Arbor Ding?

red96ta · September 15, 2012, 01:02 PM

Noticed after shooting the Pietta '60 that I've developed a ding where the top of the cylinder is located on the arbor...is this normal?

Hawg · September 15, 2012, 05:48 PM

No, its not mormal. Where is it in relation to the front of the cylinder?

Ideal Tool · September 15, 2012, 06:16 PM

Hello, red96ta. It looks to be just in back of locating pins in frame front...Have a look at the inside of barrel arbor hole..there could be a sharp burr or edge.

red96ta · September 15, 2012, 07:02 PM

Thanks guys...it's a little disconcerting. I took a look at the arbor hole and it appears to be in great shape along with the locating holes. I went as far as to flash a light down the barrel on full cock to make sure that everything was lining up properly and it's dead on. The wedge fits nicely in the revolver too.

Here's another shot with the cylinder on and in half cock. In full cock, it's exactly on the mark which leads me to believe that it's the cylinder.

Also, here's a shot down the arbor hole if that helps...

Hawg · September 15, 2012, 07:26 PM

If it was the cylinder it would be ringed all the way around. Could it have been there when you got it?

Ideal Tool · September 15, 2012, 07:29 PM

Hello, red96ta..are you absolutly certain it wasn't on there when you purchased the gun? That arbor has case-colors..it's surface is glass hard..but only a few .001"'s of an inch deep. A ding would have pushed metal surface in..but color wouldn't have changed..that mark almost looks like a file cut..the metal is bright..can't imagine a properly fitted cyl. being able to cock that much. Many times over the years, after I have had a brand new gun..or even a used one..I will find little marks or dings I never noticed before.."How'd that get there"? Could this be the case?

Doc Hoy · September 15, 2012, 07:59 PM

The mark is not of the character which might be produced by a deformity of the cylinder.

The deformity in the cylinder which would make a mark of the depth shown would make the pistol difficult to assemble and disassemble (Note the from the appearance in the photo that the mark is made on a part of the arbor which is of lesser diameter than the end of the arbor where the wedge goes through.) not to mention difficult to cycle. If it were the cylinder making the mark, because of a burr or deformity which extended far enough to mark the arbor as has been done, the cylinder would never go onto the arbor.

It is entirely possible but (IMO) unlikely that the cylinder made the mark by impacting and pressing against the arbor at that spot during loading (if you load with the lever and not a press). The lever might be pushing the arbor down against the top of the arbor. This might happen if the cylinder was a bad fit for the arbor. If this were true you might notice six deformities in the cylinder right at the forward rim of the arbor hole. I don't think this is the case, because of two things. 1. The arbor to cylinder fit would have to be way off and noticable to produce such a mark in the arbor. 2) The character of the mark seem to be completely wrong for even this possibility.

It appears (IMO) to be a mark deliberately placed on the arbor perhaps to mark the length of the cylinder for example as the owner were fitting a replacement cylinder.

Smokin'Joe · September 15, 2012, 09:00 PM

Hot gases from the burning powder cut into the arbor like a cutting torch. This is perfectly normal. All my Colt clones exhibit this feature.

red96ta · September 15, 2012, 09:02 PM

are you absolutly certain it wasn't on there when you purchased the gun?

Well, uh, I don't know...It's kinda like buying a new car only to discover something strange only after the first thorough carwash. It could be that it was there the whole time from the factory and I never noticed it until breaking it down for a cleaning, since cleaning (like a carwash) is kinda an intimate moment between man and machine where you learn little intricacies of the machine.

Beagle333 · September 15, 2012, 09:35 PM

Smokin'Joe is right. It's gas cutting. Mine get that way too.

Hellgate · September 15, 2012, 10:20 PM

That is one way of telling how much the gun has been shot. With that "lesion", anyone telling you the gun is NIB is a liar. I always look for the amount of gas cutting to tell how much the gun has been shot. It is a normal "wear & tear". All of my guns have it depending on how many rounds I have put through them and at what charge.

red96ta · September 15, 2012, 10:37 PM

Looks like the problem is solved! Yep, looks like a hot gas burn just like mine. You would think that after a couple hundred rounds it would cut right through the arbor.

Ideal Tool · September 15, 2012, 10:42 PM

Wow! Thanks beagle333 for pics..I never would have thought B.P. would gas-cut like that! But on 2nd. thought..it does make sense...In my 1863 percussion Shilo Sharps..the nipple base very soon gets a groove cut in it from gas making that 90 deg. turn. Now I'm gonna have to check my arbors!

Fingers McGee · September 15, 2012, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokin joe

Hot gases from the burning powder cut into the arbor like a cutting torch. This is perfectly normal. All my Colt clones exhibit this feature

All of my C&Bs have one. At least the ones I shoot.

Beagle333 · September 15, 2012, 11:00 PM

Here's a closer look. (It gets hot in that area.)

