Cast Bullets: What's the truth?

[Sevens]

...and I welcome input from Mike @ Mastercast since this guy lives and breathes cast bullets. And anyone else who can help.

I love cast bullets. If it shoots accurately and it's cheaper, I don't care nearly as much about anything else. If it's not the best ballistic performer, I don't mind. If it makes my handguns dirty, no problem because I enjoy cleaning them. If it's a health hazard indoors, not a big deal to me because I shoot outside. If I can't send them at magnum velocities, I'll load them slower, no problem.

But that's just it. As I understand, shooting undersize cast bullets, especially at a high rate of speed is where you begin to lead up your barrel. It's not the speed, right? It's the gas cutting around the edges of the bullet, melting the lead?

I'm left with questions. I'd like to know how I'm supposed to load my cast bullets and how hard I can push them before I've gone too far. I've seen suggestions of slugging the barrel to see what my particular handgun has to say, but that only leaves me with more questions.

Questions such as--how do I do this? A lead sinker, for fishing is the tool, yes? Which part am I slugging? If it's a revolver, am I pushing lead through the cylinder too, or just from the forcing cone on down? And how far do I push it? Out the muzzle... and if so, how do I accomplish this with a revolver?

I currently load cast in 9, 38/357, 10, 45 and 44 mag.
In 38 and 45, I'm not concerned with pushing bullets fast.

In 9, I don't need fast either, but I do need the load to operate my pistol every time. In 10, I'd like to keep the speed in check, but this is a high power, high speed, high pressure round and the pistol begs to be pushed just so it'll function. In .357, I want to make the rounds feel, sounds and act like a .357 round is supposed to. Can I do that with cast lead, or only jacketed?

In .44 mag, I'm using a T/C Contender with a 10-inch barrel so I've got a stout platform. Should I be staying at or under 1,000 fps, or is the sky the limit?

How do I approach these loads with cast bullets? The bullets I have are from a semi-local caster named Vance Bullets out of Rushelvania, Ohio. There's no BHN hardness listed on these boxes. They also don't list a bullet diameter, just a caliber.

I'm sure that these are questions answered easier if you are familiar with the specific bullet maker. I'd imagine Mike can answer things about his bullets that may not apply to "Joe's Homebrew Bullet Works". Just the same, I seek help on this subject.

I'm disappointed because I tried to figure out all these answers myself on www.castboolits.com, but those folks are so far deep in to their hobby that most everything on there is either over my head or completely uninteresting to me.

So who among us is a cast bullet guru with all the answers I seek?!

[Hawg]

To slug a bore take a soft oversize fishing weight and drive it down the bore with a wood dowel. With a revolver remove or open the cylinder and drive it through from the muzzle. Measure across the lands to find bore size. If you go over 1000 fps use gas checks and a hard cast bullet. I've pushed home cast 255 gr. SWC's out of a .44 mag with 13 grs of Unique with fantastic accuracy. If you must try this load work your way up to it because it's beyond published Ruger only data.

[Sevens]

The lands-- that's the outermost "rifling" when I pull the slug out?

Also, I forgot one important question--
Is it, "Don't shoot jacketed bullets after shooting lead without first cleaning the bore" ?
Or is it the other way around? Does anyone?

[azredhawk44]

Definitely not a guru, but let me offer my experiences.

I love Mastercast's offerings. I just recently bought about 4000 bullets from them in .357-158gr, 44-200gr, 44-240gr and 45-230gr. Prior to that I've shot a couple thousand of cast boolits ranging in provider and caliber from Berry's in .400corbon to Lasercast and Beartooth in 44mag to Billy's Bullets (a moly-coated lead bullet) in 45acp and some other stuff.

I have never slugged any of my barrels. I lack the tools to do so, and it has never hurt me yet. I load lead for economy, and so I am not pushing my magnum revolver offerings to anything near their maximums (with the exception of the Beartooth bullets in 44mag which are equipped with gas checks).

