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Old August 31, 2008, 06:10 PM   #1
dmozer
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Accurate Factory loads

I know I'm posting an oft posted and oft debated question here, but I want to make sure I make the right decision. I am getting a Tikka T3 Hunter in Stainless (Scheel's exclusive-it is sooo beautiful for a $550 gun). I am at an impasse however. The gun is available in 25-06, 270, 30-06 and I believe the .300 Winmag. I do mostly whitetail hunting here in Nebraska and hope to make it out to do some elk hunting in the next couple years. So I've essentially decided the .270 or 30-06 is the best choice for my uses here, but I also like to do some paper punching. Which leads me to my question: For which caliber (.270 or .30-06) are more accurate loads produced? Also, for a scope, 3.5-10 or 4.5-14, which will be better for my purposes?
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Old August 31, 2008, 06:43 PM   #2
jhgreasemonkey
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There is much more ammo availvable for the 06 including a lot of 168 grain match target bullets. Both are capable of great accuracy. Both are good on dear and elk while the 06 is better on elk due to its use of heavier bullets. I would pick the scope that offers a 3x option because some hunting situations happen up close.
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Old September 1, 2008, 08:44 AM   #3
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dmozer,

The 30.06 will probably have a 1 in 10 twist on the barrel, and will handle a wide range of grain choices from 150 up to 180 grains. Every company has various types of bullets in this weight range, and to find the BEST and MOST ACCURATE bullet for your particular weapon, you will have to try a few of them. Since every rifle will like a particular weight and type of bullet a little better than it does another, you will have to try different ones until you are satisfied.

If you are the casual hunter and shooter, then you can find a factory ammo that will probably do what you want it to, but if you are someone who like to punch paper quite a bit, and accuracy is the most important thing to you, then you will probably want to get into loading your own ammo. This way you can custom tune your loads to your particular weapon.
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Old September 1, 2008, 10:13 AM   #4
ringworm
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caliber has nothing to do with accuracy.
NOTHING!
ANY CALIBER RIFLE MADE RIGHT WILL SHOOT RIGHT!
I cant stand it when people start talking about inherent accuracy.
BS!!!

what is the max and the average distance you are going to shoot from?
the way i hunt most of my deer are killed in early morning or late afternoon so i prefer a large objective lens to gather light. if you hunt out west and spot/stalk this doesnt matter as much if your shooting deer at noon.
as far as magnification goes, dont get so wrapped up.
a 4X scope gives you the same sight picture on a 400 yard target as you looking at a 100 yard target with the naked eye.
If you can center punch a target at 25 yards with iron sights you be good out to the limit of 99% of peoples ability w/ a fixed 6 power scope.
TRUE accuracy is going to come from you. not from ANY equipment, ammo, rifle or scope. YOU are the weakest link.
SO, buy the caliber of rifle which will allow YOU to shoot more often and most comfortably.
for me a 308 is the answer. I can shoot cheap and frequent and i'm not likely to develop a red shoulder, detatched retina or flinch from shooting it.
ergo I am very accurate. And while i do buy good quality gear I certainly dont consider the gear the reason I make kills or shots. I could certainly hunt the rest of my days with a stevens 200 and a 4X simmons scope with remington cor-lock ammo.
The thing about focusing on equipment is that it gives the NON-HACKERS a place to lay the blame when they mess up.
"Oh this old rifle isnt accurate"
"my scope isnt that good"
" this crappy federal ammo"
ect
ect
ect.
Its never...
"I should practice more"
"I should have gotten closer"
"I should have researched this load better"
Take responsibility and you also take credit.
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Old September 1, 2008, 10:34 AM   #5
kraigwy
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Quote:
caliber has nothing to do with accuracy.
NOTHING!
ANY CALIBER RIFLE MADE RIGHT WILL SHOOT RIGHT!
I cant stand it when people start talking about inherent accuracy.
BS!!!
Maybe, maybe not. look at the 222 Rem. Some are more "inherently accurate. But this would take a lot longer topic subject to debate here.

Anyway, IN GENERAL, what makes an accurate cart. would have to do with the available bullets. There are more match bullets out there in 30 cal the then the 277s.

I really like the 270, if I was gonna hunt mainly deer with a few elk trips that would be my choice. Even with no or few Match bullets available, its as accurate as any hunting round out there. Its longer per the same bullet weight. If one was to take a 150 grn bullet in both, the 270 is gonna shoot farther and flatter then the '06.

