Powder burn rate/ pressure/ muzzle flip/ flash/ smoke/ cleanliess

Field · November 11, 2009, 02:12 PM

mainly talking about non-magnum handgun loads here
.................................
so correct me if im wrong but with all factors being equal (gun, weight, barrel, bullets, yourself holding the gun, ect.) if you have 2 different powders that are both weighed properly to produce the exact same muzzle velocity with a given bullet, the faster burning powder is going to produce less technical 'muzzle flip' or 'felt recoil' than the slower burning powder...is this right?

if you have some insight on this please tell me what you know. such as have you tried firing ammo with different powders that were all weighed out to produce the same muzzle velocity on paper with a certain cartridge.

...............................

a slower burning powder that is still burning after the bullet has exited is going to produce more muzzle flash?

..........................

what exactly makes a certain powder more smokey than another powder?

if you are getting alot of smoke when you are shooting with a certain powder does this mean that the powder is not being properly used for the application? such as it is not being completely burned because pressures are not high enough and the bullet has left before it has been able to completely burn? or is it from the mix of materials that they use and it is unavoidable?
.................

if you have a given load that you have set up which shoots very cleanly such as minimal left over junk or unburnt powder can you infer from this that you are using the best possible powder charge for your given cartidge?

im assuming manufacturers design alot powders with a certain cartridge or application in mind like best used in '200g 45acp +P JHP self defense' or

best used in
'147g 9mm target shooting'
.........

?

Foxbat · November 11, 2009, 02:36 PM

You are correct, faster power usually produces less felt recoil.

Smoke... if you see a LOT of it, that is usually the result of shooting lead bullets - their lube burns producing smoke. Same powder used with jacketed bullets will usually pretty much eliminate the smoke.

Field · November 11, 2009, 03:29 PM

so if i was shooting 124g 9mm jhp and i had either Hodgdon HS-6 or Alliant Unique available to me, i would be better off using Unique because of its slightly faster burn rate, though it might be dirtier(?)

mapsjanhere · November 11, 2009, 03:53 PM

The "faster powder" statement is only true if your slower powder is so slow you're ejecting large quantities of unburned powder (which gives you additional recoil but no acceleration of the bullet). Unburned powder will burn as muzzle flash, so that should be your obvious sign that you're barrel is too short for the load. If both powders burn completely, the recoil from identical bullets at identical speeds will be, not surprisingly, identical.

Foxbat · November 11, 2009, 03:54 PM

These two are pretty close to each other, so I don't think you would notice much of a difference in recoil. Smoke - I don't know.

Foxbat · November 11, 2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

If both powders burn completely, the recoil from identical bullets at identical speeds will be, not surprisingly, identical.

There is plenty of confusion regarding this, but if you do a research, you will find that the overwhelming opinion states this is not so.

There are dozens of sources, take this for instance:

http://38super.net/Pages/Recoil.html

There's whole lot more out there.

SwampYankee · November 11, 2009, 04:01 PM

HS-6 is a mess compared to Unique. When I use it for .45 Colt loads, the range looks like a Civil War re-enactment just took place. Although when you push the pressures up (like in .40 S&W) it is a good bit cleaner. I see the same thing with .39 Special +p. In addition, when you use it with low pressure rounds and loads, you get a lot of unburned powder falling out of used cases.

Also remember though the lube on lead bullets can burn and cause lots of smoke too.

Field · November 11, 2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

HS-6 is a mess compared to Unique. When I use it for .45 Colt loads, the range looks like a Civil War re-enactment just took place

lol

Quote:

lube on lead bullets can burn and cause lots of smoke too

yeah i know lead bullets are cheaper and stuff but i make an effort to shoot jacketed mostly

twice barrel · November 11, 2009, 04:13 PM

You'll only find out in your gun with your loads by experimenting and eliminating one variable at a time. The acceleration of the burn of a propellant in a confined space relative to the effect for a given combustion chamber and pressure buildup and release thru a given bore is way too much for my simple mind to calculate even though I comprehend the concept.

Ideally your charge will build up to pressure needed to drive the projectile forward, accelerating to maximum velocity smoothly and steadily attaining it shortly before exiting the barrel just as all the powder is consumed and pressure is relieved.

Another charge may pressure up too fast, develop more pressure and then begin to decline with the projectile potentially decellerating as it exits the barrel. But everything is nice and clean when it does.

Another may build up slower but never reach maximum velocity because the barrel isn't long enough to exhaust its potential before the projectile exits. Unburned powder may "flash" upon exit and there may be "smoke".

All could feasibly provide the same muzzle velocity over your chronograph screens.

My feeling is that #2 would provide the highest "felt" recoil but that is just a gut feeling. #3 would be the smoothest but nastiest methinks.

Bullet grip tension also influences the pressure build up and solid ignition of the charge. Sometimes a tighter crimp will clean up the firing residue.

Jacketed bullets afford a tighter crimp than plated or lead do.

While I don't like the mess I do sorta enjoy the smoking barrel and have to admit that sometimes I enjoy the smell of burnt powder.

