What doors do moonclips open and....

Pond, James Pond · July 4, 2015, 02:04 AM

... when are they applicable?

By that I mean what ammo can the be used with and what is the advantage over speed-loaders?

What is the disadvantage?

10-96 · July 4, 2015, 02:30 AM

Advantages- they are handy if you have a revolver that is designed to handle them.

Disadvantages- there aren't a lot of revolvers that are designed to handle them.

Over here, folks might be inclined to modify their revolvers to make use of moon clips for rimmed ctgs such as .38, .357, .41, .45 Long Colt. I guess they do this for some advantage to whatever sport competition they may be engaged in. Here, the back side of the cylinder must be machined down to allow for the extra space of the clip which the rim would then ride on.

However, the moon clip was intended to be used with rimless ctgs. (Look up the history of the 1917 S&W and 1917 Colt pistols.) Anyway, they make rimless ctgs most convenient to get out of the cylinder since the ejector star won't be of much use without a rim. A very few early 1917's did not have a step within each of the 6 cylinder holes and the ctg would fall out the noisy end or not stay put whilest being struck by the firing pin.

DaleA · July 4, 2015, 02:41 AM

Well 10-96 beat me to it and did a fine job too but I typed and typed on my reply so I'm posting it anyway.

Okay, I’ll step up and state the really obvious points (cause that’s all I know) and then let the more knowledgeable folk here fill in the subtleties of the devices.

Moon clips:
https://www.google.com/search?q=moon...IKPAK5eq9Rg%3D

Moon clips are for revolvers with swing out cylinders or top break cylinders that allow them to eject rimless cartridges.

The most popular moon clips are for 9mm and .45 ACP.

Moon clips are faster than speed loaders. Watch Jerry Miculek on youtube use them.

Revolvers CAN load and fire rimless cartridges if the cylinder is machined so that the cartridges headspace on the case mouth, that is, the cartridge drops into the cylinder and the case mouth hits the slightly smaller diameter part of the cylinder. Now the cartridge cannot go farther. When the cylinder is closed and the gun fired the firing pin hits the primer the cartridge will go off. Without the moon clips though you have to use something to poke the empty cases out of the cylinder. The star extractor has nothing to push against since the rimless cartridges have no rims.

The moon clips hold the cartridges. There are full moon clips and half moon clips.

There have been some clever revolver designs that do eject rimless cartridges but they aren’t very common.

There have been some modifications where spring wire is put around the star extractor so that the revolver can eject rimless cartridges but again they aren’t very common.

Speed loaders can drop cartridges into a cylinder but they don’t help with extracting the fired cases from the cyclinder.

10-96 · July 4, 2015, 03:01 AM

Sorry 'bout that Dale.

Pond, James Pond · July 4, 2015, 12:04 PM

Does cutting one's cylinder for moonclips, but then not using them somehow mean unsupported case heads or something?

If not, then how come all revolvers don't come pre-cut for clips?

Beagle45ACP · July 4, 2015, 01:36 PM

Quote:

If not, then how come all revolvers don't come pre-cut for clips?

My guess would be cost

Pond, James Pond · July 4, 2015, 02:54 PM

Quote:

My guess would be cost

Stupid economics.....

HighValleyRanch · July 4, 2015, 03:24 PM

thought about getting a 9mm LCR to go with my glock carry, but is there one person here who actually carries one or two moon clips with 9mm? Seems way more inconvenient that flat speed loaders.

Slimjim9 · July 4, 2015, 03:39 PM

If you're carrying the LCR9 as a BUG to the Glock, you wouldn't worry about reload of the LCR. You'd almost certainly be toast by that point. But you could do one reload with a speed strip as you can fire the LCR9 without moon clips - just can't extract quickly.

HighValleyRanch · July 4, 2015, 03:45 PM

No, wasn't thinking of when it was a BUG to glock, but when carrying it alone on hot summer days.
More about ammo compatibility.

But good to note that it can be shot without a clip minus the extraction problem. Will remember to carry a pen or pencil!

Bob Wright · July 4, 2015, 03:47 PM

Pond, James Pond, asketh:

Quote:

If not, then how come all revolvers don't come pre-cut for clips?

I find them just too blamed unhandy to use:

Bob Wright

Pond, James Pond · July 4, 2015, 04:10 PM

Quote:

I find them just too blamed unhandy to use:

Alright, then: all DA revolvers...

BigJimP · July 4, 2015, 04:12 PM

The reason all revolvers are not cut for moon clips...is most revolver cartridges are "rimmed" cases...and they don't need moon clips ( .357 mag as an example )....

its only the "rimless cases" like .45 acp ...or 9mm ...that need moon clips.../ but in a model 25 S&W that is chambered in .45 acp you always have the option of shooting a .45 Auto Rim as well - without moon clips.

