Did I Do Right? - Page 2

ltc444 · October 13, 2011, 07:49 AM

It was proper, out of courtesy and for your own safety, to inform the officer that you were armed.

It is unclear if you allowed the officer to enter your home.

Personnally, I would have ascertained that he was an officer. Uniform and marked patrol car.

Removed my weapon, answered the door, stepped outside and closed the door to my home therebye barring entrance to my home.

Police have the right to search for weapons in order to protect their safety. This right has been expanded to include rooms adjecant to the immediate area were the interview is taking place. Since these safety searchs are legal anything found may be used against you as the discovery is incident to a lawful search.

Many things, especially with the child safety laws, are innocent but may be construed to be illegal.

No matter how innocent the interview appears, it is a formal legal matter and any statements made can be/will be held against you.

I think you were extremely lucky.

Patriot86 · October 13, 2011, 12:18 PM

Regardless of the law I think you did the right thing, if the officer shot you for whatever reason he wanted and you were armed odds are he would get off, regardless of the circumstances. IMO informing an officer you are armed especially in a close contact situation like yours is simple self preservation. You don't know if the cop is a good cop, or if he is one of those rogue roid rage guys like in that Ohio CCW encounter video. To be fair, the cop doesn't know the same about you either; so it is probably best the officer knows you are armed and can have you do what HE feels comfortable with.

Hardcase · October 13, 2011, 01:45 PM

I'm with 44 AMP. You run across situations every single day in which you choose to exercise or not exercise your rights. You've got the right to speak your mind and say darned near anything you want, without fear of reprisal from the government. But we don't say everything that we're thinking because we are, generally speaking, pragmatic people.

Same with the situation here. A little pragmatism goes a long way. Or, as my grandmother used to say (ad nauseum), "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

NJgunowner · October 13, 2011, 02:48 PM

Just seems like a good way to avoid misunderstandings to me. I'm sure the officer appreciated the way you handled it. It showed a degree of respect, and showed it wasn't going to be "one of those" discussions.

I know some on here would argue and fight with the officer, not disclose that they are carrying etc, but most of my interactions have been pretty good with law enforcement. I've only had one or two try and treat me like crap, and I disabused them of that notion in short order.

SHNOMIDO · October 13, 2011, 02:58 PM

Being in Illinois, and having to practice the much envied "Illinois carry" (as in, in your house) If a cop ever knocked on my door, I would behave exactly like you did.

Officer, im legally carrying a legal pistol, how would you like me to proceed? I can go put it away, unload it in front of you, or we could just ignore it.

Point is, were on the right side of the law. Nothing wrong with not scaring the crap out of a police officer. In a perfect world they'd be able to assume you're not gonna do anything, but this isnt a perfect world for gun owners or police.

blume357 · October 14, 2011, 04:12 PM

WHAT ABOUT YOUR SAFETY.... what if you don't feel safe with the cop being armed....

the logic of 'for the officer's safety doesn't work for me'... if he or she needs protection then they better call for backup and get those papers from a judge I mentioned. THIS was a person's HOME! I guess the poster should have let the cop search their house and check on all the weapons as well as all the prescriptions in the medicine cabinet as well as anything that might be stored in their computer... that's where some of this thinking leads to.

NJgunowner · October 14, 2011, 04:16 PM

Your job isn't dealing with criminals.

Let's put it another way. It really hard to take the bullets out of the body and put them back in the gun AFTER the misunderstanding. It isn't a perfect world, but in a perfect world we wouldn't have criminals or need police.

gc70 · October 14, 2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

I have not read the laws of all those states that require notification, but those I have read did not differentiate between being in the carrier's home and being outside of ones own premises. The purpose of those laws is to protect (supposedly) the officers against a sneak attack by someone carrying a concealed weapon. The fact you are in your home doesn't invalidate the purpose and intent of the law.

I disagree with this assessment.

North Carolina does require notification under the concealed carry statute (§14‑415.11(a)).

NC law generally prohibits carrying a concealed handgun (§14‑269(a1)), except: (1) on a person's own premises OR; (2) if the person has a concealed handgun permit issued under §14‑415. So a person with a concealed handgun permit has two legal paths for concealed carry on their own premises - either by using the premises provision of §14‑269 or the permit provision of §14‑415.

