Breaking my heart

KySilverado · April 10, 2010, 10:31 PM

An uncle who has shot and reloaded all his life is getting on in years has started handing off some of his loaded ammo to me.

No idea how long this has been loaded up but part of a lot of about 300 rounds. Handed off to me in a cardboard box and all rounds in plastic pull top 20 round ammo boxes. All of the cases on top layer are okay. Most of the ammo on the bottom layer are like this.

I'm pulling all the bullets to salvage them, the powder is really gummy and when I try and pop the primers to save the brass, the vast majority of them are leaving the outside rings of the primer in the cases. (the breaking heart part). Is there any way to save these cases.... get the rest of the primer out. Not trying to save the cases that are corroded on the sides. Most are just corroded around the primer.

What causes this? I have ammo that's been loaded up for 5 + years and shows no signs of this and shoots fine.

greco · April 11, 2010, 07:55 AM

I have 30+ year old ammo that looks like brand new. This ammo looks like the container got moisture on it, the cases got moisture on them from handling, or that this is a reaction from some kind of lube or other material on the cases. You were correct to pull the components.

Winterhawk56 · April 11, 2010, 11:37 AM

Does the spots have a faint view of finger prints? That would be a sign of something on the handlers fingers. I have seem this when ammunition has been stored in cardboard boxes that break down and leave residue on the brass.

Additionally copper when exposed to weather will turn blue/green and its called patina. This looks like a classic example of weathering as well as handling.

KySilverado · April 11, 2010, 12:08 PM

No evidence of finger prints.

What I find odd, maybe didn't explain it well, is that it only applies to the rounds that were on the bottom layer of the cardboard box. I think all rounds were generally loaded up in the same time frame. It also appears that the corrosion was specific to a couple types of bullets. There were some cast bullets on the bottom layer that are corrosion free while loads of this round nose bullet and a flat nose were all corroded. The layers on top were all loaded with a JHP and didn't corrode.

I'm soaking a couple cases in some vinegar to see if it will free up the primer "rings" to see if I can pick them out. Saving the bullets and as many cases as I can are now my goals.

sako2 · April 11, 2010, 01:06 PM

try turning a screw into the and pulling them with a set of pliers

KySilverado · April 11, 2010, 02:05 PM

Good idea!

HiBC · April 11, 2010, 02:18 PM

I cannot say what caused this,for sure,but I will suggest the brass is all that keeps many thousand psi of hot gas away from your face.IMO,the strenghth and safety of that brass has been compromized.
Might be good for a shadowbox/diarama display of old stuff.It may have more nosalgic value intact than it does as components that may fail and cause injury or firearm damage.

KySilverado · April 11, 2010, 03:50 PM

HiBC agree with the statements. The photo posted are of the worst case brass and will not be used. Any cases with corrosion on the side walls will be discarded. The vast majority of the cases however have only corroded primers and I'll inspect these after some cleaning.

I managed to save a bunch of the cases with the primer ring stuck in them. A drill and proper sized drill bit. Not the neatest process but it worked. Put the bit to the primer pocket and hold onto the case very well. The first bites of the bit would twist the primer ring and pop them loose.

riverwalker76 · April 11, 2010, 04:29 PM

Did he use Black Powder to reload those 45/70s?

If so ... the salt peter in the black powder could have broken down and corroded the brass. I've seen it happen in really old / antique ammo. The Black Powder starts breaking down due to poor storage conditions and breaks down into it's native components of salt peter (potassium nitrate) , charcoal, and sulfur.

If it isn't black powder it could be a number of things. A lot of early smokeless powders had potassium chloride in them. This is a common component of fertilizer and is a salt as well. Without knowing exactly what type of powder he used it's really hard to tell. There were so many additives in early powders. ie ... nitroglycerin, potassium nitrate, bismuth (a natural copper corrosive element), etc ....

Just my opinion but it does look like a corrosive salt came in contact with the brass. Corrosive salts break down, pit, and tarnish copper/brass.

KySilverado · April 11, 2010, 05:30 PM

Yes, 45-70. All modern components in the loads. I called him a while ago to ask. Either IMR 3031 or 4198 in the loads. The powders don't even look like stick powder coming out now. Looks like a wet flake powder.

KySilverado · April 11, 2010, 05:33 PM

A little more to HiBC's point, so as people wouldn't read this thread and think the brass from the original picture would be okay to salvage. I may keep the ones laying down so long as the case walls aren't corroded.

Here is a shot representative of what I'm trying to save. It appears to be brand new brass.

Case on the left is after I've hit it with a drill bit and pulled the remains of the primer enough to pull out with a pair of needle nose pliers. The center case is a shot of the primer pocket after I full length size them. One on the right just another shot of the case. Again to the title of "breaks my heart" to throw such good brass away and why I'm going through the pain to save them.

