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December 31, 2009, 01:35 PM | #101 | |
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"To prevent the executive power from being able to oppress, says baron Montesquieu, it is requisite that the armies with which it is entrusted should consist of the people, and have the same spirit with the people; as was the case at Rome, till Marius new-modelled the legions by enlisting the rabble of Italy, and laid the foundation of all the military tyranny that ensued. Nothing then, according to these principles, ought to be more guarded against in a free state, than making the military power, when such a one is necessary to be kept on foot, a body too distinct from the people." (--Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765)) Why guard against making a military power distinct from the people unless to ensure that it ultimately sides with the people? |
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December 31, 2009, 01:45 PM | #102 |
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Some revolutions have succeeded due to most of the armed forces siding with the rebellion. This is going beyond the question of this topic but it suggests that general conscription would be a good idea if it reflects the people generally, which is a big if.
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December 31, 2009, 02:08 PM | #103 | ||
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Hugh, ever wonder why the BOR did not originally apply to the states? I see your debating in another thread about the McDonald case and you then must know that the Founding Fathers thought quite differently about state power and rights than we do today. We are much more federalized today and the FFs didn't foresee that IMO. That is another argument but the state militia THEN was the military bulwark against tryanny. The state militia WAS the people's militia THEN. That militia became the NG but states may still under the 2A raise and equip a miltia if they so choose, but I doubt we will ever see it.
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December 31, 2009, 02:58 PM | #104 | ||
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If I understand the remainder of your point correctly, it is that a militia directed by the government could oppose that government, but only if it is no longer directed by it. I think it is an implausible reading of the second amendment that has the drafters of the COTUS contemplating mutiny of government controlled armed forces as the means of securing a free state. That reading would be at odds with their anxieties about a standing army.
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December 31, 2009, 03:03 PM | #105 | ||
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The Constitution gives the Congress plenary power over the militia: To call forth (both the organized and the unorganized - the draft); To organize; To arm; to discipline; To train in accordance with Congressional directives. The only thing reserved to the States was the appointment of the officers of the militia (a State power no longer recognized - without the consent of Congress - I might add). Amongst those powers, is also the power to do nothing whatsoever. That was the problem over the militias that the anti-federalists objected to. If the Congress refused to arm the militias, or the Congress passed a law to disarm the militias, that was well within the powers granted by the Constitution. The Second Amendment was the answer. If the people could not be disarmed, the militia could be preserved. So just who were the militia? We all know the answer: They were every man (and many times, every boy) capable of defending hearth and home. "Well Regulated" did not mean trained to military discipline. Towards the end of the 19th century and progressing into the 20th century, through direct application of Federal legislation (and with the consent and neglect of the States), the militia became a select militia and was wholly subsumed into the Federal system. The National Guard of today is that select militia and is only on "loan" to the States, it is not the "militia" that we are discussing. From the Merits brief by Chicago, pg. 35 (pg. 60 of the pdf): Quote:
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December 31, 2009, 03:50 PM | #106 | ||
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December 31, 2009, 04:50 PM | #107 |
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Sounds good in theory. But what if said militia, composed not of "all the people" but of "enough" (someone has to stay home and operate the country in the absence of the militia), were loyal to someone, perish the thought, who had ideas of their own, and there are many who do. Sort of a latter day Aaron Burr.
Part of the problem here that is being ignored is that the people are not all of one mind, always a thorny problem. But military rule per se is not the real term since the Soviet Union and China both have civilian government. Also, if the government provides the arms, it can still be a militia. Even the Boers had government issued rifles.
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December 31, 2009, 05:52 PM | #108 | |||
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The antis want it tied to the militia because they know the militia is dead and unlikely to be revived and so they may pass any and every type of gun control legislation they wanted all the while saying "Your right to own that shotgun is tied to your service in the miltia and when we decide to call it up you can have your gun!" The pros want the militia tied in so they can claim a right to own any and every type of military weapon they could afford without restriction. To this I say: Thank God for Heller who correctly separated the two. Now I can own a weapon in common use for civilian self defense, we can restrict military weapons unsuitable for civilian self defense and all is in balance IMO. Quote:
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I still maintain that to the individual citizen today the 2A only applies to their own ability to defend themselves personally not to rebel against the government.
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December 31, 2009, 06:09 PM | #109 | |
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Is the first quote saying that the 2A protects the right to participate in national defense as a member of the unorganized militia but then it isn't necessary? And are you saying the unorganized militia has no use or purpose today because nobody (other than a few of us) care about it anymore?
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December 31, 2009, 06:18 PM | #110 | ||
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Tennessee Gent, to note that the militia exists and that the individual right to keep and bear arms is protected by the 2d Am. does not mean that one is "tied to" (I suspect from your locution you mean "limited by") the other. That the individual right declared pertained to the militia should give a reader some insight into the breadth of the right it protected. Quote:
If the militia were to be under control of the government it could not also be under the control of a separate entity, the population. If you are using the term "militia" according to code, you would not want that militia under government control since that would effectively mean a government controlled population. Have I misunderstood your point?
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December 31, 2009, 09:21 PM | #111 | |
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December 31, 2009, 09:35 PM | #112 | |
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January 2, 2010, 08:48 AM | #113 |
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TG: You know I always enjoy these threads also.
