Oh no, not again. Another school shooting.

chris in va · March 22, 2005, 01:26 AM

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WillBrayjr · March 22, 2005, 08:28 AM

Already got it covered

chris in va · March 22, 2005, 12:30 PM

Oops.

Jungle Work · March 22, 2005, 09:42 PM

It's Springtime in the Air and we get to have another Slaughter of the Lambs in a Gun Free School Zones. I understand the Extrememly Effective Unarmed Security Guard was gunned down first. I'm sure he had an adequate chance to defend himself and the people in the school. Then everybody got to hide under their desk and called mommy on their cell phones (sounds like a plan to me), while others got to beg for mercy from the shooter. It's truly so nice of the Governmental Agencies and the School Administrations of the United States to provide such a nice and safe place for the Wackos and Devotees of Goth to shoot up the students and teachers. I'm sure it gives OSHA a warm and fuzzy feeling to know that folks can work in such a clean and safe atmosphere.

I just goes to show how a shotgun is far deadlier than an assault rifle or an assault pistol (what ever they are) at close range.

I am really proud of the BIA Officers, who upon arriving did not set up a premieter, call out the SWAT, wait for the Hostage Negoiaters and Bosses to arrive. All the while the perp is inside bustin' caps on the students, teachers and administrators. Those Officers who upon arrival made entry and engaged the perp with their weapons and stopped the carnage. Them Boys have a set and there is no back up in them. The Police Departments and Law Enforcement Agencies in such places Columbine, San Diego (San Ysidro) and Edmond could learn a lot from the BIA Police about protecting one's citizens. But then again what do a bunch of hick Indians know.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember back in the late 70s or early 80s a bunch of Evil Arabs made a habit of comming across Israel's northern Border, entering and shooting up Schools. The Israelis, being no wussies, did not care for the murder of their children. So they had the Sayeret Makal , a group of kind and gentle men teach the Teachers and School Administrators to shoot. They spent all of one summer working on combat shooting with them.
The next school year, when the Evil Arabs showed up, the Teachers and Guards shot those Evil Arab's peckers off. A couple of doses of that and the Evil Arabs canceled all plans for shooting up Israeli schools and had to be content lobbing rockets across the border and the occasional ambush of soldiers.

So much for history and learning from it.

Jungle Work

U.F.O. · March 22, 2005, 09:46 PM

Well said Jungle Work.

U.F.O.

w4klr · March 23, 2005, 12:17 AM

+1 Vote to make Jungle Work's post a sticky?

Para Bellum · March 23, 2005, 05:56 PM

if this offers any comfort: This is not a US-only problem. In 2002 a student of a German high school in Erfurt shot 17 students and teachers before a teacher locked him away in a classroom and he finally shot himself.

I agree that the protection is way beyond acceptable. It's also interesting that the ones who end up shooting always were picked on for ages before. If we want to put an end to this I think we had to increase protection to a serious level and change behavoir at school. Even your own dog bites you one day if you constantly abuse it. This is by no means an excuse or justification - it's looking for ways to end and prevent this madness.

BreacherUp! · March 23, 2005, 06:05 PM

Quote:

I am really proud of the BIA Officers, who upon arriving did not set up a premieter, call out the SWAT, wait for the Hostage Negoiaters and Bosses to arrive. All the while the perp is inside bustin' caps on the students, teachers and administrators. Those Officers who upon arrival made entry and engaged the perp with their weapons and stopped the carnage. Them Boys have a set and there is no back up in them. The Police Departments and Law Enforcement Agencies in such places Columbine, San Diego (San Ysidro) and Edmond could learn a lot from the BIA Police about protecting one's citizens. But then again what do a bunch of hick Indians know.

The 1st responders did right. However, you must understand that @ Columbine, San Diego, the SOP THEN was to wait for tac teams. Those venues changed that. Now you have RDT (Rapid Deployment Tactics) where patrol cops are taught basic techniques so that they can work together when they arrive on scene, even if they're from different agencies. At least that is an improvement.
I agree, obviously, security at schools needs to be tighter. Remember, though. Just like the Palestinians, if you want to do the deed, you are going to have good recon of the security apparatus (armed guards). They'll be the 1st to be taken out. A layered security approach is much better then putting all of your defense at one entry point (one armed guard standing next to a metal detector)

artsmom · March 23, 2005, 06:38 PM

I graduated high school in 1978, and the last two years we had armed security guards, both ex MPs. They were not uniformed and had snubnoses.

