[Minorcan]

I agree that the normally accepted safety and handling practices are not being followed at many ranges. However, I don't really think it's a lack of etiquette. I think a lot of people have gotten in to shooting without having ever learned the safety rules most longtime shooters practice without even thinking because they were drilled in to us from the start. I was forced to use a cap gun as a kid as safely as if it was a real gun. When I transitioned to real guns the safety practices were already a habit.

Now I would question how the RO got posted if he has such bad habits. Was he even observed or jus interviewed. Also, I have seen a few people loose their previous good habits as old age approached. Hold on, I'm 60 so I resemble that remark as well as many others but at some point I may also become unsafe and I hope someone will approach me in a respectful way to give me a wake up call.

[Moonglum]

1. Did you take the weapon when he handed it to you ?

2. How did you hand it back?

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Moonglum:

1. Did you take the weapon when he handed it to you ?

2. How did you hand it back?

Kinda where I'm at with this. Like the OP, I was taught to clear a gun before handing it to someone(or at least open the action as in a handing the gun across the fence in a hunting scenario). I was also taught not to take a gun from someone before I knew it was cleared or had the action open. Seems they always went hand in hand. You yourself are the one responsible for your safety as well as the safety of others. Taking a gun from someone knowing it has not been cleared or the action opened is just as irresponsible as handing one over in the same condition. Just because the RO was lax, doesn't mean you should be. Asking politely to have the gun cleared first would have been my route.

[Sevens]

While I would admit or agree that accepting a gun from someone that has not been cleared doesn't give them the most vivid example of their wrongdoing-- I still do exactly that every time simply because it is immediately obvious to me that clearly, I am the person in the room that is most qualified to make that firearm safe.

If I don't know them or know their skill level or their attention to safety and THAT is the example they offer then YES, you better believe that I am going to take it when offered and clear it.

The lesson begins AFTER the loaded handgun is made safe -- I am certainly not going to watch, wait and HOPE they don't fumble it and shoot someone.

[Lohman446]

Ok I may have been taught differently than a lot of you have been and maybe I am offending people when I do it.

I was always taught the person handing you the firearm verified it was clear and then handed the firearm to you.

You then repeated the procedure of verifying it was clear.

By repeating the procedure am I now stepping out of etiquette?

[zukiphile]

By repeating the procedure am I now stepping out of etiquette?

Only if you don't hold your pinkey finger out. That's much fancier.

[Erno86]

If you guys were in the shooting stall, and the RSO handed a cocked and locked on safety, along with the muzzle of the 1911 pointed downrange when he handed it to you; while the range was still hot --- I don't see a safety issue with that kind of range scenario --- As long as the RSO is qualified to open carry/concealed loaded pistol on range property.

[vito]

If this is the worst safety violation you ever encounter at a gun range then count yourself lucky.

[Sevens]

^While I agree with what you said here (and the larger point you are making), when it is the RSO doing it, it's an idiot move by an RSO especially to someone he does not know on a range he is actively working.

[Jim567]

The only time I am comfortable handing someone a loaded weapon is when we are both on a hot firing line facing the target and the recipient is prepared to shoot. That, with a safe handoff, safety on or un chambered..
Obviously emergency/ combat situations would differ.

[SIGSHR]

Remember how few shooters receive proper instruction in firearms handling today. And military service is not such a great place to learn. I received very little firearms training in my Army years 1967-1971 and I recall Jeff Cooper writing that his correspondents in the Sandbox were appalled at the careless weapons handling they saw. I note that at a new range that opened up not far from me they require you to watch a video on range etiquette and safety before you can use their range for the first time.

[ms6852]

When the RO handed me his gun I moved into my stall, dropped the magazine and placed it on top of the towel I have my own guns on. I than cleared the chambered round. I inspected his gun pointed at the targets and at his request dried fired a couple of times. He was really proud of his gun. It was really nice. I congratulated him on his purchase, and than handed him the magazine and than this gun. I told him that I never hand a loaded weapon to anyone as it was instilled by my parents that it was good practice. I thanked him for letting me check it out. I hope that my subliminal message will sink in.

[Jim Watson]

The person overseeing a commercial range is a "range safety officer" only by courtesy. There is no training or certification required, he may just be a clerk at a FFL business.
As the referee at the boxing match says, "protect yourself at all times."

I shoot mostly IDPA these days, with history in IPSC, USPSA, ATA, IHMSA, and NRA.
Competitive shooting is under better safety control than a lane rental facility. It helps that we are all doing the same thing and are expected to know the rules and pay attention.

[tirod]

I've been the Range Safety Officer in my unit and have been in the ranks shooting on military ranges for 22 years.

In larger groups safety is a concern.

Now, taking that for what is meant, how do you conduct operations on a range which is live at all times with loaded guns in the possession of all participants, including instructors?

I shoot at a public range which has no RO and I find it interesting that some come with guns in cases only, only load them on the line, and then return them unloaded to the case when leaving. Yet it's a CCW state and I brought at least one of mine in a pocket or belt holster - loaded. I leave with it loaded after shooting it. I carry it loaded on me down range and shoot other guns with it on me loaded.

Well, think about it. Got up in the morning, put on my pants, put on the gun, when about the daily business armed, like, buying more ammo at the store on the way to the range, filled up the car armed, drove it armed to the range and unloaded the gear armed.

And once there I'm supposed to unload it and point it safely downrange at all times. Any gun I'm shooting empty gets that treatment for the benefit of others around me - once it's out of the holster. Otherwise, no. If i'm shooting a rifle that day, the pistol stays put. And likely nobody knows.

It's a study in contrasts, and when you think about it becomes amusing.

[Pigeon.knight]

I don't think it's unreasonable to clear your season before allowing someone else to inspect it. Really your ensuring that no one gets hurt by accidental discharge.