The permit statute (§14‑415) contains no specific language to invalidate the premises statute (§14‑269) for permit holders. And the legislature knows how to be precise in scope, because §14‑415(c) does prohibit carrying a concealed handgun, with or without a permit, while consuming alcohol. Therefore, a person on their own premises can carry under the premises statute and there is no obligation to inform.

blume357 · October 15, 2011, 04:55 PM

First, we don't know what state the original poster was in....

and in reference to a comment above that about how I don't have to deal with criminals, which the police do. yes, they do but does that mean that a law abiding citizen has to give up their constitutional rights because a police officer has to deal with criminals... I stand by my point that submitting to stuff like this in your home leads to really really bad things...

"for the officers safety" is one of those bogus catch phrases that 'they' like to use these days... just like "it's for the children". sounds real good until it's you who has lost his rights and is taking the free ride to camp.

raisitup · October 15, 2011, 07:32 PM

I think if I were OP I would answer the door, cop asks to speak to me, I tell him to hang on one moment, close the door, go secure my firearm, come back to the door, open it and walk outside to speak to the cop on the porch.

Ryan

msb45 · October 16, 2011, 08:07 PM

If you must notify to comply with the law then do so. In PA I don't have to and in a couple of instances I said nothing. Brief how are you doing, have you seen anything type contacts.

If I have to declare it, just say that you have a weapon, where it's at, you're not going to touch it and be done.

Edward429451 · October 16, 2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:

If you're "carrying" while you walk up the sidewalk, and as you unlock your door and step inside, what sort of change has occurred that what WAS "carrying" is no longer "carrying"?

(Good question!). The significant change that has occurred is that you went from public property into private property. At home, you are king and there is 100% expectation of privacy and freedom. Only on the public street will the so called laws take effect on you. On the street, there is a duty to inform.

You have no duty to inform from within your private dwelling. You can easily show yourself to be cooperative without disarming yourself! If the police or whomever purport that you must disarm (in your home) because they do not or can not trust you armed at that point...then red flag you can not trust them either.

Disarming yourself at home for police conveinance sets a bad precedent and should be avoided. If the police wish contact and are distrustful of the armed citizen...let them make an appointment with me where I can come to their office (unarmed) where they have lots of backup so can feel fuzzy, and we can discuss whatever they wish. In this way they respect the citizens home and relations are improved.

OuTcAsT · October 17, 2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

If the police or whomever purport that you must disarm (in your home) because they do not or can not trust you armed at that point...then red flag you can not trust them either.

Precisely ! My home, My rules. If you don't like he fact that I am armed, you are welcome to leave. Thankfully the LE here don't have a problem with this, sometimes it starts a conversation about good places to hunt, etc.

Brian Pfleuger · October 17, 2011, 08:38 AM

Edward429451, that may be true but it's the "next step" in the logic chain.

You can make the argument that the requirement to inform disappears when you enter your home but it's not because you're "not carrying" anymore.

In other words, if you make the decision that you are not required to inform, it implies that you ARE carrying, else there would be nothing to inform.

That's my point. There might be privacy or private property arguments but you aren't magically "not carrying" the gun that's still strapped to your hip just because you cross your threshold.

gc70 · October 17, 2011, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

There might be privacy or private property arguments but you aren't magically "not carrying" the gun that's still strapped to your hip just because you cross your threshold.

Carrying does not change, but the legal authority to carry can certainly change. Nearly every state allows unlicensed carry either in a person's residence or on their own property. If a person can carry in those locations without a license, it would be very difficult to argue that the possession of a license imposes additional obligations on that legal authority (unlicensed carry). Step outside the locations where unlicensed carry is permitted, and the authority to carry comes from a different legal source, possibly involving an obligation to inform.

Edward429451 · October 17, 2011, 09:12 PM

Quote:

You can make the argument that the requirement to inform disappears when you enter your home but it's not because you're "not carrying" anymore.

In a practical sense, one would still be carrying, but in the more important legal sense one is not ccw in their home because it infers a legal state other than totally free in the privacy of my own home or dwelling.

It all depends on circumstances, but for the most part, whether you carry arms or not around your home is none of their business. We should be careful to not let the police in our homes at all, keeping in mind that their job is to spot violations of statute, and legally their eyes can not trespass so if you let them in...anything you say or they see can and will be used against you blah blah blah.