My typical load for 44mag pushes a 240gr LSWC pill of any make at a published velocity of ~1400fps... I don't have a chronograph. I use AA#7 in a well referenced and published load to attain that velocity, and I am at least 1.5gr below the published maximum. It is a very easy shooting load that I enjoy.

I have yet to experience any dramatic leading on either of my Redhawks or my SP101. There is just the slightest grey tinge in the barrel consisting of a combination of powder fouling and lead deposits. It comes out very easily with a pass or two from the bore snake.

With 45acp (platform at the time was a factory-barreled Glock 21), I did experience a little bit of leading on a typical 75-100 round shooting session. I attribute this mostly due to the rifling of the barrel and the fact that I chose to use Winchester 231 powder rather than something a bit slower in burn rate such as AA#5, Unique or Titegroup. When I rebarrelled the G21 to 400corbon, my leading problems went away. This was due to a combination of a slower powder used and a barrel that used traditional rifling rather than the glock proprietary rifling (pentagonal, I think it's called... the lands are sharp and thin rather than wide with a bearing surface).

Burning the bottom of the bullet contributes to leading just as much as gas escaping around the sides of the bullet. Too fast of a powder will do that.

Frankly, the worst leading I get any time is from my Taurus 94, which is a poorly made .22LR 9-shooter that shaves lead at the forcing cone like crazy.

[CrustyFN]

I was wondering. I have never slugged a barrel and was wondering if this would work. In the picture below would I be able to use the opposite side from the bullet to stick in the end of the barrel and measure that way? Would that be as accurate as pushing a fishing weight through the barrel and measuring it?
Rusty

[Crosshair]

Richard Lee showed cast bullet shooters that it was mainly pressure, not velocity that was the limit of cast bullets. If you have too much pressure, you exceed the strength of the bullet and you get case cutting witch results in leading and poor accuracy. The harder the bullet, the more pressure it could withstand.

Swaged lead bullets are quite soft and thus cannot take much pressure, thus why most makers recommend limiting them to low velocities. They are easier to mass produce though. Bullets case from wheel weights can be pushed much harder because their alloy is stronger.

So what does all this mean? As a general rule, if you want to go as fast as possible, stick with as slow a powder as possible. There will still be some trial and error though.

[Travis Two]

The web site at www.pennbullets.com has a wealth of information you are looking for along with a wide selection of the very best cast bullets you will find anywhere. The owner is superbly knowledgeable and very helpful. I have recieved many detailed e-mails answering my questions in a way that makes it easy to understand. I have also had many good phone conversations and despite the time it takes him away from his buisness he has always taken the time to answer my questions completly.

[imdarren]

This web site was BY FAR the most helpful for me to understand cast bullets and their application.
It's the Los Angeles Silhouette club web page.
http://www.lasc.us/

It's best to poke around a bit and read some of the articles about BHN, and lead alloys, but you will learn a ton!
If I were you, try and get the BHN number from your bullet supplier. The lower BHN numbers around 12 - 16 you shoot slower. Most cast bullets are cast harder so they dont get dinged up in shipping / handling.
Most comercial cast bullets are around 20 ~ 24 BHN. These like to be pushed faster. They need to go faster for proper obturation.
Obturation is somthing you need to read about / learn about on the LASC web site articles.
I shoot my 44mag cast bullets from Oregon Trail / Laser Cast at around 1,400 FPS. They are 24 BHN This is so proper obturation occurs, and keeps leading to a minimum.
Hope this helps some.

[Sevens]

Wow, that site is really quite amazing. Very smooth and well put-together. A bit of information overload, but terrific reading!

I've got plenty more to read... but at this point, I came to the same conclusion that you suggested: I need to know the BHN of my bullets. I'm not likely to find this out easily. I've tried running web searches, but the caster of my bullets isn't on the web.

Something else that's annoying... anyone who loads his own eventually ends up working with cast bullets. We all figure out that they'll do damn near everything that jacketed bullets will do, and they do it cheaper and they are even less stress on your barrel.