Regards,

TB

Field · November 12, 2009, 05:16 PM

whats the deal with increasing or decreasing the COL to change velocity? how much can you actually deviate from a recommended COL in either direction?

Foxbat · November 12, 2009, 05:21 PM

You can deviate quite a bit, but not without re-developing the load.

Field · November 13, 2009, 03:01 AM

what do you mean quite a bit like would i be able to make them as long as i want as long as they still fit in my magazine? at some point you would think there would be no ability for pressure to develope properly

B.L.E. · November 13, 2009, 06:47 AM

It's not just the weight of the bullet that makes the gun kick, it's also the weight of the gasses that push the bullet out of the barrel. These gasses weigh just as much as the gunpowder that generated them.
Slow burning powders for low velocity loads tend to be inefficient and need more powder to produce the same velocity as a lighter charge of fast burning powder.
If you want maximum kick for the least velocity, load with black powder. It takes about 70-80 grains of ffg in a 12 gauge shell to give you the same velocity as 16 to 18 grains of Red Dot.

SwampYankee · November 13, 2009, 07:23 AM

When you decrease COL for a given load (assuming you are following the manual exactly with bullet weight, type, primer, powder volume, etc), the pressure increases. This will increase the velocity. If you increase the COL, pressure will decrease and velocity will decrease. The tightness of crimp will do the same thing: more crimp= more pressure, less crimp= less pressure.

If you decrease the COL too much, you risk blowing up your gun because the pressure will spike past SAAMI limits. Some cartridges are worse than others. Screwing up the COL in .38 special will probably not destroy your gun. Doing it with .40 S&W is a very bad idea.

jmorris · November 13, 2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

if you have a given load that you have set up which shoots very cleanly such as minimal left over junk or unburnt powder can you infer from this that you are using the best possible powder charge for your given cartidge?

Only if clean and minimal left over junk are your only gauge for "best".

I have some pistols that love filthy loads that are on the high side of magnum where accuracy is concerned. There is a certain amount of R&D that you must go through to find any firearm’s sweet spot.

In non compensated pistols, faster powders/heavier bullets have less perceived recoil than lighter bullets/slower powders, if loaded to the same PF

I am not a chemist so I am not really sure why some powders are dirty and others not; however, I do know manufactures changed formulas over time as certain powders have cleaned up over time, 231 and Unique are two of them.

If you are looking for a very clean powder Vita Vouri powders are far and away the best I've found. Complete burn and almost no fouling. They won’t even alter the color of the powder measure when left over time.

Foxbat · November 13, 2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

what do you mean quite a bit like would i be able to make them as long as i want as long as they still fit in my magazine?

Well, sometimes that is true, sometimes you stop earlier if the bullet already bites into the groves and the round does not chamber properly. The key here is experimentation. If you go to places like Brian Enos forum, you will see the range of what people sometimes do.

Field · November 14, 2009, 12:53 PM

im assuming here that as temperature and humidity drop, your muzzle velocity increases. But for anyone that has experience with this what kind of changes do you see when going from 100f down to around 20-30f?

Ivan · November 14, 2009, 09:09 PM

Regarding big projectiles and black powder, From my experience, black powder doesn't produce the same sharp recoil as smokeless stuff.

- Ivan.

November 11, 2009, 02:12 PM	#1
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	Powder burn rate/ pressure/ muzzle flip/ flash/ smoke/ cleanliess mainly talking about non-magnum handgun loads here ................................. so correct me if im wrong but with all factors being equal (gun, weight, barrel, bullets, yourself holding the gun, ect.) if you have 2 different powders that are both weighed properly to produce the exact same muzzle velocity with a given bullet, the faster burning powder is going to produce less technical 'muzzle flip' or 'felt recoil' than the slower burning powder...is this right? if you have some insight on this please tell me what you know. such as have you tried firing ammo with different powders that were all weighed out to produce the same muzzle velocity on paper with a certain cartridge. ............................... a slower burning powder that is still burning after the bullet has exited is going to produce more muzzle flash? .......................... what exactly makes a certain powder more smokey than another powder? if you are getting alot of smoke when you are shooting with a certain powder does this mean that the powder is not being properly used for the application? such as it is not being completely burned because pressures are not high enough and the bullet has left before it has been able to completely burn? or is it from the mix of materials that they use and it is unavoidable? ................. if you have a given load that you have set up which shoots very cleanly such as minimal left over junk or unburnt powder can you infer from this that you are using the best possible powder charge for your given cartidge? im assuming manufacturers design alot powders with a certain cartridge or application in mind like best used in '200g 45acp +P JHP self defense' or best used in '147g 9mm target shooting' ......... ? __________________ iPSC=A66009 iDPA=A38321 http://www.youtube.com/user/FieldBoy111

November 11, 2009, 03:53 PM	#4
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	The "faster powder" statement is only true if your slower powder is so slow you're ejecting large quantities of unburned powder (which gives you additional recoil but no acceleration of the bullet). Unburned powder will burn as muzzle flash, so that should be your obvious sign that you're barrel is too short for the load. If both powders burn completely, the recoil from identical bullets at identical speeds will be, not surprisingly, identical. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