It's not being disrespectful to the Police to be mindful of their goals and authorities and politely declining to play volunteer my rights away and disarm in my own home to discuss a 5 yr olds fight? Give me a break.

On the street it's a different story and it pays to be cooperative, mostly. At home, it pays to say no to the Police.

youngunz4life · October 18, 2011, 12:52 AM

I would've said nothing about my CCW, but I wouldn't have had a problem with unloading my CCW while the Officer is doing his job if he asked. I don't really see how the house bit has anything to do with it - it is the same wherever you are for the most part. When I am in my car, the state law might see that as my 'house' too @ least for legal purposes. Usually when cops come to your house(depending on the situation), they'll ask if you have any weapons on you. He probably just hadn't gotten the chance in this case yet.

all the best

youngunz4life · October 18, 2011, 01:11 AM

Quote:

There might be privacy or private property arguments but you aren't magically "not carrying" the gun that's still strapped to your hip just because you cross your threshold.

Quote:

Carrying does not change, but the legal authority to carry can certainly change. Nearly every state allows unlicensed carry either in a person's residence or on their own property. If a person can carry in those locations without a license, it would be very difficult to argue that the possession of a license imposes additional obligations on that legal authority (unlicensed carry). Step outside the locations where unlicensed carry is permitted, and the authority to carry comes from a different legal source, possibly involving an obligation to inform.

Again, I am not really getting the 'legal authority' bit. A cop can't search my car without probable cause or a warrant either. That doesn't mean he can't Expect an honest response when he/she asks if I have any weapons on me. My CCW says I can carry; yet during that moment my CCW might or might not be unloaded on the top of my car depending on the Officer. At the house, he probably wasn't even forceful and maybe just said the first thing that came to his mond to solve the problem so both he and the homeowner could move on. I mean, the OP let the cop in his house, told him he had a weapon immediately, and didn't seem to have any problem with disarming. His original post leads to the fact that he was sortof in a way askign the cop what he wanted him to do about his CCW. Personally, I don't have any problem with the way the OP handled business; that is not what I am saying. Depending on the state though, the LE could be biased over a kid, gun statement call and then to find out the dad is carrying. stupid I agree if that is the case. It can open up a can of worms though and I don't think he should have to inform here. I would be honest if asked though.

ltc444 · October 18, 2011, 10:36 AM

You appear to miss my point.

By removing the weapon from my person and conducting the interview outside the home, you eliminate all of the issues being discussed.

You prevent an overly aggressive officer from expanding the situation.

Believe it or not Cops LIE. They routinely perjure themselves. They do this with impunity.

All you have to do is review the CAnton ohio thread.

WANT A LCR 22LR · October 18, 2011, 08:27 PM

" It's not being disrespectful to the Police to be mindful of their goals and authorities and politely declining to play volunteer my rights away and disarm in my own home to discuss a 5 yr olds fight? Give me a break.

On the street it's a different story and it pays to be cooperative, mostly. At home, it pays to say no to the Police. "

The 5 yo threatened to have their dad come out and shoot the other kid in the scuffle. By telling the cop they had a gun on then , then disarming, it showed they were non aggressive. It sends the message that the kid mouthed off and the dad was unlikely to actually go out and shoot the other kid. Remember, early on in the conversation the cop does not know if the person in the house is really going to shoot the other kid or not.

Remember the guy on a bus that told someone not to beat their kid then at the next stop the parents friends sprayed the bus with bullets? The cop has to be ready for anything.

Now, the cold dead hands crowd that recommends telling the cop tough s it GOING to get treated as a hostile person with a attitude. ( Hint, the Calvin peeing on something stickers on their truck does nothing to help the cause either )

gc70 · October 18, 2011, 08:52 PM

Quote:

It can open up a can of worms though and I don't think he should have to inform here.

There are two different questions being discussed in this thread: whether it was (or would be) prudent to voluntarily inform the officer in the situation described, or; whether it is legally required to inform an officer if you are carrying in your home or on your property. The answers to those two questions are not necessarily the same.