BUT... when you go to powder manufacturer's web site looking for load data, you are lucky to see even a couple that are specifically designed around a cast bullet. Most all of everyone's data was built around jacketed bullet loads.

Perhaps this is because there can be quite a difference across cast bullets from different makers. Either way, it's frustrating.

I'm beginning to think that I'm pretty much just going to build some loads, and work my up with them and shine a bright light down the bore when I get the handguns home and see if I'm leading up my barrel.

[Grandpa Shooter]

Sevens:

I have been reloading about 14 years now. I load almost exclusively Lead bullets for use in my pistols and carbines. I use the best bullets I can find on the market. Some of the best bullets I have gotten have been Billy Bullets because they are moly coated. The moly coating gives them a much more slippery surface and also helps reduce, if not eliminate, leading. They can be loaded to higher velocities and in my guns are very accurate. The latest supplier I am trying is Mastercastbullets.com. Mike (not Mike of mastercast) is a retired LEO who loves what he does. He is very willing to answer questions about his product and will send you info by email if you need it.

I do not represent either Billy Bullets or Mastercastbullets, but will stand by the quality of the product, having used them myself.

[ShootingNut]

Your Mike is at www.mastercast.net , and as you say our other Mike is at the website you have posted.
Dang computers, just one letter off will screw up a sought after link!
SN

[tkcomer]

I've shot cast bullets for years and never had a problem until now. Bought a 44 mag Puma levergun. I have some unknown plated bullets that measure out at .429. These shoot great out of my S&W 629 but shot gun out of my rifle. Bad. 8" groups at 25 yards with no consistency. I've been told to slug the barrel, but instead, I took one of the bullets and tapped it into the barrel and pulled it back out. The bullet has land groves in it. Slight, but they're there. I've got .431 bullets ordered from Laser Cast hoping they will do a better job. I hope I'm going in the right direction for this gun.

[WESHOOT2]

1) Hornady swaged lead round balls; I have some .433".

2) wooden dowel of correct diameter to easily fit yet mostly fill the bore, and sufficient length to drive the ball completely through the bore.

3) hammer for driving the dowel.

4) oil, which is first swabbed down the bore.

First, liberally swab the bore with an oil-saturated patch (I use-n-prefer Tetragun lube).
Place the 'ball' on the muzzle (if a revolver) or in the chamber (if an autoloader, or if the barrel is free from the receiver).
Gently smash it into the bore. Once started, finish driving it through using the dowel.
Then measure; suggest ten-thou mike.
Then know.

I like bullets sized one to two thou 'over', but I have many bullets, and I test first before making a zillion.....

[hikingman]

Haven't used gas checks here, any good links?, help my understanding a bit...

The following link had very little discussion:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ght=gas+checks

[tkcomer]

Doesn't the fact that the bullet has grooves in it tell that bore is slightly smaller than the bullet? So if I go to a .431 bullet, the gun should shoot better shouldn't it?

[Grandpa Shooter]

Just so things are slightly clearer.

One Mike is in Pa. and casts bullets. He is at www.mastercast.net I know nothing about him or his bullets, but have read high praise for him.

The other Mike, whom I have bought from and communicate with regularly since he is an old reprobate coot like me, is at www.mastercastbullets.com

I want to make sure this gets straight so I don't have the other Mike thinking I am bashing him. He may be an old coot too!

[hikingman]

Sevens, Here's an image illustrating G - Grooves, and L - Lands.

[freakshow10mm]

Slugging a bore means to push a soft pure lead slug (bullet, sinker, mass) down the barrel. I use a cleaning rod and a mallet. Some use wooden dowels. Same results. When slugging a bore, you will have a negative impression of the bore dimensions.

The largest dimension of the slug is the groove diameter of the bore. This is the measurement of interest. The smallest portion of the slug is the land diamter. We don't use this in the cast bullet world. Your bullet diameter should match or be +.001" over the groove diamter for pistols and rifles. For revolvers, they should match the smallest throat of the cylinder. See below.