I need to get my thoughts back on track, so can I ask you these questions? (I've forgotten how far you go with the government involvement aspect of militias and, since I agree with Al's view on militias, I need to get a little better handle on how you feel.) Do you feel the unorganized militia can only be "legitimized" when qualifying people are called upon by governmental entities to enlist and participate in a well regulated militia? What rights do you see the unorganized militia having in organizing themselves in doomsday types of scenarios mentioned in the original post? Let's say we are in deep, deep trouble and society has "broken down". Could a group of us determine that someone like yourself, with military experience, be appointed as an officer to organize us into a workable force? And would this "appointment" fall under the framework of what the FF's intended a well regulated militia might evolve into? ETA: I'm not talking about enacted statutes over the years because we all know legislators will never write out governmental involvement in areas such as this. It just never happens IMHO. I look to Federalist Paper No. 29 alot when getting into gray areas and feel Hamilton's paper provides the "flavor" of what the militia system was all about at the time of the FF's. It is a "preamble" so to speak. What I'm asking is your opinion as to what the FF's might say regarding situations not comptemplated at that time (i.e., where governments have broken down and there are only the unorganized masses wandering around). I would say we do have the authority, under the "flavor" of the Constitution, to organize ourselves into a well regulated militia in such doomsday scenarios. http://jim.com/federalist/fed29.htm Last edited by RDak; January 2, 2010 at 09:15 AM. |
January 2, 2010, 11:59 AM | #114 | |||
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Therefore, I would only see a legitimate militia being called during a time of national emergency by a functioning government to meet a specific threat or problem. That is what I believe the FFs thought as well. The militia in such circumstances might be asked to bring it's own weapons but I doubt it would since firearms are cheap and plentiful today and the logisitical problems would be large with various assorted shotguns and Grandpa's .32. However, even that scenario is pretty much beyond the pale today. No foreign country can invade us because we would nuke them into oblivion and we have sufficient NG and LEOs to handle large civil unrest or natural disaster without a need to call up the militia. I am NOT talking about just volunteering to help like my church did during Katrina and I am not talking about brief localized small crazy periods like the LA riots where folk might band together for SD. Those are not militia activity. Quote:
Finally, what militia thread would not be appropriate without mentioning the Nazis (forgive me Glenn). But you know it was the weak Weimar Republic and it's lack of effective democratic institutions and protection of civil rights that allowed the Nazi's to take over. The "armed citizenry" that facilitated that were the Brown Shirts. In fact I see very scary parallels between the Sturmabteilung and some of these "modern" militia groups. Mobs with guns who answer only to themselves. This is a true danger to liberty those who post fervently for some imagined unaccountable "people's militia" should consider.
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January 2, 2010, 04:31 PM | #115 | |
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Ok TG, thanks for the answers.
Yes, doomsday scenarios are extreme situations but I feel there is enough of the Constitution "inbred" in many, many of us that we might react differently than Somali's, but you would know that better than I would. (Did/does Somalia have an constitutional framework that would be more similar to ours than dissimilar?) No doubt Hamilton calls for government involvement in most aspects of a militia, whether it be organized or unorganized, but he seems to temper this involvement IMHO when he makes this statement: Quote:
I'm going a long way around the barn in saying I feel the FF's wouldn't have a problem with the unorganized militia forming legitimate well regulated militias should the need ever arise. (Although you bring up a good point that this would be a highly unlikely occurrance. But that is what the OP brought up. I just thought it was an interesting way to look at how militias might work in draconian situations.) |
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January 2, 2010, 05:19 PM | #116 | ||||
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Here is another takefrom Federalist # 29. Quote:
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January 3, 2010, 09:44 AM | #117 |
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Yes TG, overall Hamilton is for some governmental control over militias. In some of his writing, alot of control, in other paragraphs, not so much. But overall, some governmental involvement in supervising, organizing, etc. On average, he was quite a bit for governmental oversight IMHO.
I am also for governmental control under normal, everyday, "real world" types of situations. However, those couple of paragraphs I quoted always have had me wondering if Hamilton recognized the need to have an armed, unorganized militia out there "just in case"? (I believe he did but I'll never know.) I wish he were alive today. We could sit down with him, have a few beers and probably have one of the most interesting conversations we have ever had in our lives. (I've read he was pretty arrogant but I don't care, he was a pure genius IMHO.) Btw, thanks for the info. on Somalia. Never knew they were without any sort of constitutional framework for all intents and purposes. Being under the control of Italy for so long, I am surprised by that fact. Last edited by RDak; January 3, 2010 at 09:51 AM. |
January 3, 2010, 11:48 AM | #118 | ||
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The best scene IMHO was when G. Washington, T. Jefferson, Adams and Hamilton are having lunch. Hamilton says we need credit and so should borrow money immdiately from other countries. Jefferson replies: "I fear our revolution will have been in vain if a Virginia farmer is in hock to a NY Stock-jobber who is in hock to a London Banker" to which Hamilton replies "If men were angels we would need no government". Great stuff! Quote:
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January 3, 2010, 03:53 PM | #119 |
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I've been wondering a little if those of use who are so in favor of an armed militia are like me and over 60.
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January 3, 2010, 04:01 PM | #120 | |
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