Situational awareness while doing #2..... - Page 2

Doug.38PR · January 18, 2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Such that they were disarmed, discovered as armed or successfully attacked? Being attacked because you were in the sleaze bag bar at 3:00 AM - no sympathy from me.

+1 GM
Might as well worry about whether we can readily get to our gun when we are in the shower or bath tub. We've seen enough movies where bad guy catches good guy behind a shower stall or taking a bubble bath. Gun under the soap suds or behind the stall (John Wayne as Big Jake with a shotgun comes to mind) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K26s4tlxung

Glenn E. Meyer · January 18, 2007, 05:50 PM

American Handgunner had an hysterical cartoon of a guy ready for action in the shower. It was quite a few years ago and based on the concept of a different gun for each room. It was a satire of Ayoob's article of a different gun for each season.

Had a naked fat guy - like us middle aged to older dudes - in a shower cap and hung with bandoliers of shotgun shells and various guns and knives.

However, the letter column had later mail denouncing the magazine for not taking this issue as important.

Damn, I was going to buy a Winchester 1300 Marine Defender for bathtub defense.

Most of these bizarre scenarios are based on failures of situational awareness such that the bather or crapper didn't take rudementary precautions.

NCHornet · January 18, 2007, 06:35 PM

The Koala Changing stations make a great place to set your piece while you do your business.!!

This can be a serious issue. My best friend was a LA county deputy and while droping a duece in a public restroom he dropped his britches and his Model 60 dropped out on the floor , right towards the guy next store, this is in LA remember. The guy jumped off the throne and ran out of the bathroom , didn't even bother to clean himself. My buddy knew what was coming next so he finished his business quick and got out of there. I have never been made while carrying and I don't plan to, so while some want to laugh at a post like this, it does have it's value!!

protectedbyglock · January 18, 2007, 07:50 PM

That's why I have a blackhawk holster. The gun can't drop out, and if I do get into a fight somewhere, then my attacker is gonna have to rip through 3inches of leather belt to get it. Perfect time to bash him in the head, I do believe. And after you practice with it a little bit, you can draw a lot quicker than you ever thought you'd be able to. It starts to become natural. I'm not sure if it would still be natural in a life or death situation, but I sure hope so!

Anyway, back to question #2. I understand being prepared. Keep your eyes and ears open all the time. This is very important. However, this all seems like overkill. How often do people really get mugged etc. when they are taking a crap? I guess it's a pretty vulnerable spot, really, when you think about it. However, I think I would feel weird laying my gun on a toilet or changing table or toilet paper holder. I don't know why it seems strange. Maybe because I don't like the thought of my piece not being on ME.

This post reminds me of that movie Pulp Fiction. John Travolta's character had the same problem. He left his gun on the kitchen counter while he took a dump. Big mistake, 'cause Bruce Willis blasted his ass with it!!

Big Don · January 18, 2007, 09:39 PM

I needed the laughs this thread has caused

I have to admit it's a strange topic but one that people have thought about, obviously. Otherwise, it would have died a lonely, responseless death

The hammock method, always.
The zipper opening method, always.
If you have to tuck your shirt in, go into a stall.
Thanks for the fun and not closing the thread

gdvan01 · January 18, 2007, 10:57 PM

Best. Thread. Ever.

Gazpacho · January 19, 2007, 12:29 AM

This has never been much of an issue for me. I carry in a fanny pack. (The Original Tommy's Gunpack) On the can, I hike up the pack until the belt is under my arms. The draw doesn't change. At the urinal, I just pull the pouch up a little. In that instance, the draw is actually a little quicker (no pun intended!) Sitting, standing, walking, running, lying down, belted in the car, the draw doesn't change.

stephen426 · January 19, 2007, 12:43 AM

Quote:

This has never been much of an issue for me. I carry in a fanny pack. (The Original Tommy's Gunpack) On the can, I hike up the pack until the belt is under my arms. The draw doesn't change. At the urinal, I just pull the pouch up a little. In that instance, the draw is actually a little quicker (no pun intended!) Sitting, standing, walking, running, lying down, belted in the car, the draw doesn't change.