Winterhawk56 · April 11, 2010, 06:32 PM

The green panita look on the inside suggest the powder was wet! It also shows sign of ammonia! A further break down of powder. DIscard the brass as the ammonia breaks down the brass and no longer safe.

uncyboo · April 11, 2010, 08:13 PM

Soak any more brass in Kroil before decapping them. It may seep in enough to unlock the corrosion "weld" that you have.

HiBC · April 11, 2010, 09:21 PM

You might check Grafs or Midway or Natchez,etc.45-70 brass is not uncommon or horribly expensive.You might check Starline,too.
Time is money,silk purse,sow's ear.etc

KySilverado · April 11, 2010, 09:31 PM

They're all done. Only had about 200 to go through and went pretty fast once I got in the groove.

I'm going to take a chance with them. Load up 4-5 light loads with some cast bullets as a test. I think they will be fine.

Thanks for the input guys

**Unclenick** · April 11, 2010, 09:52 PM

In the worst case cases in the first photo, the right-most upright round has a pretty clear neck crack. That is a possible sign of ammonia, but I don't know that's what did it for sure? I'd not expect the bullet underneath to be in good shape. You really want to look for signs of corrosion in the brass from the inside out. I've never heard of powder actually losing form just from water exposure, but maybe it wasn't plain water? It sure looks like water or something wicked up into the primer pockets by capillary action and initiated corrosion. I can't tell from the photos, but if the primers are nickel plated or copper, it could be a galvanic corrosion reaction with the zinc in the brass. Curious about the powder, though.

Jim243 · April 11, 2010, 10:36 PM

Looks like they were stored next to Draino or some sort of Ammona based cleaner that spilled on them.

Nice try on trying to save the cases, but not worth the risks.

Jim

SQUAREKNOT · April 11, 2010, 10:38 PM

Ammo stored in the basement next to the wash machine? Chlorine bleach spilled and wicked into the lower boxes?
Those cases almost look like ballon head brass-like in REALLY REALLY OLD?

medalguy · April 11, 2010, 10:41 PM

I agree, typical of ammonia contamination. Note the corrosion around where the base of the bullet would be, indicates to me the powder went south and started breaking down and corroded from the inside out. I definitely would not try to salvage any of those cases, and I would be very suspicious of the better looking cases. After all, they were in the same box.

April 10, 2010, 10:31 PM	#1
KySilverado Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Posts: 147	Breaking my heart An uncle who has shot and reloaded all his life is getting on in years has started handing off some of his loaded ammo to me. No idea how long this has been loaded up but part of a lot of about 300 rounds. Handed off to me in a cardboard box and all rounds in plastic pull top 20 round ammo boxes. All of the cases on top layer are okay. Most of the ammo on the bottom layer are like this. I'm pulling all the bullets to salvage them, the powder is really gummy and when I try and pop the primers to save the brass, the vast majority of them are leaving the outside rings of the primer in the cases. (the breaking heart part). Is there any way to save these cases.... get the rest of the primer out. Not trying to save the cases that are corroded on the sides. Most are just corroded around the primer. What causes this? I have ammo that's been loaded up for 5 + years and shows no signs of this and shoots fine.

April 11, 2010, 07:55 AM	#2
greco Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 125	I have 30+ year old ammo that looks like brand new. This ammo looks like the container got moisture on it, the cases got moisture on them from handling, or that this is a reaction from some kind of lube or other material on the cases. You were correct to pull the components. __________________ NRA Pistol, Shotgun, Rifle Instructor

April 11, 2010, 04:29 PM	#9
riverwalker76 Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 993	Did he use Black Powder to reload those 45/70s? If so ... the salt peter in the black powder could have broken down and corroded the brass. I've seen it happen in really old / antique ammo. The Black Powder starts breaking down due to poor storage conditions and breaks down into it's native components of salt peter (potassium nitrate) , charcoal, and sulfur. If it isn't black powder it could be a number of things. A lot of early smokeless powders had potassium chloride in them. This is a common component of fertilizer and is a salt as well. Without knowing exactly what type of powder he used it's really hard to tell. There were so many additives in early powders. ie ... nitroglycerin, potassium nitrate, bismuth (a natural copper corrosive element), etc .... Just my opinion but it does look like a corrosive salt came in contact with the brass. Corrosive salts break down, pit, and tarnish copper/brass. __________________ *Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto* - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”

April 11, 2010, 05:30 PM	#10
KySilverado Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Posts: 147	Yes, 45-70. All modern components in the loads. I called him a while ago to ask. Either IMR 3031 or 4198 in the loads. The powders don't even look like stick powder coming out now. Looks like a wet flake powder. Last edited by KySilverado; April 11, 2010 at 05:39 PM.

