Do you carry OC / Pepper Spray?

[riverkeeper]

local female Nat Park person was attacked and wrestled to the ground by a serial rapist. She eventually got him solid with pepper spray and stopped the attack.

Spray ain't brains or magic in a can and applied properly may only be 70-80% effective. But we carry virtually 100% of the time. We've only used it on (mostly illegally) unleashed big dogs who chase and threaten us at under 8 ft when we jog. If their mothers or owners wont train them ---we will.

[Para Bellum]

(mostly illegally) unleashed big dogs who chase and threaten us at under 8 ft when we jog.

that's one of the things I can stand the least. Gr-rrr

If their mothers or owners wont train them ---we will.

[Lion In Winter]

To be the "contrarian" here, imagine what a prosecuting attorney could say to a jury when he directs their attention to your self defense "tools"; a handgun or two, a reload or two, pepper spray, taser, clip it knife and maybe an expanding baton.

"You need all this to go to the store for a loaf of bread?---Mr. Rambo!"

At some point, the realization may come that there is no deflecting a smart a-- question in a court room nor avoiding using lethal force.

[Kalindras]

Yep, we carry, every day. Being a correctional officer, it's all we get, so you better believe that we gotta be confident in it!

We carry a number of different flavours, but they all work about the same. We use LE-10, Sabre Red, and another one that escapes me, just now. They're all around 10%, and as others can and have attested, if you don't think you can trust its ability to 'distract' you from pretty much anything but screaming and clawing at your face, then I would like to invite you to try some out on yourself. Only, if you decide to, please video it and post it on the internet...

Finally, one note about the Fox Labs stuff. It's hot. DAMNED hot. I'm led to understand by one of my fellow officers (who had the unpleasant misfortune of being a test subject in an, er...'unofficial'...comparison) that it will blister skin ON CONTACT. While this is certainly not your top concern at the time a mugger/rapist/goblin is attempting to waylay you, it may become a concern when said Bad Guy decides to sue you for damages, pain and suffering, and whatnot, later.

Just something to keep in mind. Pretty much the same argument as whether or not to load your CCW with hollowpoints or ball, from that standpoint. You want the best to protect yourself, but unfortunately, the best defense can also be the most costly, afterward. Unfortunately, this is a conundrum I have yet to resolve . If anyone comes up with a solution that works all the way 'round, please let me know!!

[djw6611]

I really wouldn't worry about reports of fox labs "blistering on contact". Hell if it does all the better. But in the very unlikely event that it does end up in a court room, fox labs is ONLY 2% pepper spray (not that that matters but a jury would think so), compared to the standard 10%. Plus it is a widely used and accepted spray in both the civilian and law enforcement fields, so you shouldn't run into any problems.

[U.F.O.]

djw6611, read some of the previous posts in this thread. You, also, are confused about the meaning of the 2%/10% in regards to OC. Those percentages have nothing to do with the heat of the mixture.

U.F.O.

[abelew]

UFO is correct, just because a spray is 10% compaired to 2% does not mean that the 2% is less painfull. Pepper spray is measured in "hottness" using the scoville heat unit. If the 2% spray has a higher SHU, then it is actually a "hotter spray than the 10%. Food for thought, next time you buy a spray, compaire the rating, not the percentage, if you want the "hottest."

Also, I feel that if you can articulate why you had other options avaliable, then that question would work for you, instead of against you. No sane person is going to carry a gun, spray, tazer, asp, club, knife, sword, and billy club to buy bread. However, if you carried spray and a gun, then you could always point out that not all situations warrent deadly force, and that you, as a responsible person who is concerned with your personal safety, wanted an intermediate option to go to. Spray has no effect, other than causing a very strong burning sensation, and does not do any actual physical harm. Then point out that police carry it for that reason also. Personally, I feel that if your going to carry a gun, then it is respoinsiable to carry spray, because even in a fist fight, there is a gun present (yours), so you wanted an option to prevent the person from incapacitating you, and using your gun against you and others. If someone pulled spray on me, (from personal experience with spray already mentioned in this thread), I would shoot them, because I will be incapacitated if I am sprayed (after being sworn in as a LEO), and my firearm could be taken and used against me. Now, don't take this to mean that a civilian can shoot a person for pulling spray on them, talk to your lawyer. However, the FL use of force matrix does allow that action for that reason.

