tula 45acp case wall blowout.....

[RsqVet]

My understanding of the very tapered nature of the 7.62 x 39 mm case is due to steel not being as elastic as brass thus to ensure extraction. Not that the cases split that often.

I have shot a fair bit of steel case AK ammo of all sorts and have yet to have a split case of note --- I.e. that caused an issue so it got noticed. Not saying there was not one that happened and I did not notice, I am sure I have not looked at every AK case I ahve fired.

Any case that splits and spills burning powder in and around the chamber and case is likely going to be a pain to get out of the chamber.

I suspect the ruskies having made steel 7.62x39 for a number of decades have more perfected the case making than some other rounds, in addition the cross over to military contracts likely keeps quality up a little more than civilian rounds.

I also wonder how the old US Army steel case 45 acp ammo did? Yes we did this in WW II. I recall someone, I think Jeff Cooper mentioning that it had no issues other than having to put a slight amount of oil on the rounds in the mag to ensure cycling.

[Evil Monkey]

I've had case few splits with wolf 7.62x39mm in my wasr10 ak. The only way I found out was because I picked up some casings from the ground. They never got stuck.

I've had one tula 223 case split in my AR. Took a steel rod to knock it out because the extractor broke the rim right off.

[feets]

You should seriously consider shooting higher quality ammunition.

Steel cases are used because it's FAR cheaper than brass. Harder on the manufacturing tooling but tons cheaper in the long run.

A split case is case failure. It can fail for any number of reasons. Poor choice of material, loose manufacturing tolerances, poor design allowing too thin of a case, over pressure charge, oversize bullet, oversize chamber, firing out of battery, and the list goes on.

Judging by the number of case failures I must say that the quality control at the manufacturing level is suspect at best. They are not inspecting the raw material with tight enough standards or frequency. The vendor is obviously giving them substandard material and they are running it through the plant. Naturally, this assumes that the design of the case and production tolerances are acceptable.

They don't care if it blows the fingers off a shooter's hand, sends a thousand dollar gun high order, or simply goes bang. They got that American dollar and plan on taking more.

Not only am I an avid sport shooter, I'm also a quality control expert at a manufacturing level.

I'll keep as much of my money as possible in this country.

I guess that makes me an idiot. durrr...

[polyphemus]

I'll keep as much of my money as possible in this country

Believe or not I get in trouble all the time for saying things like that.
You are not an idiot.

[TunnelRat]

In the past 3.5 years I have fired ~37,000 of factory ammo. I have not had one split case. Cross my heart and hope to die.

[polyphemus]

In the rare instance I get one of those instead of calling a lawyer I figure Nature is trying to tell me something so I toss it in the scrap bin.

[Evil Monkey]

They are not inspecting the raw material with tight enough standards or frequency.

I don't they can do anything. This is the nature of steel casings. This is why I believe the Russian standardized military ammunition is designed with parameters that account for the problems encountered with steel as a casing material.

Western standardized ammo is not designed around steel as a case material.


On another note, you guys realize there is no tula or wolf 40sw available anymore? Every website is completely out except for 45acp and 9mm.

Something is going on.

[feets]

I don't they can do anything. This is the nature of steel casings. This is why I believe the Russian standardized military ammunition is designed with parameters that account for the problems encountered with steel as a casing material.

That is NOT the nature of steel casings. That is the nature of loose design tolerances, poor quality control, and suspect material being used.

IT'S CHEAP AMMO. Designed cheap. Built cheap. They can't make the same money if they tighten up design, use better steels, and thicker walled cases.
It's all about the money.

Hornady makes steel cased ammo using higher quality materials, proper design, and strict quality control. It does not have the case failure rate as the cheap import junk. It's made for the IDPA, three gun, and other competitors who choose buying ammo over loading it.

Western standardized ammo is not designed around steel as a case material.

Western ammo is generally far superior to the cheap imported stuff. Quality control, materials, and design are all much better. These companies are easily reached by lawyers so they have to make better stuff than the Russian and Chinese companies.

On another note, you guys realize there is no tula or wolf 40sw available anymore? Every website is completely out except for 45acp and 9mm.

Something is going on.

Could it be the import ban on Russian arms and ammunition? Everybody snapped up all that cheap junk. I, for one, don't miss seeing it on the shelf.


I'm a reloader and all the steel cases are good for is tossing in the scrap metal pile.