April 11, 2010, 09:52 PM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	In the worst case cases in the first photo, the right-most upright round has a pretty clear neck crack. That is a possible sign of ammonia, but I don't know that's what did it for sure? I'd not expect the bullet underneath to be in good shape. You really want to look for signs of corrosion in the brass from the inside out. I've never heard of powder actually losing form just from water exposure, but maybe it wasn't plain water? It sure looks like water or something wicked up into the primer pockets by capillary action and initiated corrosion. I can't tell from the photos, but if the primers are nickel plated or copper, it could be a galvanic corrosion reaction with the zinc in the brass. Curious about the powder, though. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 11, 2010, 11:37 AM	#3
Winterhawk56 Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 228	Does the spots have a faint view of finger prints? That would be a sign of something on the handlers fingers. I have seem this when ammunition has been stored in cardboard boxes that break down and leave residue on the brass. Additionally copper when exposed to weather will turn blue/green and its called patina. This looks like a classic example of weathering as well as handling.

April 11, 2010, 12:08 PM	#4
KySilverado Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Posts: 147	No evidence of finger prints. What I find odd, maybe didn't explain it well, is that it only applies to the rounds that were on the bottom layer of the cardboard box. I think all rounds were generally loaded up in the same time frame. It also appears that the corrosion was specific to a couple types of bullets. There were some cast bullets on the bottom layer that are corrosion free while loads of this round nose bullet and a flat nose were all corroded. The layers on top were all loaded with a JHP and didn't corrode. I'm soaking a couple cases in some vinegar to see if it will free up the primer "rings" to see if I can pick them out. Saving the bullets and as many cases as I can are now my goals.

April 11, 2010, 01:06 PM	#5
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 741	try turning a screw into the and pulling them with a set of pliers

April 11, 2010, 02:05 PM	#6
KySilverado Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Posts: 147	Good idea!

April 11, 2010, 02:18 PM	#7
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	I cannot say what caused this,for sure,but I will suggest the brass is all that keeps many thousand psi of hot gas away from your face.IMO,the strenghth and safety of that brass has been compromized. Might be good for a shadowbox/diarama display of old stuff.It may have more nosalgic value intact than it does as components that may fail and cause injury or firearm damage.

April 11, 2010, 03:50 PM	#8
KySilverado Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Posts: 147	HiBC agree with the statements. The photo posted are of the worst case brass and will not be used. Any cases with corrosion on the side walls will be discarded. The vast majority of the cases however have only corroded primers and I'll inspect these after some cleaning. I managed to save a bunch of the cases with the primer ring stuck in them. A drill and proper sized drill bit. Not the neatest process but it worked. Put the bit to the primer pocket and hold onto the case very well. The first bites of the bit would twist the primer ring and pop them loose.

April 11, 2010, 05:33 PM	#11
KySilverado Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Posts: 147	A little more to HiBC's point, so as people wouldn't read this thread and think the brass from the original picture would be okay to salvage. I may keep the ones laying down so long as the case walls aren't corroded. Here is a shot representative of what I'm trying to save. It appears to be brand new brass. Case on the left is after I've hit it with a drill bit and pulled the remains of the primer enough to pull out with a pair of needle nose pliers. The center case is a shot of the primer pocket after I full length size them. One on the right just another shot of the case. Again to the title of "breaks my heart" to throw such good brass away and why I'm going through the pain to save them.

April 11, 2010, 06:32 PM	#12
Winterhawk56 Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 228	The green panita look on the inside suggest the powder was wet! It also shows sign of ammonia! A further break down of powder. DIscard the brass as the ammonia breaks down the brass and no longer safe.

April 11, 2010, 08:13 PM	#13
uncyboo Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2008 Location: Shelby, MT Posts: 1,013	Soak any more brass in Kroil before decapping them. It may seep in enough to unlock the corrosion "weld" that you have.

April 11, 2010, 09:21 PM	#14
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	You might check Grafs or Midway or Natchez,etc.45-70 brass is not uncommon or horribly expensive.You might check Starline,too. Time is money,silk purse,sow's ear.etc

April 11, 2010, 09:31 PM	#15
KySilverado Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Posts: 147	They're all done. Only had about 200 to go through and went pretty fast once I got in the groove. I'm going to take a chance with them. Load up 4-5 light loads with some cast bullets as a test. I think they will be fine. Thanks for the input guys

April 11, 2010, 10:36 PM	#17
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Looks like they were stored next to Draino or some sort of Ammona based cleaner that spilled on them. Nice try on trying to save the cases, but not worth the risks. Jim

April 11, 2010, 10:38 PM	#18
SQUAREKNOT Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Posts: 263	Ammo stored in the basement next to the wash machine? Chlorine bleach spilled and wicked into the lower boxes? Those cases almost look like ballon head brass-like in REALLY REALLY OLD?

April 11, 2010, 10:41 PM	#19
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,033	I agree, typical of ammonia contamination. Note the corrosion around where the base of the bullet would be, indicates to me the powder went south and started breaking down and corroded from the inside out. I definitely would not try to salvage any of those cases, and I would be very suspicious of the better looking cases. After all, they were in the same box.