While the fanny pack certainly is convenient, nothing screams "GUN" quite like a fanny pack on a guy, especially a large fanny pack (even worse if it is square).

If I am wearing slacks instead of jeans, I usually pocket carry my Glock 26 and carry my wallet in front of it to hide the outline. Pocket carry prevents many of the complications mentioned on this thread. If I carry on my hip, I usually have to go into a stall. Dropping your gun in a public restroom is not considered good form. Dropping your gun in the toilet is even worse. Dropping your gun in the the toilet after you've done your business... Priceless!

Gazpacho · January 19, 2007, 01:28 AM

I live in Las Vegas. LOTS of people wear fanny packs. Also it is small, about the side of two paperback books side by side. Finally, I stitched a Nike Swoosh onto the front of it.

People don't give it a FIRST look.

GalilARM · January 19, 2007, 01:53 AM

Quote:

I take off both my trouser and the underwear. (and yes, shoes, too) I go "full super commando".

My reason is that when performing #2, the trousers and underwear (if you're not going "commando") around my ankle severly limits my mobility if not taken off.

...and that's why I also carry my double wrapped plastic bags so that I can put my trouser, and underwear in it if the floor is too grubby, and ditch the outside plastic layer so that my duffle bag wouldn't be contaminated by the foreign materials from the floor.

I also carry another plastic sheet so that I can put my feet on while taking off and putting on the shoes, the trouser, and the underwear if the floor is too grubby.

Hahahaha sorry this is too funny....I'm sorry it just is. No offense intended, but I bet it takes you a good hour to do your duty. There's nothing wrong with being safe...but there's gotta be a better way mate

Doug.38PR · January 19, 2007, 02:59 AM

:barf: ugggghhhh

I have a hunch this thread isn't going to see another sunrise. The details and literal bathroom humor keep on.

Red Grant · January 19, 2007, 03:05 AM

Yeah, I was kinda afraid of that.

It's obvious most of who posted in this thread haven't read Brent's article.

stephen426 · January 19, 2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

I live in Las Vegas. LOTS of people wear fanny packs. Also it is small, about the side of two paperback books side by side. Finally, I stitched a Nike Swoosh onto the front of it.

People don't give it a FIRST look.

Gazpacho,

I'm glad the fanny pack works for you. I agree that it is a convenient and easy way to carry a handgun. I guess if lots of people use them in your area, then it won't seem conspicuous. Too bad they aren't more common everywhere else.

Trip20 · January 19, 2007, 09:21 AM

I don't know what's more entertaining, the bizarre rituals described in post #5, or that some can't handle a discussion involving bathroom activities.

If we're discussing responsible behavior such as safe firearm handling in a precarious position (i.e., the literal "being caught with your pants down")... what’s the big deal?

Glenn E. Meyer · January 19, 2007, 09:58 AM

If one has a quality IWB holster it will hold the gun firmly even with your pants down. Thus, one can cant the gun into your pants from the side of your pants without having to remove it.

It probably won't be visible unless someone decides to crawl under the stall.

Next, if you are on the crapper and someone starts hassling you - as in most self defense situations - loud vocalizations in a 'command' voice mode usually announces you are determined to defend yourself.

I really fail to see the problem for folks who choose their throne well and have reasonable awareness. Again, if you hang out in sleaze bag bars - that's life.

GalilARM · January 19, 2007, 10:23 AM

I had been talking up this website for a while to one of my shooting buddies, and I guess he finally ventured over to the site last night because I got a message saying "so that firing line forum you told me about....yeah they talk about how to defend yourself while going number two....you sure about that place?" A little more reading shows you guys are both serious and informative though. This thread is just a little....different.

Trip20 · January 19, 2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

If you frequent low life places - what do you expect?

Quote:

Being attacked because you were in the sleaze bag bar at 3:00 AM - no sympathy from me.

Quote:

Again, if you hang out in sleaze bag bars - that's life.

I see a pattern here. Separate from your issue with people who do not hang out in your opinion of the ideal social atmospheres is the fact that not all bathroom muggings or similar crimes will take place in back alley biker bar full of ex cons.

Likelihood increased in those locations? Sure. But that’s not the point.