Shotgun693 · October 18, 2011, 09:22 PM

I've been some kinda Cop for over 34 years. If I'm making some sort of contact with you I'd appreciate knowing that you're armed. IF you seem upset or mad I'd want your gun secured. If not, I don't care if you have it on you. We do have to investigate all complaints no matter have minor they might seem. It what we do. Often real minor stuff gets out of hand without an Officer/Deputy to smooth things out.
I don't know this Officer's Department Policies. He didn't seem to abuse the OP, Asking the Op to disarm himself just to ensure both of their safety could be a good way of controlling the situation until the Officer really knew what was going on.
I will say that knowing your local Officer/Deputy helps when you do have him show up at the door. Make the effort to meet yours if you get the chance.

October 13, 2011, 12:18 PM	#27
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	Regardless of the law I think you did the right thing, if the officer shot you for whatever reason he wanted and you were armed odds are he would get off, regardless of the circumstances. IMO informing an officer you are armed especially in a close contact situation like yours is simple self preservation. You don't know if the cop is a good cop, or if he is one of those rogue roid rage guys like in that Ohio CCW encounter video. To be fair, the cop doesn't know the same about you either; so it is probably best the officer knows you are armed and can have you do what HE feels comfortable with. Last edited by Patriot86; October 13, 2011 at 12:52 PM.

October 13, 2011, 01:45 PM	#28
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	I'm with 44 AMP. You run across situations every single day in which you choose to exercise or not exercise your rights. You've got the right to speak your mind and say darned near anything you want, without fear of reprisal from the government. But we don't say everything that we're thinking because we are, generally speaking, pragmatic people. Same with the situation here. A little pragmatism goes a long way. Or, as my grandmother used to say (ad nauseum), "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

October 16, 2011, 08:07 PM	#36
msb45 Member Join Date: February 27, 2005 Location: TN Posts: 21	If you must notify to comply with the law then do so. In PA I don't have to and in a couple of instances I said nothing. Brief how are you doing, have you seen anything type contacts. If I have to declare it, just say that you have a weapon, where it's at, you're not going to touch it and be done. __________________ "I would advise persisting in our struggle for liberty, though it were revealed that 999 men were to perish, and only one of a thousand to survive and retain his liberty. One such freeman must possess more virtue, and enjoy more happiness, than a thousand slaves." - Samuel Adams - 1774

October 18, 2011, 12:52 AM	#42
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	I would've said nothing about my CCW, but I wouldn't have had a problem with unloading my CCW while the Officer is doing his job if he asked. I don't really see how the house bit has anything to do with it - it is the same wherever you are for the most part. When I am in my car, the state law might see that as my 'house' too @ least for legal purposes. Usually when cops come to your house(depending on the situation), they'll ask if you have any weapons on you. He probably just hadn't gotten the chance in this case yet. all the best __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

October 13, 2011, 07:49 AM	#26
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	It was proper, out of courtesy and for your own safety, to inform the officer that you were armed. It is unclear if you allowed the officer to enter your home. Personnally, I would have ascertained that he was an officer. Uniform and marked patrol car. Removed my weapon, answered the door, stepped outside and closed the door to my home therebye barring entrance to my home. Police have the right to search for weapons in order to protect their safety. This right has been expanded to include rooms adjecant to the immediate area were the interview is taking place. Since these safety searchs are legal anything found may be used against you as the discovery is incident to a lawful search. Many things, especially with the child safety laws, are innocent but may be construed to be illegal. No matter how innocent the interview appears, it is a formal legal matter and any statements made can be/will be held against you. I think you were extremely lucky.

October 13, 2011, 02:48 PM	#29
NJgunowner Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 1,254	Just seems like a good way to avoid misunderstandings to me. I'm sure the officer appreciated the way you handled it. It showed a degree of respect, and showed it wasn't going to be "one of those" discussions. I know some on here would argue and fight with the officer, not disclose that they are carrying etc, but most of my interactions have been pretty good with law enforcement. I've only had one or two try and treat me like crap, and I disabused them of that notion in short order.

October 13, 2011, 02:58 PM	#30
SHNOMIDO Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 423	Being in Illinois, and having to practice the much envied "Illinois carry" (as in, in your house) If a cop ever knocked on my door, I would behave exactly like you did. Officer, im legally carrying a legal pistol, how would you like me to proceed? I can go put it away, unload it in front of you, or we could just ignore it. Point is, were on the right side of the law. Nothing wrong with not scaring the crap out of a police officer. In a perfect world they'd be able to assume you're not gonna do anything, but this isnt a perfect world for gun owners or police.

