asp baton

[tommygun45]

They don't exactly seem like they're skull crackers or anything

Take this for what it's worth, A good friend was working an "unarmed" security job watching a half million per unit subdivison under constructon. One fine night His partner is out on a round and stumbles in to two guys stealing building materials. The two chuckle heads go from petty larceny to assault when they jumped my friends partner. Long story short The security guard pulls his ASP and WHACK, WHACK down go two bad guys, one with a skull fracture. A nice round one about the size and shape of the little nob on the tip of an ASP. My friend quit that gig a few short days later.

[Blackhawk]

Thanks, guys!

That all makes perfect sense. Also seems that it would be very effective in whacking joints, hands, and whatever could use it. Also seems that a relatively heavy tip on a rigid shaft would be easily directed and accelerated by quick wrist action. No wonder ROTL carried one....

[Hayden]

"I don't think that security companies have been given the option of licensing guards to carry them or not (if anyone out there works security let me know if you have that option or not)."

A few that I work with carry them here in TN.
Seems like a good idea to have another less than lethal force option. FWIW a good cs/oc spray is also something to look into.

regards

[Gomez]

Generally speaking, anytime you carry a club, bat, stick, and whack someone about the head and shoulders with it, it's going to be considered "lethal force". The way law enforcement can get aways with carrying a stick and whacking people with it, is by having "appropriate training" which documents how to use the stick as a "less lethal" tool. ASP does this by structuring their program around the concept of "striking to the center of mass of the offending appendage" and speciffcly avoiding strikes to the head/neck area UNLESS the situation ahs evolved into a lethal force situation, then, of course, it's fair game. The ASP program teaches two conceptual angles which were drawn from the Filipino martial arts. (Angle 1 & 2 in alot of systems, Downward 45 Left and Downward 45 Right). PPCT accomplishes the same goal by teaching strikes to motor points/nerve clusters in the limbs. Monadnock teaches horizontal sriking drawn from Asian martial arts.

A quick and dirty introduction to how to legally use a baton can often be gotten by finding out who provides training for your local security companies. If security guards in your state can be certiifed to carry an ASP, most of those trainers with let Joe Citizen take the same class for the same fee (usually pretty cheap. I paid $40 when I was living in Eugene, OR for my first ASP certification.) For more extensive training, look around and see if anyone is teaching Filipino martial arts in your area.

And, then, of course, there's always professional training geared towards the armed citizen, such as offered by Options for Personal Security and Insights Training Center.


Gomez

[pbarrick]

The ASP baton, especially the airweight models, are excellent tools. The Angle 1 and Angle 2 of the ASP curriculum is a viable system that's simple to use under stress and easy to retain.

Training with the tools you plan to carry is very important. If you're going to follow Teddy Roosevelt's advice and carry a big [ASP baton], it helps to know how to swing it efficiently.

Professional training is another important aspect. It helps to be able to articulate in a court of law that you weren't whacking the guy in the knee but aiming for his common peroneal nerve when he moved toward you and got whacked in the knee.

In the words of my esteemed colleague, Mr. Gomez, "And, then, of course, there's always professional training geared towards the armed citizen, such as offered by Options for Personal Security and Insights Training Center."

Jim Grover's Combatives series is another good source of information on how to utilize a collapsible baton. Also, Kelly Worden's Tactical Baton video set and his Connecting the Systems videos are good to round out your knowledge of stick applications.

[fastbolt]

While I keep a short ASP in the trunk of my work car, I seldom carry it anymore. I just don't like it. Period. If I want to use a baton, I'd much rather use my wooden baton, as it's capable of many more strikes, blocks, immobilizations, etc ...

The limitations of ASP use ... to me ... is that it's primarily intended for use as either an unextended yawara stick-type, less-than-lethal weapon ... or, as an extended striking weapon useful primarily in a manner which relies exclusively on "tip speed" and tip impact focus.

While I seldom lack something capable of being employed as a yawara-type defensive instrument ... they make some neat pocket-sized lights strong enough to double for this, after all ... the ASP isn't balanced as well as it might be for this role.

While I was never a fan of the tonfa for L/E use, many agencies adapted a modified tonfa design, later named the PR-24, quite happily to their needs, and some few agencies even employed nunchaku. The last time I carried a nunchaku, they were years away from being illegal in this state, and I primarily carried them in rural recreation & hiking areas ... more for the constant opportunity to practice away from the dojo, than for any real defensive use. It annoyed me when they made them illegal outside my house or my dojo, but that's all ...

While I personally couldn't care less if an otherwise law-abiding citizen in CA carried an ASP for defense, the legislature has decreed they are dangerous weapons, and feels otherwise ... so the law prohibits this practice by "civilians". If you use it, while carrying it illegally, you're not only going to possibly face the issue of being made to appear prepared to "kill" someone by deliberately and feloniously carrying a prohibited dangerous weapon in public ... but you're going to face the risk of losing your right to possess ALL weapons in the future, depending on your conviction and sentence.

I'm sorry that I don't like the ASP, but that I'm allowed to carry it, and am issued one ... while those of you not in L/E that DO like it, can't carry one ... but I didn't make the laws.

[Drjones]

What say you?

I say that they are VERY cool, very fun, and very effective weapons.