Regardless of where our differing lifestyles take us, we all have a right to be safe and free from attack. So it matters little for the purpose of this thread whether or not the scenario takes place in your contemptuous sleezy bar, or the Nordstrom where you can frolic unarmed because it’s so safe.

This thread is about handling a firearm while takin’ a poo. Not about approving or disapproving where one poos.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 19, 2007, 11:15 AM

My point is the extreme paranoia and tactical peeing and pooping protocols can be modified by doing one's business in legitimate venues such that one reduces the probability of attack while on the throne.

It is the same kind of analysis that leads folks to conclude that a J frame is sufficient for most concealed carry situations. If you use common sense, perhaps you don't have to sit in Condition Orange while you honk away.

The SWAT article described some less than pristine venues for possible attacks.

I'm sorry if my analysis of situational awarness offends your lifestyle choices. I choose to poop in the classy restrooms of Nordstroms or the homey venues of Cracker Barrel when on the road. Most nice motels at exits on the Interstates have restrooms.

Again - we have the claim that public restrooms are prime locations for muggings. Give me a case of a CCW type with appropriate situational awareness that got into a gun fight, was mugged, lost his or her from a quality holster while on the throne.

Otherwise, the thread is a joke and I treat it as such.

Trip20 · January 19, 2007, 11:54 AM

“If you choose to live in a bad area – no sympathy from me.”

Well, we know that’s a load of crap. Hey, is that a pun?

We wouldn’t have an abundance of home defense chat around here if all bad things happened in bad neighborhoods because a majority of us, I’ll wager, don’t live in those stereotypical bad neighborhoods. But we still discuss tactics and strategies involved with defending our blissful suburbia homesteads nonetheless.

Just because I might find it easier to provide cases of home defense situation more easily than cases of bathroom defense situations, neither qualifies the former, nor disqualifies the latter as a topic of consideration.

Quote:

Give me a case of a CCW type with appropriate situational awareness that got into a gun fight, was mugged, lost his or her from a quality holster while on the throne.

Pfff. You put all those qualifiers in there to make it impossible to find a case. What matters is that the below articles proves attacks happen in restrooms. In the cases I link below it shows it doesn't take a sleezy bars at 3am to facilitate an attack.

Here are articles covering attacks that happened in restrooms: Arby's, Pizza Hut, Central Park Restroom.

You’re not going to get any argument from me that the choices we make prior to dropping our drawers lend to the likelihood or lack of encounters with seedy characters. I think I implied as much in my post.

Quote:

I'm sorry if my analysis of situational awarness [sic] offends your lifestyle choices.

Nice try.

markj · January 19, 2007, 03:15 PM

I once read an article about this as a few LEO have actually mis placed weapons when using public restrooms.

I for one never use public restrooms, I eat only cheese and peanut butter when away from home so I am plugged up enough it isnt a problem, then when I get home out comes 2 or 3 cans of peaches, soon after the "plug" comes out and I am OK again in my own home

Of course I have several 12 ga pumps and .45 1911s in the restroom close to hand cause an attack will happen, oh yes it will happen.....

I also have several SS weapons hanging from the shower head and a gun under the mattress. When I go out, it is like that guy in the movie "gonna get you sucker" you know the guy, he has a table top covered with guns he straps on and puts in his pockets, then he falls down the stairs, every gun goes off one at a time

I gotta go to the range now and shoot a bunch I cant wait to tell them about this site

and this thread

Glad I live in Iowa and not where most of you guys live...

Wildalaska · January 19, 2007, 05:08 PM

This is a joke thread, right

Wildnopersonwithn ormalolafactorysensewouldcomenearmeinapublicrestroomwhilstiam2ingAlaska

oldbillthundercheif · January 19, 2007, 06:10 PM

Another vote for the drawers-hammock. I lube my 1911 with graphite so grease stains in odd places are not an issue.

If you keep your carry piece dripping with CLP, this may not be the best option.

Capt. Charlie · January 19, 2007, 10:20 PM

OK, so some have asked why I've left this thread open, and some question the seriousness of the matter.

Time for a short story.

A few years ago, one of my people made an arrest. It was pretty routine, a 68 yr. old male wanted on a bench warrant. Seems he didn't appear in court for a traffic violation.