[Evil Monkey]

and thicker walled cases

You really can't do that with pistol cartridges. There's no room for thicker walls.

Hornady makes steel cased ammo using higher quality materials, proper design, and strict quality control. It does not have the case failure rate as the cheap import junk.

I'm pretty sure those Hornady casings are imported. It does not have a high failure rate because barely anybody shoots hornady.

Western ammo is generally far superior to the cheap imported stuff. Quality control, materials, and design are all much better. These companies are easily reached by lawyers so they have to make better stuff than the Russian and Chinese companies.

What I meant to say was western ammo is based on brass and not steel. So the transition from brass to steel may cause problems.

Could it be the import ban on Russian arms and ammunition?

There's no ban on ammo.

[Uncle Malice]

You really can't do that with pistol cartridges. There's no room for thicker walls.

What in the world are you talking about? Most modern cartridges have plenty of room for thicker walls. Very few get filled to the brim with powder... that's why it's possible to have them over/double charged causing the issues that we have been discussing in this thread. The 45acp uses barely half of the available space - hence the development of the 45GAP.

barely anybody shoots hornady

lol okay.

I don't know the source of their steel casings, but to say barely anybody shoots Hornady is laughable.

[Evil Monkey]

What in the world are you talking about? Most modern cartridges have plenty of room for thicker walls. Very few get filled to the brim with powder... that's why it's possible to have them over/double charged causing the issues that we have been discussing in this thread. The 45acp uses barely half of the available space - hence the development of the 45GAP.

Have you seen the bulge on 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp factory ammo? When the round is seated into the casing, the casing slightly bulges out where the base of the bullet would be. There is NO ROOM for a thicker case wall, unless you're talking about rifle ammo, then I agree.

but to say barely anybody shoots Hornady is laughable.

Nobody shoots Hornady steel cased ammo as much as tula/wolf/barnual/etc.....


I also just came back from the range. I fired 200rds of tula 40sw in my M&P40 with no problems, for what it's worth......

[Uncle Malice]

Have you seen the bulge on 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp factory ammo? When the round is seated into the casing, the casing slightly bulges out where the base of the bullet would be. There is NO ROOM for a thicker case wall, unless you're talking about rifle ammo, then I agree.

The thicker walls are below where the bullet seats. This is actually a pretty common thing. For example, 45acp brass was thickened up in order to support 45 super. Same thing with 40 super.

I also just came back from the range. I fired 200rds of tula 40sw in my M&P40 with no problems, for what it's worth......

The reason I don't shoot steel cased ammo isn't because of the steel case. I could care less about that - other than it's tolerances often suck. I had a big batch of Tula 45 some 5 years ago or so and the rounds wouldn't even load into a P220 magazine.

The reason I don't shoot steel case is because of the bi-metal jacketed bullets. They are not copper jacketed and wear out the rifling much faster than copper jacketed bullets. There is not enough cost savings in that junk for me to justify it. It's often MORE expensive than a place like Freedom Munitions who provides brass cased, copper jacketed bullets.

For example:

bulkammo.com sells Tula 40s&w 180gr for $135(plus shipping) for 500rds

freedommunitions.com has 500rds of 180gr 40s&w for $116 (with free shipping over $199) - actually on special today for $106!

With prices like that, why are you shooting Tula?

[Evil Monkey]

They are not copper jacketed and wear out the rifling much faster than copper jacketed bullets. There is not enough cost savings in that junk for me to justify it

ehhh.........the jacket is soft steel. M&P40 barrels run under $90. It would take like over $1,500 worth of ammo before the barrel became crap. I aint worried about it.

With prices like that, why are you shooting Tula?

because of wal mart.

[Uncle Malice]

because of wal mart.

Ah, there you go. I never buy ammo locally. Haven't even looked since the crash last year when you couldn't get it anywhere. I just order from Freedom once a month and I'm all set.

[Rogervzv]

Tula is crap ammo and not good for your gun.

I don't shoot Tula in my firearms because I respect my firearms and try not to screw them up.

Your mileage may vary.

[Mike Irwin]

"They are not copper jacketed and wear out the rifling much faster than copper jacketed bullets."

Hum....

Gilding metal, the alloy used for "copper jacketed" bullets, has a Brinell hardness around 114.

Mild steel has a Brinell hardness in the range of 120.