Having said that, my 1000 yard bolt gun in in 30-06, Hard to beat the 175 Grn SMKs, I dont know of any 277 bullets that will compair.

But you have to set up the rifle for the bullet. If I'm building a target rilfe, I first pick the bullet I'll use and build the gun to match the bullet. In a hunting rifle, the standard twist barrels to fit normal hunting loads will be fine.

I'm not sure about using target rifles for hunting. My target rifles are a bit too heavy or me to pack around. And hunting rilfes are normally too light for target shooting. But then I'm a wimp in my old age, My primary hunting rifle is a Winchester Featherweight in 257 Roberts, I can carry it all day and would never, while hunting shoot it to the point where it gets too hot and starts slinging flyers. But there is no way I could take that rifle and shoot two or three 1000 yard matches.

I dont think the same rifle for both works anybetter the having a heavy pickup for the wife's grocery getter, or a little sub compact car for a farm truck.

Differant jobs require differant tools. Besides it gives you an excuse to have lots of guns.
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Old September 1, 2008, 10:40 AM   #6
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Quote:
There are more match bullets out there in 30 cal the then the 277s.
so since more benchrest rifles are built in 6mm and built to be accurate no matter the cost... are we going to say that 6m is more accurate?
NO.
Caliber is size.
accuracy is repetitive action with results that diviate only to a miniscule degree.
the idea that the size of a projectile at a certain speed is going to somehow dictate anything with regards to its placement shot after shot is absurd.

its like saying a XL pizza taste better than a small pizza becasue more people can eat eat therefore more people will agree it taste good.

Its absurd.
If a new wildcat caliber became the rave at benchrest and 955 of shooter had a custom builder amke $40,000 rifles in that caliber that wouldnt mean that that caliber was now more accurate than any other.
If you really think that a caliber can be accurate tell me what caliber isnt?
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Old September 1, 2008, 01:30 PM   #7
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Thanks for all the replies, after looking it over, I think I will end up with the .270. For right now that seems to be the best caliber as far as for deer w/in 300 yards, plus I can shoot comfortably more often-which would make me a better shot. If in the future I want to hunt moose, or something larger I will just buy another rifle, so for now I think I have decided that the .270 will make me happiest. Also, I was looking for something to punch out a little farther than my .17 if I want to do some varminting, and there are some lighter bullets available in case I want to reload-which is getting more and more difficult to convince myself I don't need to do
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Old September 1, 2008, 02:11 PM   #8
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The .270 is a great round and so is the .30-06 but I still prefer to hunt with the .270 most of all. It has accounted for several elk for me and never left me feeling under gunned. Just a suggestion use 150 grain for that elk hunt and 130 for everything else which has worked well for me. Any 130 grain bullet will be fine for deer and down and would probably work ok on elk but I just like the 150 grain Nosler Partition for larger animals.

As far as scopes go I like a good quality 2.5-8, 3-9, or 2.5-10 power best of all.
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Old September 1, 2008, 06:40 PM   #9
Art Eatman
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For all that I'm an '06 guy, I have zero argument with taylorce1. I grew up on the '06; I've used the .270. I just meddle around more with handloads, so the '06 works better for me.

Insofar as Bambi or a Big Bugler is concerned, they'd never know the difference.

If you handload, I'm guessing there is more availability of lead gas-checks in 30-caliber for target practice and plinking.
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Old September 1, 2008, 08:18 PM   #10
dipper
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Quote:
caliber has nothing to do with accuracy.
NOTHING!
ANY CALIBER RIFLE MADE RIGHT WILL SHOOT RIGHT!
I cant stand it when people start talking about inherent accuracy.
BS!!!
Quote:
so since more benchrest rifles are built in 6mm and built to be accurate no matter the cost... are we going to say that 6m is more accurate?
Right, it isn't caliber that gives the greatest inherent accuracy, it's the CASE DESIGN and the ability of the case to give the most efficient use of propellant and repeatability from shot to shot.
Just go to a benchrest match and walk up and down the line, most of these guys play for keeps and will use whatever works and wins---fact is, if your not shooting one of the calibers based on the 6PPC, you just ain't gonna win---period!!
If the 222 , 30-06, 300WM etc. etc. (pick case/caliber of your choice) would or COULD win, you would see them on the line and you DON'T.
Believe me, everything has been tried and experimentation takes place every day.
Doesn't mean there will never be another caliber or CASE DESIGN that won't win, it means that there isn't one now. Go here:

http://www.benchrest.com/

and tell these guys that there is no such thing as inherent accuracy---just wear your flame suit.
These are guys that lead the field in rifle/cartridge design and experimentation and have won MANY matches and tried and do try everything under the sun---they are the leading edge of rifle accuracy and many have been doing it since before the .222 was king.
Go ahead and register and post your thoughts you might just teach them a thing or two.
Quote:
the idea that the size of a projectile at a certain speed is going to somehow dictate anything with regards to its placement shot after shot is absurd.
Tell them that too!!
I have to ask do you reload??
If you do, and work up loads for your rifles how can you say that??

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Old September 2, 2008, 06:02 AM   #11
ringworm
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yes i reload.
please tell me about that "caliber" that is inherently inaccurate.
so you actually belive that , all other things being equal, a 6mm projectile somehow dictates by its size how it is going to hit a target?
preposterous.
how is it that the projectile somehow changes the enviroment to be favorable to itself while another "size" projectile doesnt have that ability?

Is the 6mm PPC better because more people use it, or do more people use it because it's better
you are confusing causation with casuiality.
The 6mm PPC is, if I understand it's heritage correctly, a third- or forth-generation variation of the 7.62 x 39. What makes it more accurate than it's parent case or any of the other PPC variants? And what makes it more accurate than the .243 Win or 6mm Rem?
My argument is that it seems more accurate because it is a task specific design, all the BR cartridges are designed to perform 1 task. That task is to compete in a controlled environment at specific ranges against rifles of similar class.
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Old September 2, 2008, 02:07 PM   #12
dipper
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Quote:
yes i reload.
please tell me about that "caliber" that is inherently inaccurate.
so you actually belive that , all other things being equal, a 6mm projectile somehow dictates by its size how it is going to hit a target?
preposterous.
how is it that the projectile somehow changes the enviroment to be favorable to itself while another "size" projectile doesnt have that ability?
OK Ringworm,
I'll take this slow for you.
Now, you have to re-read my previous post, and pay attention.
First, you SHOULD notice that I said:
Quote:
Right, it isn't caliber that gives the greatest inherent accuracy, it's the CASE DESIGN and the ability of the case to give the most efficient use of propellant and repeatability from shot to shot.
And that is true.
THE most accurate calibers to date, if you look at Benchrest results, are the 6ppc and 22ppc---that's just a fact that can be EASILY confirmed if you look at match results---they are the same case.
Now, gentlemen that are much brighter than I and much more experienced than I are currently experimenting with THIS CASE and OTHERS in different calibers.
So far, at this time, there are a few that are "promising" but none that are ready to unseat the PPCs---again, if you read my post above, I said that although the PPCs are the winners now, it does not mean that one of these guys won't come up with another competitive cartridge.
Now, you should know, that the gentlemen that are leading the edge in accuracy are serious about it---AND, THEY ARE BUILDING RIFLES TO DO THEIR EXPERIMENTS---I KNOW BECAUSE I HAVE HELPED THEM.
THEY BUILD THESE RIFLES WITH THE SAME COMPONENTS AND BARRELS, THEY HAVE JUST AS MUCH MONEY IN THESE RIFLES AS THEY DO IN THEIR 6PPC AND 22PPC---MORE MONEY IN SOME CASES BECAUSE, THEY ARE ORDERING SPECIAL DIES AND RELOADING EQUIPMENT AND SPECIAL REAMERS.
IT COST MORE MONEY TO BUILD A SPECIAL "ONE OFF" RIFLE FOR EXPERIMENTATION PURPOSES BUT THESE FELLOWS DO IT AND OFTEN.