The officer took it casually. He only did a cursory pat down before placing the man in the cruiser. He brought the man into the station, and I noted without further thought that the man seemed a bit preoccupied with his groin area. Strange, but we get all kinds.

After booking, he was transported to the correctional center. Minutes later, I got a call from the Lt. there, and he was furious. It seems this kindly old gentleman had a loaded, .38 spl. J frame tucked away in his crotch.

What's that got to do with this thread? Well, the arresting officer fell into the same trap that we're all susceptible to. We tend to avoid situations that put us in socially or politically uncomfortable situations, and THAT can be a serious tactical weakness. In this situation, the officer did what comes naturally to most of us; he avoided what most would think of as intimate contact with another male. He avoided a pat down of the man's crotch.

Police academies routinely teach a thorough pat down, done in a professional manner, but I constantly have to review cruiser videos, and frequently see officers making this same, potentially deadly mistake.

Granted, few non-LEO's here will have the opportunity to do a pat down or frisk, but you will still instinctively avoid addressing situations that make you uncomfortable. The bathroom situation immediately comes to mind.

Life is gritty. You can't pick and choose the tactical situations you might find yourself in. With that in mind, you can't afford to ignore thinking and planning for them in advance. To do so leaves a huge and potentially fatal gap in your own defenses. If you're going to play ball, make sure you cover all the bases.

Doug.38PR · January 19, 2007, 10:48 PM

Very true Capt. Very good point. The subject of how to handle your gun in the mens room is worth discussing, but aren't we making more out of this than we need to. We are talking about a small enclosed concealed area like a restroom stall. It's like being in your car's front seat. Everything is within arms reach. A gun on the back of commode in a hip holster or hanging on the door in your coat or even shoulder holster is easily accessible and hidden from public view (it is a bathroom stall). Of course you do want to use a little good sense and watch what public restrooms you use (as Mr. Meyer indicated, a sleezy bar at 3:00 am, bad idea but a clean restaraunt or hotel or office building during normal business hours, usually okay) Isn't that all that needs to be said?

wayneinFL · January 20, 2007, 12:30 AM

I can see three very good reasons for discussing this.

1. Weapons left in restrooms on the back of the toilet. It happens.

2. AD's in the restroom fumbling with a gun someone didn't really think about. At an IPSC match, I overheard a couple of cops discussing a police chief who gave up his gun after sending two toilets to their watery grave. One at the station, the other at a health club.

3. Someone attacking you in the restroom. There was an incident in the "It Happened to me" column in Combat Handguns last year. IIRC, he was mugged at a urinal in a restroom in a rest area.

Personally, I don't worry too much about it as I'm usually just carrying a J-frame in my pocket. If I am carrying a pistol IWB it stays in the holster. My holster has good enough tension to keep it upside down or when I'm running. It works okay while I'm pulling my pants down as well.

January 18, 2007, 05:50 PM	#27
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	American Handgunner had an hysterical cartoon of a guy ready for action in the shower. It was quite a few years ago and based on the concept of a different gun for each room. It was a satire of Ayoob's article of a different gun for each season. Had a naked fat guy - like us middle aged to older dudes - in a shower cap and hung with bandoliers of shotgun shells and various guns and knives. However, the letter column had later mail denouncing the magazine for not taking this issue as important. Damn, I was going to buy a Winchester 1300 Marine Defender for bathtub defense. Most of these bizarre scenarios are based on failures of situational awareness such that the bather or crapper didn't take rudementary precautions. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 18, 2007, 06:35 PM	#28
NCHornet Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2006 Posts: 1,001	The Koala Changing stations make a great place to set your piece while you do your business.!! This can be a serious issue. My best friend was a LA county deputy and while droping a duece in a public restroom he dropped his britches and his Model 60 dropped out on the floor , right towards the guy next store, this is in LA remember. The guy jumped off the throne and ran out of the bathroom , didn't even bother to clean himself. My buddy knew what was coming next so he finished his business quick and got out of there. I have never been made while carrying and I don't plan to, so while some want to laugh at a post like this, it does have it's value!! __________________ When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away!! Carry ON!! NCHornet