Here's a refreshing change: During an unusually warm winter day, a bat was discovered in one of my son's classrooms. Since I lived only a few houses down from the school, the school administrator sent my son home to fetch me and and a 'bat gun" to take care of it. We headed for the school with a Benjamin .20 air pistol and dispatched it while classes carried on elsewhere.

(Our town has a bad history of rabies, for all of you fellow bat lovers. When kids are involved, showing up in class is a capital crime for bats.)

alan · March 23, 2005, 06:59 PM

Could it be that my imagination is overly active, or is it that these shooting "atrocities" seem to run in cycles? I refer to those "in school" as well as "out of school".

Anyone have something to add?

Jungle Work · March 23, 2005, 08:34 PM

Breacher,
Excellent observation on their SOPs. I was not a big city police officer, but one of the first things I told my officers when I was appointed Chief. If you get a call of a shooting at a school, a restaurant or what ever and you arrive and some peice of trash is murdering folks inside, I expect you and what other officers who are there to make entry and stop the killing of innocents. I told them I didn't want any of my officers hurt or killed, but that I believed that when we had taken an oath to defend the citizens and we were not about to sit on our duffs outside a building while our citizens were being murdered inside. I explained to them that's why we get paid the "big money and get to wear the shiny badges".

I attended a conference of SWAT Officers in Edmond Oklahoma after the shooting at their Post Office. There were officers from San Diego present along with agents from the FBI. We started discussing the correct response to a shooting in progress when the officers arrive. I explained my feelings as stated above and you'd thought that I said we should go bugger the POPE and finish up with his crusifixiation. It seem that they had received beau coup bad press and comments from other Agencies that their response to the shootings was not what it should have been. Whether the SOP says wait for SWAT, the negotiators or the bosses, those officers still owe a duty to the citizens. If they use the excuse that we have SOPs to make themselves feel better so be it. And this goes for Federal Agents who hide behind a vehicle across the street from where their brother officers have been wounded, killed and one was fighting for his life and they did not come to his aid. Nobody ever said the truth would make folks happy.

Alan,
I believe you're right about cycles. School shootings always seem to happen when Spring is in the Air.

Jungle Work

March 22, 2005, 01:26 AM	#1
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Oh no, not again. Another school shooting. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...J&SECTION=HOME

March 22, 2005, 09:42 PM	#4
Jungle Work Junior member Join Date: January 31, 2005 Location: 20 Miles from Water, 2 Miles from Hell Posts: 282	It's Springtime in the Air and we get to have another *Slaughter of the Lambs* in a Gun Free School Zones. I understand the Extrememly Effective Unarmed Security Guard was gunned down first. I'm sure he had an adequate chance to defend himself and the people in the school. Then everybody got to hide under their desk and called mommy on their cell phones (sounds like a plan to me), while others got to beg for mercy from the shooter. It's truly so nice of the Governmental Agencies and the School Administrations of the United States to provide such a nice and safe place for the Wackos and Devotees of Goth to shoot up the students and teachers. I'm sure it gives OSHA a warm and fuzzy feeling to know that folks can work in such a clean and safe atmosphere. I just goes to show how a shotgun is far deadlier than an assault rifle or an assault pistol (what ever they are) at close range. I am really proud of the BIA Officers, who upon arriving did not set up a premieter, call out the SWAT, wait for the Hostage Negoiaters and Bosses to arrive. All the while the perp is inside bustin' caps on the students, teachers and administrators. Those Officers who upon arrival made entry and engaged the perp with their weapons and stopped the carnage. Them Boys have a set and there is no back up in them. The Police Departments and Law Enforcement Agencies in such places Columbine, San Diego (San Ysidro) and Edmond could learn a lot from the BIA Police about protecting one's citizens. But then again what do a bunch of hick Indians know. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember back in the late 70s or early 80s a bunch of Evil Arabs made a habit of comming across Israel's northern Border, entering and shooting up Schools. The Israelis, being no wussies, did not care for the murder of their children. So they had the Sayeret Makal , a group of kind and gentle men teach the Teachers and School Administrators to shoot. They spent all of one summer working on combat shooting with them. The next school year, when the Evil Arabs showed up, the Teachers and Guards shot those Evil Arab's peckers off. A couple of doses of that and the Evil Arabs canceled all plans for shooting up Israeli schools and had to be content lobbing rockets across the border and the occasional ambush of soldiers. So much for history and learning from it. Jungle Work Last edited by Jungle Work; March 23, 2005 at 01:03 AM.