That's not a lot of difference, and in the environment of a firearms barrel, you're going to be able to shoot a LOT of either kind of ammunition before you wear out the rifling.

[Uncle Malice]

That's not a lot of difference, and in the environment of a firearms barrel, you're going to be able to shoot a LOT of either kind of ammunition before you wear out the rifling.

Take a look at this test.

Granted, they are doing the tests with ar-15 barrels, but the results speak for themselves.

As indicated by accuracy testing, the steel cased/bimetal jacketed ammunition caused accelerated wear to the inside of their respective bores. While the barrel of the Federal carbine had plenty of life left, even after 10,000 rounds at extremely high rates of fire, the Wolf and Brown Bear barrels were subjected to the same rates of fire and were completely “shot out” by 6,000 rounds.

At the end of the test, the chrome lining of the Wolf and Brown Bear barrels was almost gone from the throat forward, and the barrels had effectively become smoothbores, with the rifling near the muzzles acting only as a mild suggestion on the projectiles. A throat erosion gauge could be dropped into the bore from the muzzle end with absolutely no resistance.

No thanks.

[Mike Irwin]

The results speak for something, but there's absolutely no conclusive proof that the results speak for mild-steel jacketed bullets being the primary wear factor.

The type of propellant could have also been a significant contributing factor. Some propellants have much higher flame temperatures and are much more errosive. Early Cordite is a good example. It had a reputation for washing out barrels in short order, which required a change in not only the rifling type (from shallow Metford rifling to deeper, traditional Enfield rifling) but also in the barrel steel being used AND the Cordite formula to reduce its flame temperature.

In order to remove that concern, you'd need to do a whole new round of testing and swap bullets.


But, we're also talking about handguns in this thread, vs. rifles. That's a whole different class of propellant being used in cartridges that are operating at, in some cases, 1/3 the chamber pressure of rifles.

I have a funny feeling that few of us are going to be shooting a particular handgun enough with steel-jacketed ammo to wear out the barrel.

[Uncle Malice]

Fair enough.

I think my point still stands that I just don't see any reason to shoot the steel case stuff, even if it's only mildly more abrasive - when you can get good quality brass ammo for cheaper prices.

[Evil Monkey]

Tula is crap ammo and not good for your gun.

Have you not been reading this thread? It's more complicated than you think.

[Mike Irwin]

"the steel case stuff"

Remember, we're talking primarily about ammo with BULLETS with mild-steel jackets.

Steel-cased ammo with gilding metal jacketed bullets? I don't think those would be an issue at all.


"when you can get good quality brass ammo for cheaper prices."

Well yeah, but remember, we're coming out of (hopefully) a long stretch when we've not had the opportunity to be as choosy as we'd like to be.

That said, I've got probably 5 to 7 thousand rounds through my Chinese SKS, with 99.9999% of it being surplus military ammo from Russia and China, and most of it with mild steel bullets.

It's still humming along, giving the same accuracy it always did.

[Uncle Malice]

Steel-cased ammo with gilding metal jacketed bullets? I don't think those would be an issue at all.

I would tend to agree with you.

The only 2 guns that I have had issues with steel case ammo with are my P220 Stainless Elite because the rounds simply wouldn't load into the magazine. the OAL was simply too large. I could cram them in the there with the UPLULA, but loading by hand was nearly impossible. Once loaded, it would FTF about 50% because of the friction it just would load the round in time.

Additionally, my Daniel Defense will not cycle Wolf or Tula about 75% of the time. It will fire and eject the the spent casing but it does not have enough power to push the bolt far enough to the rear to catch the next round. From what I understand, this is because DD uses standard diameter gas tubes while the majority of commercial AR manufacturers use oversized gas tubes and as such tend to over gas the gun. I don't know if it's true but it makes sense to me. My DD has been absolutely 100% reliable with anything brass cased, but steel cased is a no-go in that gun.

Now, you may have seen the Geco ammo from Switzerland. It comes in a red and black box. This ammo is brass cased but still has a bimetal jacket. I have shot quite a bit of it and it has been 100% reliable for me. I don't shoot it all too often though because my normal range is an indoor range(Scottsdale Gun Club) and they do not allow any bimetal jacketed bullets due to sparks and (supposedly) it's more damaging to the backstop.

If I could find cheap steel cased ammo that ran regular copper jackets, I would give it a shot. If it was reliable, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. The Blazer aluminum I've tried runs quite well.