[almark]

I agree with abelew and UFO on the SHU vs. percentage issue, however, I think you guys might have misread djw6611's post. I believe he intended it be more like "It's 'ONLY' 2%..." as in, that would sound like a good thing in court if it should happen to blister the BG. djw6611 states that the percentage doesn't matter, but to your average, uninformed citizen (aka jury member) it would sound like you "didn't wanna hurt the guy too bad... thats why I use the 2% spray..." That's how I read the post anyway.

[U.F.O.]

Thx. almark. After a re-read I think you're right on his intent. Also, his previous posts thoroughly indicate he knows the drill.

U.F.O.

[djw6611]

Yeah it may have come out wrong but I was just saying "in the mind of a juror" when you say "oh this spray is ONLY 2%" they will think it is somehow less potent etc etc and as such you will be let off.

You are all correct in that it is the heat level that matters. But also keep in mind that a 2% spray will wear off faster than a 10% spray. Some departments use these lower percentage sprays for lower decon times of prisoners (so they don't have to babysit them waiting for it to wear off). A 2% spray might take say 20 minutes while a 10% maybe 30-45 minutes.

Decon time doesnt really matter to me, its the inital takedown power that counts which is why I like FOX. If I can't get away from a BG in 15-20 minutes something is wrong. Plus with foxlabs on your face each minute feels like an hour!

[abelew]

DJW, did ya test it on yourself?

[djw6611]

never took a direct hit to the face but have had it blow back onto me during use and been inside rooms where it had been used. the burning is bad but it made me cough so hard I almost puked

[TallPine]

Another thing ... since I have asthma, I don't even want to find out what even a whiff of OC might do to me ...

I have taken to carrying a Maxfire flashlight. Since a lot of bad things happen in low light, I figure my first line of defense is too light up someone suspicious that approaches me. Lets me see what is going on and pretty much blinds them in the process.

[caegal]

To be the "contrarian" here, imagine what a prosecuting attorney could say to a jury when he directs their attention to your self defense "tools"; a handgun or two, a reload or two, pepper spray, taser, clip it knife and maybe an expanding baton."You need all this to go to the store for a loaf of bread?---Mr. Rambo!"

The bigger fear would be if you had pepper spray and a gun, and you decided to use the gun. The fear then would be that the DA would be able to show that you had a less lethal weapon, and instead went for the kill. The DA would try to prove that you could of disarmed the BG, and instead chose the gun because of some sort of Charles Bronson fixation.

[U.F.O.]

I don't see that as a problem. If some maniac is running at you with a raised machete screaming "die pig die" I don't see any reasonable person, DA included, who would argue that you had a responsibility to start with the non-lethal OC. You're allowed to meet lethal offensive force with lethal defensive force, bypassing the conversation, fists, OC etc. in the process.

U.F.O.

[caegal]

You are probably right about it not happening. I was just stating what the arguement would be if an attorney did decide to prosecute when you had the pepper spray and a gun. It was only meant in the context of a possible legal liability of carrying multiple weapons and choosing one over the other. The statement was not intended to be advice to not carry multiple means of self defense.


The police are already facing issues about using less lethal means. Children, elderly, and handicapped people getting pepper sprayed and tazered make the headlines all the time. The questions are always, "why did the police use that, instead of less lethal means?" The same question can be asked if you decide to shoot instead of pepper spray someone. That does not mean that a DA will prosecute, just that there is the question. And whenever there is a question that is hanging out there that sound reasonable enough, then there is a chance of at least a civil lawsuit.

[U.F.O.]

Not to worry caegal. Carry OC and a firearm. If some big mug starts to try and beat your brains out with his fists.....squirt him with the OC and vacate. If he picks up a baseball bat.....tire iron.....screwdriver.....knife.....gun.....shoot him and let the chips fall where they may. I'll take a lawsuit any day over a screwdriver in the chest. Meet force with force. If you don't do it.....you'll likely end up dead. Damn the attorneys.

U.F.O.