BigJimP · July 4, 2015, 04:15 PM

I don't like fussing with moon clips...to me they are just a hassle to load / but in the right hands, like Jerry Miculek, they are certainly quicker to use than any other kind of speed loader I've ever seen....

Pond, James Pond · July 4, 2015, 04:16 PM

But you can use moonclips on rimmed cases like .44s, no?

Seems like it would be a good feature. Loading my .44 with moonclips would be cool and quick!!

Sheikyourbootie · July 4, 2015, 04:34 PM

Moonclips are quicker to load than speed loaders, provided you have a bullet profile that makes them easy to load.

Rimmed cartridges work just fine so long as your cylinder is milled to accept moon clips. For the 627 buy the TK moonclips. They are thicker and easier to use than the wimpy factory moon clips. Also, 5 star makes a great 8 shot speed loader. If the gun is for carry/hunting the speed loaders are not going to get bent like moon clips can.

James K · July 4, 2015, 04:40 PM

The old revolvers, like the Colt and S&W 1917 models were converted to use rimless cartridges with moon clips by cutting down the rear of the cylinder. So to use a cartridge that had the same length without clips required a thick rim to make up for the thickness of both the rim and the clip, hence the .45 Auto Rim.

But modern revolvers made to use clips with rimmed cartridges, like .38 Special and .357 Magnum, have only part of the cylinder cut away, so that there is still support for the case rim, while still allowing for the advantages of a clip. The clip is thin, so the reduced area of support for the case does not extend far enough forward to be beyond the case internal web, so the case will not blow out.

But only a relatively few users want to go to clips for rimmed cartridges, so there is no mass demand for the additional cost of making all revolvers to accept clips.

A disadvantage of using clips with rimmed cases is that the groove in the case ahead of the rim was put there for use by the loading machines. It is not very deep and so the clip does not hold the cartridges very firmly, plus not all makes of ammunition have it.

Jim

Bob Wright · July 4, 2015, 08:10 PM

The use of moon clips and speed loaders is of use only to the para military gunfighter where rapid reloading is required. For us who are sport shooters, revolvers such as the Single Action and double action where single fired rounds may be ejected and fresh live rounds loaded is perfectly adequate.

Subject to being bent, they become a liability and certainly if many rounds are fired in a session, they become burdensome. Unless one has an adequate supply of clips loaded for a practice session, they become burdensome during an extended practice session.

Bob Wright

MrBorland · July 4, 2015, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

The use of moon clips and speed loaders is of use only to the para military gunfighter where rapid reloading is required. For us who are sport shooters, revolvers such as the Single Action and double action where single fired rounds may be ejected and fresh live rounds loaded is perfectly adequate.

That's a mighty narrow definition of "sport shooter", Bob. Many a sport shooter compete in IDPA/USPSA/ICORE, and they're not "paramilitary gunfighters" any more than you are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

if many rounds are fired in a session, they become burdensome. Unless one has an adequate supply of clips loaded for a practice session, they become burdensome during an extended practice session.

A good mooner/demooner, such as the BMT is a very nice accessory, and takes the pain out of moons. With a BMT, emptying and recharging moons takes about as much time as recharging speedloaders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheikyourbootie

Moonclips are quicker to load than speed loaders, provided you have a bullet profile that makes them easy to load

The key element in either is practice. Lots of it. Moonclips ain't gonna suddenly ordain anyone with fast reloads in and of themselves. And moonclips work best with shorter fatter rounds.

mavracer · July 4, 2015, 10:07 PM

Quote:

A good mooner/demooner, such as the BMT is a very nice accessory, and takes the pain out of moons. With a BMT, emptying and recharging moons takes about as much time as recharging speedloaders.

Or you can just get some Rimz moon clips they're very easy to load unload.
Plus they won't deform

stubbicatt · July 5, 2015, 06:56 AM

If folks don't like to use moon clips, that's fine.

I really enjoy my S&W 22-4 with moon clips. It is so much fun to use, and I wouldn't feel outgunned with one either. Reloads are comparatively fast, and more consistent than those I've tried with a Model 19 and speed loaders.

Best of all, one isn't doing the "pickin' chicken" searching for his empties at the end of the day. They all stay clumped together in a decent sized mass allowing for easy pick up.

Down side is the loading and unloading of the moon clips, but a good tool will help with that.

Bultaco · July 5, 2015, 08:27 AM

The full moon clip is very useful when many full cylinders are going to be fired like in a stage of a match. A proper moon clip tool has always made handling brass afterward much easier for me.
I go to a match with a days worth+ of loaded moon clips and deal with demooning them at home. I have both speed loader fed and moon clip revolvers that I use at matches and I find it much easier to work with the moon clips than to be loading speed loaders in the loading block at the match.
Of course brass recovery is easier with the clips.
With speed loaders you have to get your loaders back and the loose brass. Moon clips are just 1 neat package to find.
If a person is plinking or hunting then speed loaders and moon clips change things a bit in that you have to change out a complete cylinder rather than just the rounds you fired.