Chowmif16 · September 16, 2012, 12:49 AM

All mine have that too. Now I know why!
Cheers,

robhof · September 16, 2012, 02:48 PM

I have a Dan Wesson Supermag 357 that Ruger discontinued their version because of the flame cutting of the top strap and throat erosion, Dw just offered a spare barrel and after years of ram shooting competition, it was found to be a self stopping problem, even many of the old Rugers are still competing, the gas burning process also heat hardens the area and stops after a short time, at least that's what the DW smith that I talked to when I got my gun said. I've had it since 1992 and shot many rounds through it and it still hasn't gotten any worse than when I 1st got it used. I would believe this would also apply to the Colts as cut arbors would be a problem with many used in CAS competition for years.

Hawg · September 16, 2012, 06:32 PM

I guess I'm the one that doesn't pay attention cuz mine have it too. I just never noticed it.

Doc Hoy · September 17, 2012, 02:39 AM

A day is not wasted if you have learned something.

Noz · September 17, 2012, 09:29 AM

All of my 1860 Army Piettas that have any shooting time at all show this mark.
I always attributed it to gas cutting.

arcticap · September 17, 2012, 03:14 PM

Remington cylinder pins can show signs of gas cutting too because their cylinder face is flat and doesn't have a gas bushing. But the gas cutting is usually not nearly as deep as with the Colts. However the Colts are known to be less affected by fouling due to their slightly looser tolerances.

Strafer Gott · September 17, 2012, 03:34 PM

Dang, ain't this mentioned in the "sticky". I feel just green as grass. Now I need to drag all mine out and look. I think we got a new way to grade the piece!

Roshi · September 17, 2012, 07:52 PM

I'll be watching my new 1851 Navy closely. Only have about 60 rounds downrange so far.

brazosdave · September 18, 2012, 12:51 AM

at what point does this render the pistol unfireable? Like to know for future reference. My 1860 has just a little bit of a line, not hardly even noticeable. Thanks for bringing this to the masses, though guys. I would never have known about this.

Ideal Tool · September 18, 2012, 01:09 AM

Hello everyone, Just a thought..the older Colt S.A.A. had the removable cyl. bushing. These have a groove around dia..which I supposed to allow removal by fingernails..but I wonder if this groove also is machined there to reduce gas cutting?..Didn't Colt in fact call this area the "gas ring"?

September 15, 2012, 01:02 PM	#1
red96ta Member Join Date: July 6, 2012 Posts: 50	Arbor Ding? Noticed after shooting the Pietta '60 that I've developed a ding where the top of the cylinder is located on the arbor...is this normal?

September 15, 2012, 07:59 PM	#7
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Ideal plus one The mark is not of the character which might be produced by a deformity of the cylinder. The deformity in the cylinder which would make a mark of the depth shown would make the pistol difficult to assemble and disassemble (Note the from the appearance in the photo that the mark is made on a part of the arbor which is of lesser diameter than the end of the arbor where the wedge goes through.) not to mention difficult to cycle. If it were the cylinder making the mark, because of a burr or deformity which extended far enough to mark the arbor as has been done, the cylinder would never go onto the arbor. It is entirely possible but (IMO) unlikely that the cylinder made the mark by impacting and pressing against the arbor at that spot during loading (if you load with the lever and not a press). The lever might be pushing the arbor down against the top of the arbor. This might happen if the cylinder was a bad fit for the arbor. If this were true you might notice six deformities in the cylinder right at the forward rim of the arbor hole. I don't think this is the case, because of two things. 1. The arbor to cylinder fit would have to be way off and noticable to produce such a mark in the arbor. 2) The character of the mark seem to be completely wrong for even this possibility. It appears (IMO) to be a mark deliberately placed on the arbor perhaps to mark the length of the cylinder for example as the owner were fitting a replacement cylinder. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; September 15, 2012 at 08:09 PM.

September 15, 2012, 09:35 PM	#10
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	Smokin'Joe is right. It's gas cutting. Mine get that way too. Last edited by Beagle333; September 15, 2012 at 09:38 PM. Reason: added pic

September 15, 2012, 10:20 PM	#11
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	That is one way of telling how much the gun has been shot. With that "lesion", anyone telling you the gun is NIB is a liar. I always look for the amount of gas cutting to tell how much the gun has been shot. It is a normal "wear & tear". All of my guns have it depending on how many rounds I have put through them and at what charge. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

September 16, 2012, 12:49 AM	#16
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Learn something every day! All mine have that too. Now I know why! Cheers, __________________ Chowmi

September 15, 2012, 05:48 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	No, its not mormal. Where is it in relation to the front of the cylinder?

September 15, 2012, 06:16 PM	#3
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, red96ta. It looks to be just in back of locating pins in frame front...Have a look at the inside of barrel arbor hole..there could be a sharp burr or edge.

