Damned if you do, damned if you don't...Rem 700

Azby · June 27, 2011, 10:39 AM

Hi guys,
I'm building up a bolt-together precision rifle; this is a Rem 700 SS 5R action and barrel in a Bell & Carlson adjustable Tactical/Varmint stock (#2094) with a Jewel trigger and Wyatt's bottom metal with the DBM. The problem(s):
The bottom metal needs to be shimmed (0.030) at the rear to make the magazine fit. This causes the bolt to be loose and rattle (when not cocked). It also seems to cause some bending stress on the bottom metal when I put the front screw in. The magazine doesn't feed properly and the follower binds. I think I can fix the magazine problem by putting a bevel on the back shim, but does anyone know how I can stop the bolt from rattling. It may not affect the function but it is annoying and 'cobby.' The couple of others like this that I have build were just bolt together and go. I come from a background of Smith revolvers so I'm still learning a lot about Rem rifles. Thanks.

Azby

GURU1911 · June 27, 2011, 04:02 PM

Is the magazine not fitting properly, because the hole in the stock where the magazine is inserted is too tight toward the rear ?????

If it is, the b&c stock can be gently filed with a half-round tapered fine cut file or a dremel tool with the cylindrical burr, to remove some of the stock material that is interfering with proper insertion of the mag.

Guru1911

Azby · June 27, 2011, 04:14 PM

The problem is not the hole in the stock. It seems to be the torque applied to the bottom metal when both screws are tightened to spec. There's a 0.030 shim at the rear; if you tighten the rear screw down you can feel a definite flexing in the bottom metal if you push on it (or put a screw in) at the front screw hole.
Anyway, I 'think' I can fix this by tapering the rear shim. What I don't know how to fix is the loose, floppy bolt (due to the shim lifting the trigger mechanisim off of the bolt). Any ideas on that one?

GURU1911 · June 27, 2011, 09:21 PM

In the past 30 years, i have hot-rodded a pickup truck load of rem. Rifles---model 721 / 722 / 700 / 788 / model 7 / model 600. Have no bench-top experience with the particular model 700 you are currently tweaking & therefore cannot see in my minds eye what the problem is. Maybe you could send me some pics to look at.

The shim you are referring to, does it have anything to do with supporting the receiver and / or the rear action screw? Is the purpose of the shim to prevent the receiver from crushing into the stock when torquing both screws ?????

Guru1911

James K · June 27, 2011, 11:25 PM

I am trying to visualize how the shim lifts the trigger mechanisim off of the bolt. The trigger mechanism is screwed to the receiver and except for the sear doesn't really bear on the bolt. The bolt on the Remington 700 is a bit loose in the receiver (as it is on most bolt action rifles), it is not intended to fit like a piston. There is usually not a noticeable rattle because the magazine follower, not the trigger, maintains pressure on the bolt.

Jim

GURU1911 · June 28, 2011, 04:12 PM

AZBY: CAN YOU SEND SOME PICS OF THE BARRELED ACTION, THE SHIM, THE TRIGGER MECHANISM, & WHERE THIS MYSTERY "SHIM" SUPPOSEDLY GOES ???

JIM & I ARE BAFFLED BY YOUR PROBLEM, AS WE BOTH ARE VERY FAMILIAR WITH REM BOLT ACTIONS. MAYBE IF BOTH COULD LOOK AT SOME PHOTOS OF WHAT YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO DESCRIBE, I BET BETWEEN THE TWO OF US WE CAN DEVELOP A WORKABLE SOLUTION FOR YOU. PROMISE US TWO OLD POOTS WILL GIVE IT OUR BEST EFFORT !!!! RIGHT JIM ????

MICHAEL WHITLOCK (aka: GURU1911)

Azby · June 28, 2011, 05:26 PM

Actually Jim Keenan is right; the trigger isn't being lifted off of the bolt-the magazine is being lifted away by the shim. For all: this is a shim washer that fits between the bottom metal/magazine assembly and the aluminum bedding block in the stock around the rear action screw(this stock has a full length bedding block, not just pillers). Without the shim the magazine won't even clip in to the latch (this latch is located on the front/inside of the trigger guard). Without the shim the bolt is "loose" but not floppy loose as it is with the shim. But without the shim the magazine will not fit and the rifle will not feed.

James K · June 28, 2011, 07:04 PM

It sounds like you are trying to put the barrelled action in from the top of the stock, and the trigger guard/floorplate in from the bottom and expecting everything to just fit. But that stock has to be fitted. What you want to do is to work slowly on the stock (and any pillars, etc.) until the action and magazine fit together the way they are designed to do. Try putting the parts together without the stock and I think you will see how they go together. I am not familiar with that particular stock, so I don't know what you may need in the way of stock-maker's tools or marking material, or where, if anywhere, you may need shims, but you want things tight without crushing the stock or putting too much strain on the action.