Bob Wright · July 6, 2015, 08:42 PM

Quote:

That's a mighty narrow definition of "sport shooter", Bob. Many a sport shooter compete in IDPA/USPSA/ICORE, and they're not "paramilitary gunfighters" any more than you are.

They're about as much a sport shooter as the National Guardsmen who practice their "sport" at National Guard camp. It's combat shooting, pure and simple.

Bob Wright

MrBorland · July 6, 2015, 09:06 PM

ok, sure, Bob. Thanks for setting us straight.

James K · July 6, 2015, 09:22 PM

I disagree with Bob, but for a different reason. IMHO, those gun games have as much relation to combat as pedal cars do to the Daytona 500. They are sports, pure and simple, and fun. Of course they help the competitor become proficient in the use of a gun, the same as Bob's bullseye pistol does. But they have about the same relationship to combat.

Jim

July 4, 2015, 02:04 AM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	What doors do moonclips open and.... ... when are they applicable? By that I mean what ammo can the be used with and what is the advantage over speed-loaders? What is the disadvantage? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

July 4, 2015, 02:30 AM	#2
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	Advantages- they are handy if you have a revolver that is designed to handle them. Disadvantages- there aren't a lot of revolvers that are designed to handle them. Over here, folks might be inclined to modify their revolvers to make use of moon clips for rimmed ctgs such as .38, .357, .41, .45 Long Colt. I guess they do this for some advantage to whatever sport competition they may be engaged in. Here, the back side of the cylinder must be machined down to allow for the extra space of the clip which the rim would then ride on. However, the moon clip was intended to be used with rimless ctgs. (Look up the history of the 1917 S&W and 1917 Colt pistols.) Anyway, they make rimless ctgs most convenient to get out of the cylinder since the ejector star won't be of much use without a rim. A very few early 1917's did not have a step within each of the 6 cylinder holes and the ctg would fall out the noisy end or not stay put whilest being struck by the firing pin. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

July 4, 2015, 03:01 AM	#4
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	Sorry 'bout that Dale. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

July 4, 2015, 12:04 PM	#5
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Does cutting one's cylinder for moonclips, but then not using them somehow mean unsupported case heads or something? If not, then how come all revolvers don't come pre-cut for clips? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly. Last edited by Pond, James Pond; July 4, 2015 at 12:41 PM.

July 4, 2015, 03:24 PM	#8
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	thought about getting a 9mm LCR to go with my glock carry, but is there one person here who actually carries one or two moon clips with 9mm? Seems way more inconvenient that flat speed loaders. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

July 4, 2015, 02:41 AM	#3
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,312	Well 10-96 beat me to it and did a fine job too but I typed and typed on my reply so I'm posting it anyway. Okay, I’ll step up and state the really obvious points (cause that’s all I know) and then let the more knowledgeable folk here fill in the subtleties of the devices. Moon clips: https://www.google.com/search?q=moon...IKPAK5eq9Rg%3D Moon clips are for revolvers with swing out cylinders or top break cylinders that allow them to eject rimless cartridges. The most popular moon clips are for 9mm and .45 ACP. Moon clips are faster than speed loaders. Watch Jerry Miculek on youtube use them. Revolvers CAN load and fire rimless cartridges if the cylinder is machined so that the cartridges headspace on the case mouth, that is, the cartridge drops into the cylinder and the case mouth hits the slightly smaller diameter part of the cylinder. Now the cartridge cannot go farther. When the cylinder is closed and the gun fired the firing pin hits the primer the cartridge will go off. Without the moon clips though you have to use something to poke the empty cases out of the cylinder. The star extractor has nothing to push against since the rimless cartridges have no rims. The moon clips hold the cartridges. There are full moon clips and half moon clips. There have been some clever revolver designs that do eject rimless cartridges but they aren’t very common. There have been some modifications where spring wire is put around the star extractor so that the revolver can eject rimless cartridges but again they aren’t very common. Speed loaders can drop cartridges into a cylinder but they don’t help with extracting the fired cases from the cyclinder.

July 4, 2015, 03:39 PM	#9
Slimjim9 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2015 Posts: 783	If you're carrying the LCR9 as a BUG to the Glock, you wouldn't worry about reload of the LCR. You'd almost certainly be toast by that point. But you could do one reload with a speed strip as you can fire the LCR9 without moon clips - just can't extract quickly.