October 14, 2011, 04:12 PM	#31
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	WHAT ABOUT YOUR SAFETY.... what if you don't feel safe with the cop being armed.... the logic of 'for the officer's safety doesn't work for me'... if he or she needs protection then they better call for backup and get those papers from a judge I mentioned. THIS was a person's HOME! I guess the poster should have let the cop search their house and check on all the weapons as well as all the prescriptions in the medicine cabinet as well as anything that might be stored in their computer... that's where some of this thinking leads to.

October 14, 2011, 04:16 PM	#32
NJgunowner Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 1,254	Your job isn't dealing with criminals. Let's put it another way. It really hard to take the bullets out of the body and put them back in the gun AFTER the misunderstanding. It isn't a perfect world, but in a perfect world we wouldn't have criminals or need police.

October 15, 2011, 04:55 PM	#34
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	First, we don't know what state the original poster was in.... and in reference to a comment above that about how I don't have to deal with criminals, which the police do. yes, they do but does that mean that a law abiding citizen has to give up their constitutional rights because a police officer has to deal with criminals... I stand by my point that submitting to stuff like this in your home leads to really really bad things... "for the officers safety" is one of those bogus catch phrases that 'they' like to use these days... just like "it's for the children". sounds real good until it's you who has lost his rights and is taking the free ride to camp.

October 15, 2011, 07:32 PM	#35
raisitup Member Join Date: January 2, 2010 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 56	I think if I were OP I would answer the door, cop asks to speak to me, I tell him to hang on one moment, close the door, go secure my firearm, come back to the door, open it and walk outside to speak to the cop on the porch. Ryan

October 17, 2011, 08:38 AM	#39
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Edward429451, that may be true but it's the "next step" in the logic chain. You can make the argument that the requirement to inform disappears when you enter your home but it's not because you're "not carrying" anymore. In other words, if you make the decision that you are not required to inform, it implies that you ARE carrying, else there would be nothing to inform. That's my point. There might be privacy or private property arguments but you aren't magically "not carrying" the gun that's still strapped to your hip just because you cross your threshold.

October 18, 2011, 10:36 AM	#44
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	You appear to miss my point. By removing the weapon from my person and conducting the interview outside the home, you eliminate all of the issues being discussed. You prevent an overly aggressive officer from expanding the situation. Believe it or not Cops LIE. They routinely perjure themselves. They do this with impunity. All you have to do is review the CAnton ohio thread.

October 18, 2011, 08:27 PM	#45
WANT A LCR 22LR Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Posts: 389	" It's not being disrespectful to the Police to be mindful of their goals and authorities and politely declining to play volunteer my rights away and disarm in my own home to discuss a 5 yr olds fight? Give me a break. On the street it's a different story and it pays to be cooperative, mostly. At home, it pays to say no to the Police. " The 5 yo threatened to have their dad come out and shoot the other kid in the scuffle. By telling the cop they had a gun on then , then disarming, it showed they were non aggressive. It sends the message that the kid mouthed off and the dad was unlikely to actually go out and shoot the other kid. Remember, early on in the conversation the cop does not know if the person in the house is really going to shoot the other kid or not. Remember the guy on a bus that told someone not to beat their kid then at the next stop the parents friends sprayed the bus with bullets? The cop has to be ready for anything. Now, the cold dead hands crowd that recommends telling the cop tough s it GOING to get treated as a hostile person with a attitude. ( Hint, the Calvin peeing on something stickers on their truck does nothing to help the cause either )

October 18, 2011, 09:22 PM	#47
Shotgun693 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2011 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 959	I've been some kinda Cop for over 34 years. If I'm making some sort of contact with you I'd appreciate knowing that you're armed. IF you seem upset or mad I'd want your gun secured. If not, I don't care if you have it on you. We do have to investigate all complaints no matter have minor they might seem. It what we do. Often real minor stuff gets out of hand without an Officer/Deputy to smooth things out. I don't know this Officer's Department Policies. He didn't seem to abuse the OP, Asking the Op to disarm himself just to ensure both of their safety could be a good way of controlling the situation until the Officer really knew what was going on. I will say that knowing your local Officer/Deputy helps when you do have him show up at the door. Make the effort to meet yours if you get the chance.