Once you know what the situation is, you begin to fit the stock by removing stock material at the critical points until everything fits snugly together. Then I think your magazine will fit fine and the sloppy bolt won't be sloppy any more. (Didn't Doris Day do something like that?)

Jim

mapsjanhere · June 29, 2011, 07:14 AM

Ok, now I understand the "lose bolt" thing (actually how the bolt can be held strongly was the real question).
The bolt is supposed to be lose, what happens is that with the magazine being in too tight the feed lips put pressure on the bolt, giving you that (desirable but not intended) snug feel. Once you shim the metal to allow the magazine to sit right the magazine no longer contacts the bolt - regular operations.
I'm not even sure you need to start messing with the stock, just check if you can shim the front screw to prevent the "bowing" of the bottom metal.

Azby · June 29, 2011, 09:40 AM

Jim,
This is all supposed to be "drop-in and bolt-together" stuff; no fitting reqired. The first two I did were just that and worked fine. The Wyatt's bottom metal/magazine is a drop in to Bell & Carlson stocks. They do claim that shimming may sometimes be needed, though. Apparently this is one of those times.
I will try putting the pieces together without the stock. That does seem like a really good way for me to see what is going on. Maybe I can determine if my tapered shim idea (see below) is feasable.

Mapsjanhere,
All right, that's clearer to me now. I'm going to try to taper the rear shim (its a washer) from 0.030 down to about 10-15 thou. on the front end and see if that takes the torque out of the bottom metal and mag. If I put a shim (any shim I've tried up to this point) in the front it tips the magazine down to the point that it wont feed at all (and it has a mirror polished feed ramp).

Thanks, guys.

June 27, 2011, 10:39 AM	#1
Azby Junior Member Join Date: June 7, 2011 Posts: 9	Damned if you do, damned if you don't...Rem 700 Hi guys, I'm building up a bolt-together precision rifle; this is a Rem 700 SS 5R action and barrel in a Bell & Carlson adjustable Tactical/Varmint stock (#2094) with a Jewel trigger and Wyatt's bottom metal with the DBM. The problem(s): The bottom metal needs to be shimmed (0.030) at the rear to make the magazine fit. This causes the bolt to be loose and rattle (when not cocked). It also seems to cause some bending stress on the bottom metal when I put the front screw in. The magazine doesn't feed properly and the follower binds. I think I can fix the magazine problem by putting a bevel on the back shim, but does anyone know how I can stop the bolt from rattling. It may not affect the function but it is annoying and 'cobby.' The couple of others like this that I have build were just bolt together and go. I come from a background of Smith revolvers so I'm still learning a lot about Rem rifles. Thanks. Azby

June 27, 2011, 09:21 PM	#4
GURU1911 Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2010 Location: SEALY, THE REPUBLIC OF TEXAS Posts: 501	Rem. B/a rifles In the past 30 years, i have hot-rodded a pickup truck load of rem. Rifles---model 721 / 722 / 700 / 788 / model 7 / model 600. Have no bench-top experience with the particular model 700 you are currently tweaking & therefore cannot see in my minds eye what the problem is. Maybe you could send me some pics to look at. The shim you are referring to, does it have anything to do with supporting the receiver and / or the rear action screw? Is the purpose of the shim to prevent the receiver from crushing into the stock when torquing both screws ????? Guru1911 __________________ NRA LIFE MEMBER (1984) & PRESIDENT: S.W. LA. R&P CLUB, LAKE CHARLES, LOUISIANA (1994-1999) METALLIC CARTRIDGE RELOADER (1977) & GENTILE CHRISTIAN ZIONIST INFIDEL !!! "THERE AIN'T TOO MANY THINGS THAT YOU CAN'T FIX, WITH $500 DOLLARS OR A .30-06"

June 28, 2011, 04:12 PM	#6
GURU1911 Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2010 Location: SEALY, THE REPUBLIC OF TEXAS Posts: 501	Pics requested AZBY: CAN YOU SEND SOME PICS OF THE BARRELED ACTION, THE SHIM, THE TRIGGER MECHANISM, & WHERE THIS MYSTERY "SHIM" SUPPOSEDLY GOES ??? JIM & I ARE BAFFLED BY YOUR PROBLEM, AS WE BOTH ARE VERY FAMILIAR WITH REM BOLT ACTIONS. MAYBE IF BOTH COULD LOOK AT SOME PHOTOS OF WHAT YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO DESCRIBE, I BET BETWEEN THE TWO OF US WE CAN DEVELOP A WORKABLE SOLUTION FOR YOU. PROMISE US TWO OLD POOTS WILL GIVE IT OUR BEST EFFORT !!!! RIGHT JIM ???? MICHAEL WHITLOCK (aka: GURU1911) __________________ NRA LIFE MEMBER (1984) & PRESIDENT: S.W. LA. R&P CLUB, LAKE CHARLES, LOUISIANA (1994-1999) METALLIC CARTRIDGE RELOADER (1977) & GENTILE CHRISTIAN ZIONIST INFIDEL !!! "THERE AIN'T TOO MANY THINGS THAT YOU CAN'T FIX, WITH $500 DOLLARS OR A .30-06" Last edited by GURU1911; June 28, 2011 at 07:35 PM.