July 4, 2015, 03:45 PM	#10
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	No, wasn't thinking of when it was a BUG to glock, but when carrying it alone on hot summer days. More about ammo compatibility. But good to note that it can be shot without a clip minus the extraction problem. Will remember to carry a pen or pencil! __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail" Last edited by HighValleyRanch; July 4, 2015 at 04:05 PM.

July 4, 2015, 04:12 PM	#13
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	The reason all revolvers are not cut for moon clips...is most revolver cartridges are "rimmed" cases...and they don't need moon clips ( .357 mag as an example ).... its only the "rimless cases" like .45 acp ...or 9mm ...that need moon clips.../ but in a model 25 S&W that is chambered in .45 acp you always have the option of shooting a .45 Auto Rim as well - without moon clips.

July 4, 2015, 04:15 PM	#14
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I don't like fussing with moon clips...to me they are just a hassle to load / but in the right hands, like Jerry Miculek, they are certainly quicker to use than any other kind of speed loader I've ever seen....

July 4, 2015, 04:16 PM	#15
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	But you can use moonclips on rimmed cases like .44s, no? Seems like it would be a good feature. Loading my .44 with moonclips would be cool and quick!! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

July 4, 2015, 04:34 PM	#16
Sheikyourbootie Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2010 Posts: 379	Moonclips are quicker to load than speed loaders, provided you have a bullet profile that makes them easy to load. Rimmed cartridges work just fine so long as your cylinder is milled to accept moon clips. For the 627 buy the TK moonclips. They are thicker and easier to use than the wimpy factory moon clips. Also, 5 star makes a great 8 shot speed loader. If the gun is for carry/hunting the speed loaders are not going to get bent like moon clips can.

July 4, 2015, 04:40 PM	#17
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The old revolvers, like the Colt and S&W 1917 models were converted to use rimless cartridges with moon clips by cutting down the rear of the cylinder. So to use a cartridge that had the same length without clips required a thick rim to make up for the thickness of both the rim and the clip, hence the .45 Auto Rim. But modern revolvers made to use clips with rimmed cartridges, like .38 Special and .357 Magnum, have only part of the cylinder cut away, so that there is still support for the case rim, while still allowing for the advantages of a clip. The clip is thin, so the reduced area of support for the case does not extend far enough forward to be beyond the case internal web, so the case will not blow out. But only a relatively few users want to go to clips for rimmed cartridges, so there is no mass demand for the additional cost of making all revolvers to accept clips. A disadvantage of using clips with rimmed cases is that the groove in the case ahead of the rim was put there for use by the loading machines. It is not very deep and so the clip does not hold the cartridges very firmly, plus not all makes of ammunition have it. Jim

July 4, 2015, 08:10 PM	#18
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	The use of moon clips and speed loaders is of use only to the para military gunfighter where rapid reloading is required. For us who are sport shooters, revolvers such as the Single Action and double action where single fired rounds may be ejected and fresh live rounds loaded is perfectly adequate. Subject to being bent, they become a liability and certainly if many rounds are fired in a session, they become burdensome. Unless one has an adequate supply of clips loaded for a practice session, they become burdensome during an extended practice session. Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

July 5, 2015, 06:56 AM	#21
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	If folks don't like to use moon clips, that's fine. I really enjoy my S&W 22-4 with moon clips. It is so much fun to use, and I wouldn't feel outgunned with one either. Reloads are comparatively fast, and more consistent than those I've tried with a Model 19 and speed loaders. Best of all, one isn't doing the "pickin' chicken" searching for his empties at the end of the day. They all stay clumped together in a decent sized mass allowing for easy pick up. Down side is the loading and unloading of the moon clips, but a good tool will help with that.

July 5, 2015, 08:27 AM	#22
Bultaco Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2013 Location: Western Co. Posts: 156	The full moon clip is very useful when many full cylinders are going to be fired like in a stage of a match. A proper moon clip tool has always made handling brass afterward much easier for me. I go to a match with a days worth+ of loaded moon clips and deal with demooning them at home. I have both speed loader fed and moon clip revolvers that I use at matches and I find it much easier to work with the moon clips than to be loading speed loaders in the loading block at the match. Of course brass recovery is easier with the clips. With speed loaders you have to get your loaders back and the loose brass. Moon clips are just 1 neat package to find. If a person is plinking or hunting then speed loaders and moon clips change things a bit in that you have to change out a complete cylinder rather than just the rounds you fired. __________________ Joshua 1:9

July 6, 2015, 09:06 PM	#24
MrBorland Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 2,614	ok, sure, Bob. Thanks for setting us straight.

July 6, 2015, 09:22 PM	#25
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I disagree with Bob, but for a different reason. IMHO, those gun games have as much relation to combat as pedal cars do to the Daytona 500. They are sports, pure and simple, and fun. Of course they help the competitor become proficient in the use of a gun, the same as Bob's bullseye pistol does. But they have about the same relationship to combat. Jim