September 15, 2012, 07:02 PM	#4
red96ta Member Join Date: July 6, 2012 Posts: 50	Thanks guys...it's a little disconcerting. I took a look at the arbor hole and it appears to be in great shape along with the locating holes. I went as far as to flash a light down the barrel on full cock to make sure that everything was lining up properly and it's dead on. The wedge fits nicely in the revolver too. Here's another shot with the cylinder on and in half cock. In full cock, it's exactly on the mark which leads me to believe that it's the cylinder. Also, here's a shot down the arbor hole if that helps...

September 15, 2012, 07:26 PM	#5
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	If it was the cylinder it would be ringed all the way around. Could it have been there when you got it?

September 15, 2012, 07:29 PM	#6
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, red96ta..are you absolutly certain it wasn't on there when you purchased the gun? That arbor has case-colors..it's surface is glass hard..but only a few .001"'s of an inch deep. A ding would have pushed metal surface in..but color wouldn't have changed..that mark almost looks like a file cut..the metal is bright..can't imagine a properly fitted cyl. being able to cock that much. Many times over the years, after I have had a brand new gun..or even a used one..I will find little marks or dings I never noticed before.."How'd that get there"? Could this be the case?

September 15, 2012, 09:00 PM	#8
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 211	Hot gases from the burning powder cut into the arbor like a cutting torch. This is perfectly normal. All my Colt clones exhibit this feature.

September 15, 2012, 09:02 PM	#9
red96ta Member Join Date: July 6, 2012 Posts: 50	are you absolutly certain it wasn't on there when you purchased the gun? Well, uh, I don't know...It's kinda like buying a new car only to discover something strange only after the first thorough carwash. It could be that it was there the whole time from the factory and I never noticed it until breaking it down for a cleaning, since cleaning (like a carwash) is kinda an intimate moment between man and machine where you learn little intricacies of the machine.

September 15, 2012, 10:37 PM	#12
red96ta Member Join Date: July 6, 2012 Posts: 50	Looks like the problem is solved! Yep, looks like a hot gas burn just like mine. You would think that after a couple hundred rounds it would cut right through the arbor.

September 15, 2012, 10:42 PM	#13
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Wow! Thanks beagle333 for pics..I never would have thought B.P. would gas-cut like that! But on 2nd. thought..it does make sense...In my 1863 percussion Shilo Sharps..the nipple base very soon gets a groove cut in it from gas making that 90 deg. turn. Now I'm gonna have to check my arbors!

September 15, 2012, 11:00 PM	#15
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	Here's a closer look. (It gets hot in that area.)

September 16, 2012, 02:48 PM	#17
robhof Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 712	robhof I have a Dan Wesson Supermag 357 that Ruger discontinued their version because of the flame cutting of the top strap and throat erosion, Dw just offered a spare barrel and after years of ram shooting competition, it was found to be a self stopping problem, even many of the old Rugers are still competing, the gas burning process also heat hardens the area and stops after a short time, at least that's what the DW smith that I talked to when I got my gun said. I've had it since 1992 and shot many rounds through it and it still hasn't gotten any worse than when I 1st got it used. I would believe this would also apply to the Colts as cut arbors would be a problem with many used in CAS competition for years.

September 16, 2012, 06:32 PM	#18
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I guess I'm the one that doesn't pay attention cuz mine have it too. I just never noticed it.

September 17, 2012, 02:39 AM	#19
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Yep....I am convinced A day is not wasted if you have learned something. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

September 17, 2012, 09:29 AM	#20
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	All of my 1860 Army Piettas that have any shooting time at all show this mark. I always attributed it to gas cutting.

September 17, 2012, 03:14 PM	#21
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Remington cylinder pins can show signs of gas cutting too because their cylinder face is flat and doesn't have a gas bushing. But the gas cutting is usually not nearly as deep as with the Colts. However the Colts are known to be less affected by fouling due to their slightly looser tolerances.

September 17, 2012, 03:34 PM	#22
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	Dang, ain't this mentioned in the "sticky". I feel just green as grass. Now I need to drag all mine out and look. I think we got a new way to grade the piece!

September 17, 2012, 07:52 PM	#23
Roshi Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2010 Location: Houston Posts: 223	Great info! I'll be watching my new 1851 Navy closely. Only have about 60 rounds downrange so far.

September 18, 2012, 12:51 AM	#24
brazosdave Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2012 Location: Crockett, Texas Posts: 363	at what point does this render the pistol unfireable? Like to know for future reference. My 1860 has just a little bit of a line, not hardly even noticeable. Thanks for bringing this to the masses, though guys. I would never have known about this.

September 18, 2012, 01:09 AM	#25
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello everyone, Just a thought..the older Colt S.A.A. had the removable cyl. bushing. These have a groove around dia..which I supposed to allow removal by fingernails..but I wonder if this groove also is machined there to reduce gas cutting?..Didn't Colt in fact call this area the "gas ring"?