June 29, 2011, 07:14 AM	#9
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Ok, now I understand the "lose bolt" thing (actually how the bolt can be held strongly was the real question). The bolt is supposed to be lose, what happens is that with the magazine being in too tight the feed lips put pressure on the bolt, giving you that (desirable but not intended) snug feel. Once you shim the metal to allow the magazine to sit right the magazine no longer contacts the bolt - regular operations. I'm not even sure you need to start messing with the stock, just check if you can shim the front screw to prevent the "bowing" of the bottom metal. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

June 27, 2011, 04:02 PM	#2
GURU1911 Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2010 Location: SEALY, THE REPUBLIC OF TEXAS Posts: 501	Is the magazine not fitting properly, because the hole in the stock where the magazine is inserted is too tight toward the rear ????? If it is, the b&c stock can be gently filed with a half-round tapered fine cut file or a dremel tool with the cylindrical burr, to remove some of the stock material that is interfering with proper insertion of the mag. Guru1911 __________________ NRA LIFE MEMBER (1984) & PRESIDENT: S.W. LA. R&P CLUB, LAKE CHARLES, LOUISIANA (1994-1999) METALLIC CARTRIDGE RELOADER (1977) & GENTILE CHRISTIAN ZIONIST INFIDEL !!! "THERE AIN'T TOO MANY THINGS THAT YOU CAN'T FIX, WITH $500 DOLLARS OR A .30-06"

June 27, 2011, 04:14 PM	#3
Azby Junior Member Join Date: June 7, 2011 Posts: 9	The problem is not the hole in the stock. It seems to be the torque applied to the bottom metal when both screws are tightened to spec. There's a 0.030 shim at the rear; if you tighten the rear screw down you can feel a definite flexing in the bottom metal if you push on it (or put a screw in) at the front screw hole. Anyway, I 'think' I can fix this by tapering the rear shim. What I don't know how to fix is the loose, floppy bolt (due to the shim lifting the trigger mechanisim off of the bolt). Any ideas on that one?

June 27, 2011, 11:25 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I am trying to visualize how the shim lifts the trigger mechanisim off of the bolt. The trigger mechanism is screwed to the receiver and except for the sear doesn't really bear on the bolt. The bolt on the Remington 700 is a bit loose in the receiver (as it is on most bolt action rifles), it is not intended to fit like a piston. There is usually not a noticeable rattle because the magazine follower, not the trigger, maintains pressure on the bolt. Jim

June 28, 2011, 05:26 PM	#7
Azby Junior Member Join Date: June 7, 2011 Posts: 9	Actually Jim Keenan is right; the trigger isn't being lifted off of the bolt-the magazine is being lifted away by the shim. For all: this is a shim washer that fits between the bottom metal/magazine assembly and the aluminum bedding block in the stock around the rear action screw(this stock has a full length bedding block, not just pillers). Without the shim the magazine won't even clip in to the latch (this latch is located on the front/inside of the trigger guard). Without the shim the bolt is "loose" but not floppy loose as it is with the shim. But without the shim the magazine will not fit and the rifle will not feed.

June 28, 2011, 07:04 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It sounds like you are trying to put the barrelled action in from the top of the stock, and the trigger guard/floorplate in from the bottom and expecting everything to just fit. But that stock has to be fitted. What you want to do is to work slowly on the stock (and any pillars, etc.) until the action and magazine fit together the way they are designed to do. Try putting the parts together without the stock and I think you will see how they go together. I am not familiar with that particular stock, so I don't know what you may need in the way of stock-maker's tools or marking material, or where, if anywhere, you may need shims, but you want things tight without crushing the stock or putting too much strain on the action. Once you know what the situation is, you begin to fit the stock by removing stock material at the critical points until everything fits snugly together. Then I think your magazine will fit fine and the sloppy bolt won't be sloppy any more. (Didn't Doris Day do something like that?) Jim

June 29, 2011, 09:40 AM	#10
Azby Junior Member Join Date: June 7, 2011 Posts: 9	Jim, This is all supposed to be "drop-in and bolt-together" stuff; no fitting reqired. The first two I did were just that and worked fine. The Wyatt's bottom metal/magazine is a drop in to Bell & Carlson stocks. They do claim that shimming may sometimes be needed, though. Apparently this is one of those times. I will try putting the pieces together without the stock. That does seem like a really good way for me to see what is going on. Maybe I can determine if my tapered shim idea (see below) is feasable. Mapsjanhere, All right, that's clearer to me now. I'm going to try to taper the rear shim (its a washer) from 0.030 down to about 10-15 thou. on the front end and see if that takes the torque out of the bottom metal and mag. If I put a shim (any shim I've tried up to this point) in the front it tips the magazine down to the point that it wont feed at all (and it has a mirror polished feed ramp). Thanks, guys.