In pistols and rifles, it is easiest to slug from muzzle to chamber as you can work the slug back into the action in a straight line. For pistol barrels, I remove them and put them in a vise.

Same deal with revolvers-muzzle to breech, but I swing the cylider out and put the whole gun in a vise. For slugging the throats in a revolver cylinder, you do the opposite, work from back to front (barrel points away from you). Each throat dimension might be different than the others. It is recommended to get the throats matched (reamed to same size) to optimize for lead bullets.

In revolvers, you are working with two pieces, the barrel and the cylinder. Ideally the throats should measure .001" over groove diameter. So for the 38/357 Mag, groove is usually .357-.3575" and groove should be .358-.3585". In Ruger GP100 revolvers, the groove is .3575" and the throats are .357". This gun is optimized for jacketed bullets. A simple throat ream to .358" is needed to optimize. Some revolver throats are grossly oversized, as is the case with many .45 Colt guns.

Leading is a relationship between these elements: chamber pressure, bullet hardness, and bullet fit, assuming your lube is up to the task of withstanding all these factors.

We already addressed bullet fit above, your bullet diameter must match groove diamter or in revolvers, the throat diameter.

Bullet hardness and chamber pressure are related. Obturation is when the bullet expands under pressure to fit the groove of the barrel. For a given chamber pressure, if the bullet is too hard the bullet won't obturate and gas will leak around the bullet into the grooves and you will have leading. Or it could be said that the chamber pressure is too low for the hardness. Sort of a partly cloudy/partly sunny thing.

To find if your bullet hardness is up to the task of bullet obturation under your chamber pressure, multiply the BHN rating by 1422 and that will get you the pressure needed to get complete obturation. Or if you know the chamber pressure of your handloads (via data in the manual) divide that number by 1422 and that will give a BHN rating to get complete obturation.

For the most part, handguns do well with BHN ratings between 9-12. Magnum velocities will dictate a BHN of 15, the old Lyman #2 alloy.

Truth is most cast bullet manufacturers don't make hard (+15 BHN) bullets because they are any better than softer bullets. They do it for damage control. Most casters ship bullets to customers and they make their bullets hard enough to withstand the rigors of being handled by our beloved USPS workers.

I run cast bullets in my guns ranging from the 32 H&R to 45 Auto to the 10mm to 45/70 to 375 H&H Magnum. Ninety-five percent of my bullets are cast at a BHN rating of 12 and I get no leading at all.

Hope this helps.

Adam
Freakshow Bullets

[crowbeaner]

I'm far from anything resembling a guru, but I have made a few observations over the years. First, plainbase bullets will lead the bore regardless of hardness if you use fast burning powders that flame cut the base. Second, use GOOD lube; the better the lube the faster you can shoot them before the bullet starts to strip out in the lands. This is especially evident when your barrel warms up, expanding the barrel diameter. Third, using a gascheck design without the check will cause more leading than a full caliber plainbase band. Fourth, polygonal barrels are more finicky about bullet hardness AND speed than traditional rifled barrels. Some will tolerate lead bullets, and some simply won't. You have to try them to see. Fifth, unless your bullets drop at least .002 over groove diameter, you have to size them to true up the base. Last, gascheck designs are best for heavy loads and so/so alloys. The check gives the base the same diameter shot to shot and actually cleans out a little leading on it's way down the barrel. It also helps true up the round by making the cartridge sit in the chamber the same shot to shot, and may help align the cartridge base in the cylinder because the check expands the case just that little bit you can hardly see. These things are NOT set in stone, and some guns require a bit more (sometimes a LOT more) experimentation to get things working right. SOME simply were made to be sold to the next unsuspecting soul for him/her to pull their hair out trying everything you did, but forgot to tell them. CB.

[Sevens]

Excellent information throughout this thread. Much thanks to everyone who has added their two cents!