November 12, 2009, 05:16 PM	#10
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	whats the deal with increasing or decreasing the COL to change velocity? how much can you actually deviate from a recommended COL in either direction? __________________ iPSC=A66009 iDPA=A38321 http://www.youtube.com/user/FieldBoy111

November 13, 2009, 03:01 AM	#12
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	what do you mean quite a bit like would i be able to make them as long as i want as long as they still fit in my magazine? at some point you would think there would be no ability for pressure to develope properly __________________ iPSC=A66009 iDPA=A38321 http://www.youtube.com/user/FieldBoy111

November 14, 2009, 12:53 PM	#17
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	im assuming here that as temperature and humidity drop, your muzzle velocity increases. But for anyone that has experience with this what kind of changes do you see when going from 100f down to around 20-30f? __________________ iPSC=A66009 iDPA=A38321 http://www.youtube.com/user/FieldBoy111

November 11, 2009, 02:36 PM	#2
Foxbat Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2008 Posts: 367	You are correct, faster power usually produces less felt recoil. Smoke... if you see a LOT of it, that is usually the result of shooting lead bullets - their lube burns producing smoke. Same powder used with jacketed bullets will usually pretty much eliminate the smoke.

November 11, 2009, 03:29 PM	#3
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	so if i was shooting 124g 9mm jhp and i had either Hodgdon HS-6 or Alliant Unique available to me, i would be better off using Unique because of its slightly faster burn rate, though it might be dirtier(?) __________________ iPSC=A66009 iDPA=A38321 http://www.youtube.com/user/FieldBoy111

November 11, 2009, 03:54 PM	#5
Foxbat Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2008 Posts: 367	These two are pretty close to each other, so I don't think you would notice much of a difference in recoil. Smoke - I don't know.

November 11, 2009, 04:01 PM	#7
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	HS-6 is a mess compared to Unique. When I use it for .45 Colt loads, the range looks like a Civil War re-enactment just took place. Although when you push the pressures up (like in .40 S&W) it is a good bit cleaner. I see the same thing with .39 Special +p. In addition, when you use it with low pressure rounds and loads, you get a lot of unburned powder falling out of used cases. Also remember though the lube on lead bullets can burn and cause lots of smoke too.

November 11, 2009, 04:13 PM	#9
twice barrel Member Join Date: November 11, 2009 Posts: 98	You'll only find out in your gun with your loads by experimenting and eliminating one variable at a time. The acceleration of the burn of a propellant in a confined space relative to the effect for a given combustion chamber and pressure buildup and release thru a given bore is way too much for my simple mind to calculate even though I comprehend the concept. Ideally your charge will build up to pressure needed to drive the projectile forward, accelerating to maximum velocity smoothly and steadily attaining it shortly before exiting the barrel just as all the powder is consumed and pressure is relieved. Another charge may pressure up too fast, develop more pressure and then begin to decline with the projectile potentially decellerating as it exits the barrel. But everything is nice and clean when it does. Another may build up slower but never reach maximum velocity because the barrel isn't long enough to exhaust its potential before the projectile exits. Unburned powder may "flash" upon exit and there may be "smoke". All could feasibly provide the same muzzle velocity over your chronograph screens. My feeling is that #2 would provide the highest "felt" recoil but that is just a gut feeling. #3 would be the smoothest but nastiest methinks. Bullet grip tension also influences the pressure build up and solid ignition of the charge. Sometimes a tighter crimp will clean up the firing residue. Jacketed bullets afford a tighter crimp than plated or lead do. While I don't like the mess I do sorta enjoy the smoking barrel and have to admit that sometimes I enjoy the smell of burnt powder. Regards, TB

November 12, 2009, 05:21 PM	#11
Foxbat Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2008 Posts: 367	You can deviate quite a bit, but not without re-developing the load.

November 13, 2009, 06:47 AM	#13
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	It's not just the weight of the bullet that makes the gun kick, it's also the weight of the gasses that push the bullet out of the barrel. These gasses weigh just as much as the gunpowder that generated them. Slow burning powders for low velocity loads tend to be inefficient and need more powder to produce the same velocity as a lighter charge of fast burning powder. If you want maximum kick for the least velocity, load with black powder. It takes about 70-80 grains of ffg in a 12 gauge shell to give you the same velocity as 16 to 18 grains of Red Dot.

November 13, 2009, 07:23 AM	#14
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	When you decrease COL for a given load (assuming you are following the manual exactly with bullet weight, type, primer, powder volume, etc), the pressure increases. This will increase the velocity. If you increase the COL, pressure will decrease and velocity will decrease. The tightness of crimp will do the same thing: more crimp= more pressure, less crimp= less pressure. If you decrease the COL too much, you risk blowing up your gun because the pressure will spike past SAAMI limits. Some cartridges are worse than others. Screwing up the COL in .38 special will probably not destroy your gun. Doing it with .40 S&W is a very bad idea.

November 14, 2009, 09:09 PM	#18
Ivan Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Posts: 141	Regarding big projectiles and black powder, From my experience, black powder doesn't produce the same sharp recoil as smokeless stuff. - Ivan.