So, if you would take the time to go to the link I offered and read through some posts and talk to some of these guys, you would know the answer to this question:
Quote:
Is the 6mm PPC better because more people use it, or do more people use it because it's better
you are confusing causation with casuiality.
You are confused---more people use it BECAUSE IT IS BETTER---PERIOD!!
There were other cartridges in use and winning BEFORE the PPC ---when the PPC came along, it set new records and fast.
Now, it only makes sense that since the PPC was winning, and these guys that spend that kind of money WANT to win, that they use the BEST caliber to win and the PPC is that caliber--IF YOU WANT TO GO AND SHOOT IN MATCHES WITH WHATEVER CALIBER YOU LIKE, YOU CERTAINLY CAN, BUT YOU WON'T WIN---BUT YOU CAN USE WHAT YOU LIKE AND TRY AND PROVE YOUR POINT, OTHERS HAVE AND HAVE LOST---YOU MAY BE THE FIRST.

When you ask questions like this:
Quote:
What makes it more accurate than it's parent case or any of the other PPC variants? And what makes it more accurate than the .243 Win or 6mm Rem?
It shows you don't have a clue.
It is because of the effiency of the case.
This post is getting long so I would suggest that you go and do some reading and talk with some of the guys I mentioned.
The link I gave you has a wealth of information on accuracy.

It shouldn't take to long before you realize that your statements are pretty ignorant and you don't know what your talking about.
Just go read and learn.

Dipper
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Old September 2, 2008, 02:48 PM   #13
ringworm
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mr high and mighty "i have built guns for benchrest" let me explain something YOU may not grasp.
there is no magic, just slight of hand.
There is no magic caliber or case design.
Is the military moving to 6mmPPC?
NO???
Why not?
ALL THINGS EQUAL a 30-06 has the potential to shoot as accurate as a 6mm.
you seem to have this fantasy that 6PPC was handed down to man from the hands of god...
And the lord sayeth unto Dipper "Go forth and make little holes, and spare not the 6mm for it is good"
NO MAGIC CHIEF!
benchrest shooters are niche shooters. as soon as some top shooter grabs a hold of the title with another caliber everyone will be following it around like teenage girls.
OOOOOHHHHHH!, 6mm (swoon)...
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Old September 2, 2008, 04:53 PM   #14
dipper
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Yeah, and go forth Ringworm and doeth your readings and taketh console with those that have gone before ye and seek wisdom.
Speak to them that have done what appears that you have done not and console them in the error of their ways.
Taketh ye your 30-06 and show them their errors that they may hide in shame and repent---for you have much wisdom and knowledge.
When thou doest such, get back to we that are confused and showeth us thou targets and trophies ---for we await with much anticipation.
Until that time of enlightenment, we will have to toil along in our ignorance, waiting for Ringworm to show us the true way.

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Old September 2, 2008, 05:07 PM   #15
dmozer
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Wow, sorry I didn't mean to spark a heated debate here. My original question was regarding factory loads and which one had more match loads available. As I stated earlier I decided on the .270, and will pick up a .308 with a heavy barrel and keep my hobbies separate-can't have one do-all gun! I picked up the gun earlier today, pics to follow later tonight with a range report within the next couple weeks.
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Old September 2, 2008, 05:33 PM   #16
ringworm
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WHAT?
you didnt buy a 6mm?
how are you going to hit anything?
heres the new USMC 6mm BR sniper rifle...

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Old September 2, 2008, 07:31 PM   #17
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Just my two cents....I just bought a Marlin XL7 in .270 and am very happy with it. So far, with some handloads, I've brought the groups down to 1.15" (not a tack-driver, but for <$300...heck). It has a nice, comfortable recoil pad and I could shoot this gun all day long. It's going to be a great hunting rifle for deer, elk, bear, cougar, varmints, paper, whatever.

Oh, and it looks really good sitting next to my 6.5mm Arisaka Sporter! Just had to throw that in!
(p.s.The 80yr old Arisaka can do sub-MOA if I do my part.)
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Old September 2, 2008, 09:46 PM   #18
dmozer
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"you didnt buy a 6mm?
how are you going to hit anything?"

Prayer
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Old September 2, 2008, 11:07 PM   #19
dmozer
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Here it is, sorry about the quality, the wife doesn't allow me to touch her camera...or I'm too lazy to use anything but my phone.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg jpg063.jpg (74.8 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg jpg064.jpg (80.5 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg jpg065.jpg (78.7 KB, 25 views)
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Old September 3, 2008, 07:26 AM   #20
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dm....good lookin' boom stick!

And you guys are right...I don't know what I was thinking, not buying a 6. That .270 will surely miss everything I shoot at!
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Old September 3, 2008, 10:34 AM   #21
Art Eatman
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This one seems to have run its course...
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