HOWEVER, you live in CA also, I see. Carrying such a device on your person is a FELONY. Carrying a concealed firearm without a permit is a MISDEMEANOR. They do have the option of charging it as a felony, but that is not usually the case. (Provided you don't have any priors and such)

That said, I say ditch the baton and keep totin' (or START) totin' your GUN!

[pbarrick]

Unless we're talking about the 16" ASP models (which don't feel quite like a stick in the hand), ASPs are just collapsible sticks. They give the same benefit as a comparably-sized wooden stick with less of a tendency to break and the added benefit of collapsing for carry.

As a civilian, I wouldn't worry about restraint techniques. Striking is what a stick is best used for in a self-defense situation. Grappling also ties me up with one person when the likelihood of having to strike someone else quickly (multiple attackers) is great.

ASPs are useful tools and they work well...

[igor]

... the ASPs belong to the "dangerous edged (!) weapons" category (as a piece of hollow metal = pipe). No-no for concealed carry: but for LEOs and, since new private security branch legislation was passed last Tuesday, legal for trained security personnel as well. I'm getting one for my car door pocket... the tonfa takes too much space anyway.

BTW, I used to have a collapsible Monadnock PR-24 and broke the damn thing in two _practicing_. Stay away from them.

[krept]

No kidding, can you give details? I thought that Monadnocks were at LEAST as strong as the ASPs.

[old_yout]

I've never really worried about carrying mine around. Way I see it, and I've had some corroborration by the guys at the range, if what I'm doing is legal then nobody's going to bother too much about it.

[Drjones]

The PR-24 is nothing like an ASP. The PR-24 is the standard cop baton you see all the cops with; the one with the perpendicular handle. It is NOT a collapsible. Though they do make collapsible 24's.

All collapsible batons are steel, save for the ASP "airweights" which have at least one shaft that is aluminum.

I have heard of a lot of bent ASP's, none with the Monadnocks. Plus they have the cool "Autolock" which allows you to collapse the baton with the push of a button!

[igor]

... that I broke was a collapsible PR-24 with the crutch lock. Synthetic 90 deg handle, metal tube part and synthetic end part. Bad design altogether, the weighting not ideal and yes, the synthetic end snapped in two with a quite normal horizontal thigh/mitt hit.

Don't know if they're still around, I purchased mine in the earlier '90's. The crutch button lock was no good either, the button started eating up the metal around it with just modest practice amounts.

[fastbolt]

Hkmp5sd ...

I ask myself why I still live here almost every week. Of course, the primary answer is that this is where my job is, and one of my children are still living, as well as my aging mother ...

Since I'm only a couple of years away from retirement I'm no longer interested in lateraling over to another agency in another state. I just want to retire and get away from here ...

We're seeing more and more of our people retiring and leaving the state, much more than it used to be. Now that the income tax laws were changed, and CA can't still take state tax on your retirement if you live out of state, there's no financial penalty to leave.

It's also amazing how unaware many folks are, even in L/E, of how different our laws are than most anywhere else. In some ways, leaving CA to visit another state can be almost like visiting another country ... but one with more freedoms.

I grew up here in CA, after my parents moved here when I was still a toddler, so I remember how the laws used to be when I was growing up ... which is a far cry from nowadays. When I retire and leave, I'll have spent about 50 years in this state. That's got to be more than enough to get some time off for good behavior ...

Sorry this has nothing to do with the ASP thread, but I felt like answering your rhetorical question ...

[eyeballz]

Can these ASP batons be used for anything besides whacking? Such as Holds, armbars, wristlock type stuff?

[Gomez]

eyeballz:

Yes, they can. The Monadnock training program goes into their whole control methodologies with their MEB (Monadnock Expandable Baton) course. ASP does not teach or reccomend that impact weapons be used as control devices. I don't either. Sticks are designed for hitting. From a non-leo perspective, I cannot envision a situation where it'd be appropriate for someone to attempt a controlling technique.

[eyeballz]

Oh Ok Cool.

[mons-meg]

I was taught takedowns and submission locks as part of the single stick curriculum at my Kali school. Even after reaching an "intermediate" level, I would not trust myself to try them. Probably in a real world situation, one should utilize the "largo mano" tachniques of striking at an opponent's hands and wrists. I see the ASP or similar baton excelling in this role, since the heavy, narrow end is likely to fracture bones in the hand, which while certainly not lethal, will mroe than likely make the BG decide to stop trying to stick you with his knife, etc.

[krept]

I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that LEO and federal 1811s were being taught wrist locks and joint holds that can turn into projections much like Aikido does. If so, these technically should naturally translate into the same techniques as a jo, for example, right? Not that I espouse them, but imagine if the BG did get ahold of the ASP for some reason and you have a perfect opportunity for a #1 or #2 lock (ikkyo, nikyo? i don remember) or mini projection.

I'm sure there are some creative ways to use the ASP. IIRC, the Gracies have been working with LEOs in California - I'd think that they would realize LEOs frequently find themselves deploying sticks, etc and having them grabbed from them. As a part of retention, let's say that previous experience tells you to go right for rear mount to choke or arm restraint before cuffing. I'm sure the ASP would come in handy then...

Again, I have no idea how they conduct ASP (etc.) training, but if they don't at least try to correlate such techniques or simply focus on the ultra less lethal areas then they are putting themselves to a BIG disadvantage.