My ammo boxes ate my ammo!

Fallowt · February 27, 2019, 05:22 AM

I'll try to say this without writing a book. I have an IMI Jericho 941, convertible gun from .41 Action Express caliber to 9mm Para. Those familiar with the extinct .41 AE know how hard it is to find that ammo, and my Jericho only likes JHP, FMJ jams on the feed about every 5th round for some reason, probably because of the truncated cone design of UZI type ammo for that caliber. Anyway, many years ago I went to a gun show and there were some boxes of new Speer "Lawman" jhp in .41 AE so I bought them all. They were stored in my air-conditioned bunker/workshop for years. I checked on them recently and discovered that the factory foam inserts inside the boxes that had originally kept the rounds separated had disintegrated into a gray dust, and that dust, whether by acidic or alkaline means, had eaten into the surface of all the rounds wherever it had contact with the brass. It didn't affect the casings, just the jacketed portions of the bullets themselves. and I mean it cratered them with zits like a teenagers face, cut right through the jacket leaving a rough surface. To try and salvage it, I put the rounds in my brass tumbler (I have some small experience in reloading and know you should never tumble live rounds, but again it is in my armored bunker.) No Effect! It's like the bullets got dipped in acid and have a 200 grain sandpaper finish, on about 1/3 of their circumference on average,wherever they had contact with the foam-dust. There's no way I would carry this ammo and expect reliable action in my Jericho. I'm not sure what to expect from posting this but was just wondering if anyone had similar experience storing ammo in foam and seeing it destroyed. Of all my ammo, (I have about 20,000 rounds) it had to be my .41 AE? Arrrggghh! BTW, I have nothing against Speer, I love their products, let me make that very clear.

fasteddie01 · February 27, 2019, 09:38 AM

Hi Fallowt !
Thanks for the warning. I only have about 10k rounds but some of my 223 has foam inserts. I'll be checking all and replacing any of that s***. Luckily my EU 7.62 is all paper wrapped Mil with nothing else. That's about half of my store.

**44 AMP** · February 27, 2019, 01:17 PM

Your Jericho doesn't sound reliable no matter what the condition of the bullets (jams every 5th round??

)

While you're at it check all the foam lined gun cases you have. Sure not the same stuff as the Styrofoam stuff in ammo boxes, but something to check, none the less. Gun case foam can absorb oil (actually wicking it OFF the gun surfaces where it touches) and can also trap moisture against the gun, and that's assuming the foam doesn't degrade over time, releasing a nasty chemical on your gun(s).

Fallowt · February 27, 2019, 01:36 PM

I believe that Speer ammo I mentioned is the only stuff I had in that gray foam material. It was so expensive I think that is why they tried to give it a higher-quality packaging than regular styrofoam. I was in law enforcement for about 20 years and I have seen foam packaging/padding for equipment like optics decay after 20-30 years into dust but never saw it eat into a metallic surface like that. Weird. Anyway, just pointing out a strange occurence.

The Jericho functions flawlessly with JHP, I really think it's the shape of the FMJ ammo which has a distinct edge to the bullet front, but despite my earlier indication I don't really carry the thing anymore. It's mostly a spare/sentimental piece. But it breaks my heart as it was my first handgun, like a car you can't get tires for anymore. Anyway thanks for responding.

FrankenMauser · February 27, 2019, 01:42 PM

The etching of the bullets could, potentially, be caused powder decomposition.
Be cautious with that ammunition.
It wouldn't hurt to pull a few bullets from the worst-looking cartridges, to inspect the powder.

Since the brass doesn't seem to be affected, it may just be the trays that caused the damage. But I would still check it out...

Fallowt · February 27, 2019, 01:52 PM

Believe me, I wouldn't trust that ammo at all for reliability. These will just be practice rounds if anything. I had a couple clips of 41 jhp stored separately fortunately. I also have some fresh brass and dies for reloading, but I haven't done that in many years and need to relearn the skill. I think you can reload .41 AE with .41 mag bullets but need to check. I carry my Delta Elite 10mm most days so it's not like an emergency, just disappointing to have such rare, expensive ammo get damaged like that by something as dumb as packaging.

NWPilgrim · February 27, 2019, 04:14 PM

Thanks for the heads up. I don’t recall seeing any of my ammo packed in that kind of foam but I am going to check on it now. I only have a few boxes of Lawman, most other brands are in plastic trays, a few in styrofoam which I am also going to inspect carefully.