March 22, 2005, 09:46 PM	#5
U.F.O. Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2004 Location: TN Posts: 513	Well said Jungle Work. U.F.O. __________________ "But today you just read that the man was shot dead By a gun that didn’t make any noise But it wasn’t the bullet that laid him to rest was The low spark of high-heeled boys" ~Traffic - Stevie Winwood~

March 23, 2005, 05:56 PM	#7
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	not a USA-only problem if this offers any comfort: This is not a US-only problem. In 2002 a student of a German high school in Erfurt shot 17 students and teachers before a teacher locked him away in a classroom and he finally shot himself. I agree that the protection is way beyond acceptable. It's also interesting that the ones who end up shooting always were picked on for ages before. If we want to put an end to this I think we had to increase protection to a serious level and change behavoir at school. Even your own dog bites you one day if you constantly abuse it. This is by no means an excuse or justification - it's looking for ways to end and prevent this madness. __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

March 22, 2005, 08:28 AM	#2
WillBrayjr Junior member Join Date: September 26, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 1,881	Already got it covered

March 22, 2005, 12:30 PM	#3
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Oops.

March 23, 2005, 12:17 AM	#6
w4klr Junior member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Fl Posts: 280	+1 Vote to make Jungle Work's post a sticky?

March 23, 2005, 06:38 PM	#9
artsmom Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 334	I graduated high school in 1978, and the last two years we had armed security guards, both ex MPs. They were not uniformed and had snubnoses. Here's a refreshing change: During an unusually warm winter day, a bat was discovered in one of my son's classrooms. Since I lived only a few houses down from the school, the school administrator sent my son home to fetch me and and a 'bat gun" to take care of it. We headed for the school with a Benjamin .20 air pistol and dispatched it while classes carried on elsewhere. (Our town has a bad history of rabies, for all of you fellow bat lovers. When kids are involved, showing up in class is a capital crime for bats.)

March 23, 2005, 06:59 PM	#10
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Could it be that my imagination is overly active, or is it that these shooting "atrocities" seem to run in cycles? I refer to those "in school" as well as "out of school". Anyone have something to add?

March 23, 2005, 08:34 PM	#11
Jungle Work Junior member Join Date: January 31, 2005 Location: 20 Miles from Water, 2 Miles from Hell Posts: 282	Breacher, Excellent observation on their SOPs. I was not a big city police officer, but one of the first things I told my officers when I was appointed Chief. If you get a call of a shooting at a school, a restaurant or what ever and you arrive and some peice of trash is murdering folks inside, I expect you and what other officers who are there to make entry and stop the killing of innocents. I told them I didn't want any of my officers hurt or killed, but that I believed that when we had taken an oath to defend the citizens and we were not about to sit on our duffs outside a building while our citizens were being murdered inside. I explained to them that's why we get paid the "big money and get to wear the shiny badges". I attended a conference of SWAT Officers in Edmond Oklahoma after the shooting at their Post Office. There were officers from San Diego present along with agents from the FBI. We started discussing the correct response to a shooting in progress when the officers arrive. I explained my feelings as stated above and you'd thought that I said we should go bugger the POPE and finish up with his crusifixiation. It seem that they had received beau coup bad press and comments from other Agencies that their response to the shootings was not what it should have been. Whether the SOP says wait for SWAT, the negotiators or the bosses, those officers still owe a duty to the citizens. If they use the excuse that we have SOPs to make themselves feel better so be it. And this goes for Federal Agents who hide behind a vehicle across the street from where their brother officers have been wounded, killed and one was fighting for his life and they did not come to his aid. Nobody ever said the truth would make folks happy. Alan, I believe you're right about cycles. School shootings always seem to happen when Spring is in the Air. Jungle Work