That is a tragic loss of hard to find ammo.

Charlie98 · February 27, 2019, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Luckily my EU 7.62 is all paper wrapped Mil with nothing else.

Not so fast, Eddie...

Paper and cardboard boxes can also contain acids which can react to humidity and corrode brass. I had some Malaysian 5.56mm in generic white paperboard boxes, some of it was stored in a humid garage... all that ammo had corrosion spots on it, but only where the cases touched the box or dividers; the ammo in ammo cans, not subject to humidity, was fine... so a lot has to do with how it's stored. I don't normally leave Euro surplus in it's original packaging because of this.

OP, I wouldn't trust any of that... and what a shame, too.

Like someone suggested, I would pull about 10 random rounds, just to see what you are looking at... but you might wind up pulling all of them to save the brass.

Grey_Lion · February 28, 2019, 10:56 AM

Please post some picture attachments to show what this problem looks like.

gwpercle · February 28, 2019, 01:19 PM

Complain to Speer , send them several photo's , be nice and maybe they might do something.... I don't know what but it wont cost you anything to ask .
Gary

**Unclenick** · February 28, 2019, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallowt

Believe me, I wouldn't trust that ammo at all for reliability. These will just be practice rounds if anything.

I think you missed the point. If the powder is breaking down, it can cause dangerous pressures.

To be safe, use an inertial bullet puller (not expensive if you don't already have one and there are plenty of YouTube videos demonstrating their use) to pull down a few of the worst-looking rounds just to be sure the pitting isn't due to powder deterioration. It's very unlikely, as I've had powder breaking down in surplus ammo before and it ate through the brass. But, a number of alloy variants are used in making cases, so just in case you got acid-resistant cases, do the pull-down on a few just to check. If the powder smells like nitric acid or the powder sticks together in clumps or there is a red dust left behind when you pour the powder on a white sheet of paper and gently slide it off, then you have deterioration. Deterioration can attack the deterrent coatings that regulate how fast the powder burns, and if they go first you are left with a faster burning powder than you had originally and that can almost double pressure, so you want to be sure you don't have that issue.

Note that all powder smells a little of the solvent used to make it. That ether smell isn't a problem. Nitric acid, though, has an unmistakable smell of its own. It's not quite as pungent as acetic acid (vinegar) but it does have some pungency. I learned the smell in chem lab in school, and if you are uncertain you can probably go to a local school and ask a chemistry prof to show you how to waft the scent from a bottle of the stuff safely and learn the smell that way. It's an acrid acid scent, but just not exactly like any other I can recall (and believe you me, organic chem lab had some pretty extreme odors associated with some of its compounds; butyric acid in particular, which someone dropped a bottle of one day, causing evacuation of the whole building floor as it is what accounts for eau de vomitus).

tmd47762 · February 28, 2019, 10:18 PM

I had a similar problem with some 45 auto Lawman probably from the late 80s or early 90s I’d guess. The foam broke down and was leaving a residue on them. Ground level ozone will eat the plasticizers in foam. I doubt you’ll find any powder problems, but never a bad idea to pull some of the worst looking ones to check.

February 27, 2019, 05:22 AM	#1
Fallowt Junior Member Join Date: October 20, 2009 Location: Miami Posts: 12	My ammo boxes ate my ammo! I'll try to say this without writing a book. I have an IMI Jericho 941, convertible gun from .41 Action Express caliber to 9mm Para. Those familiar with the extinct .41 AE know how hard it is to find that ammo, and my Jericho only likes JHP, FMJ jams on the feed about every 5th round for some reason, probably because of the truncated cone design of UZI type ammo for that caliber. Anyway, many years ago I went to a gun show and there were some boxes of new Speer "Lawman" jhp in .41 AE so I bought them all. They were stored in my air-conditioned bunker/workshop for years. I checked on them recently and discovered that the factory foam inserts inside the boxes that had originally kept the rounds separated had disintegrated into a gray dust, and that dust, whether by acidic or alkaline means, had eaten into the surface of all the rounds wherever it had contact with the brass. It didn't affect the casings, just the jacketed portions of the bullets themselves. and I mean it cratered them with zits like a teenagers face, cut right through the jacket leaving a rough surface. To try and salvage it, I put the rounds in my brass tumbler (I have some small experience in reloading and know you should never tumble live rounds, but again it is in my armored bunker.) No Effect! It's like the bullets got dipped in acid and have a 200 grain sandpaper finish, on about 1/3 of their circumference on average,wherever they had contact with the foam-dust. There's no way I would carry this ammo and expect reliable action in my Jericho. I'm not sure what to expect from posting this but was just wondering if anyone had similar experience storing ammo in foam and seeing it destroyed. Of all my ammo, (I have about 20,000 rounds) it had to be my .41 AE? Arrrggghh! BTW, I have nothing against Speer, I love their products, let me make that very clear.

February 27, 2019, 01:17 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,871	Your Jericho doesn't sound reliable no matter what the condition of the bullets (jams every 5th round?? ) While you're at it check all the foam lined gun cases you have. Sure not the same stuff as the Styrofoam stuff in ammo boxes, but something to check, none the less. Gun case foam can absorb oil (actually wicking it OFF the gun surfaces where it touches) and can also trap moisture against the gun, and that's assuming the foam doesn't degrade over time, releasing a nasty chemical on your gun(s). __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 27, 2019, 01:36 PM	#4
Fallowt Junior Member Join Date: October 20, 2009 Location: Miami Posts: 12	I believe that Speer ammo I mentioned is the only stuff I had in that gray foam material. It was so expensive I think that is why they tried to give it a higher-quality packaging than regular styrofoam. I was in law enforcement for about 20 years and I have seen foam packaging/padding for equipment like optics decay after 20-30 years into dust but never saw it eat into a metallic surface like that. Weird. Anyway, just pointing out a strange occurence. The Jericho functions flawlessly with JHP, I really think it's the shape of the FMJ ammo which has a distinct edge to the bullet front, but despite my earlier indication I don't really carry the thing anymore. It's mostly a spare/sentimental piece. But it breaks my heart as it was my first handgun, like a car you can't get tires for anymore. Anyway thanks for responding. Last edited by Fallowt; February 27, 2019 at 01:44 PM.

February 27, 2019, 01:42 PM	#5
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	The etching of the bullets could, potentially, be caused powder decomposition. Be cautious with that ammunition. It wouldn't hurt to pull a few bullets from the worst-looking cartridges, to inspect the powder. Since the brass doesn't seem to be affected, it may just be the trays that caused the damage. But I would still check it out... __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 27, 2019, 09:38 AM	#2
fasteddie01 Junior Member Join Date: December 12, 2018 Location: New Brunswick Canada Posts: 1	Hi Fallowt ! Thanks for the warning. I only have about 10k rounds but some of my 223 has foam inserts. I'll be checking all and replacing any of that s***. Luckily my EU 7.62 is all paper wrapped Mil with nothing else. That's about half of my store.

February 27, 2019, 01:52 PM	#6
Fallowt Junior Member Join Date: October 20, 2009 Location: Miami Posts: 12	Believe me, I wouldn't trust that ammo at all for reliability. These will just be practice rounds if anything. I had a couple clips of 41 jhp stored separately fortunately. I also have some fresh brass and dies for reloading, but I haven't done that in many years and need to relearn the skill. I think you can reload .41 AE with .41 mag bullets but need to check. I carry my Delta Elite 10mm most days so it's not like an emergency, just disappointing to have such rare, expensive ammo get damaged like that by something as dumb as packaging.

February 27, 2019, 04:14 PM	#7
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	Thanks for the heads up. I don’t recall seeing any of my ammo packed in that kind of foam but I am going to check on it now. I only have a few boxes of Lawman, most other brands are in plastic trays, a few in styrofoam which I am also going to inspect carefully. That is a tragic loss of hard to find ammo.

February 28, 2019, 10:56 AM	#9
Grey_Lion Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Baton Rouge - Louisiana Posts: 407	Please post some picture attachments to show what this problem looks like.

February 28, 2019, 01:19 PM	#10
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	Complain to Speer , send them several photo's , be nice and maybe they might do something.... I don't know what but it wont cost you anything to ask . Gary

February 28, 2019, 10:18 PM	#12
tmd47762 Member Join Date: April 30, 2009 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 96	I had a similar problem with some 45 auto Lawman probably from the late 80s or early 90s I’d guess. The foam broke down and was leaving a residue on them. Ground level ozone will eat the plasticizers in foam. I doubt you’ll find any powder problems, but never a bad idea to pull some of the worst looking ones to check.