January 18, 2007, 09:39 PM	#30
Big Don Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2006 Location: Hayden, ID Posts: 375	I needed the laughs this thread has caused I have to admit it's a strange topic but one that people have thought about, obviously. Otherwise, it would have died a lonely, responseless death The hammock method, always. The zipper opening method, always. If you have to tuck your shirt in, go into a stall. Thanks for the fun and not closing the thread __________________ [SIZE="3"][SIZE="2"]Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you. "If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?"- Benjamin Franklin

January 19, 2007, 09:58 AM	#40
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	If one has a quality IWB holster it will hold the gun firmly even with your pants down. Thus, one can cant the gun into your pants from the side of your pants without having to remove it. It probably won't be visible unless someone decides to crawl under the stall. Next, if you are on the crapper and someone starts hassling you - as in most self defense situations - loud vocalizations in a 'command' voice mode usually announces you are determined to defend yourself. I really fail to see the problem for folks who choose their throne well and have reasonable awareness. Again, if you hang out in sleaze bag bars - that's life. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 19, 2007, 11:15 AM	#43
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	My point is the extreme paranoia and tactical peeing and pooping protocols can be modified by doing one's business in legitimate venues such that one reduces the probability of attack while on the throne. It is the same kind of analysis that leads folks to conclude that a J frame is sufficient for most concealed carry situations. If you use common sense, perhaps you don't have to sit in Condition Orange while you honk away. The SWAT article described some less than pristine venues for possible attacks. I'm sorry if my analysis of situational awarness offends your lifestyle choices. I choose to poop in the classy restrooms of Nordstroms or the homey venues of Cracker Barrel when on the road. Most nice motels at exits on the Interstates have restrooms. Again - we have the claim that public restrooms are prime locations for muggings. Give me a case of a CCW type with appropriate situational awareness that got into a gun fight, was mugged, lost his or her from a quality holster while on the throne. Otherwise, the thread is a joke and I treat it as such. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 18, 2007, 07:50 PM	#29
protectedbyglock Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: PA Posts: 470	That's why I have a blackhawk holster. The gun can't drop out, and if I do get into a fight somewhere, then my attacker is gonna have to rip through 3inches of leather belt to get it. Perfect time to bash him in the head, I do believe. And after you practice with it a little bit, you can draw a lot quicker than you ever thought you'd be able to. It starts to become natural. I'm not sure if it would still be natural in a life or death situation, but I sure hope so! Anyway, back to question #2. I understand being prepared. Keep your eyes and ears open all the time. This is very important. However, this all seems like overkill. How often do people really get mugged etc. when they are taking a crap? I guess it's a pretty vulnerable spot, really, when you think about it. However, I think I would feel weird laying my gun on a toilet or changing table or toilet paper holder. I don't know why it seems strange. Maybe because I don't like the thought of my piece not being on ME. This post reminds me of that movie Pulp Fiction. John Travolta's character had the same problem. He left his gun on the kitchen counter while he took a dump. Big mistake, 'cause Bruce Willis blasted his ass with it!!

January 18, 2007, 10:57 PM	#31
gdvan01 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2006 Location: Home of the first First Lady Posts: 463	Best. Thread. Ever.

January 19, 2007, 12:29 AM	#32
Gazpacho Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2004 Posts: 592	This has never been much of an issue for me. I carry in a fanny pack. (The Original Tommy's Gunpack) On the can, I hike up the pack until the belt is under my arms. The draw doesn't change. At the urinal, I just pull the pouch up a little. In that instance, the draw is actually a little quicker (no pun intended!) Sitting, standing, walking, running, lying down, belted in the car, the draw doesn't change.

January 19, 2007, 01:28 AM	#34
Gazpacho Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2004 Posts: 592	I live in Las Vegas. LOTS of people wear fanny packs. Also it is small, about the side of two paperback books side by side. Finally, I stitched a Nike Swoosh onto the front of it. People don't give it a FIRST look.

January 19, 2007, 02:59 AM	#36
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	:barf: ugggghhhh I have a hunch this thread isn't going to see another sunrise. The details and literal bathroom humor keep on.

January 19, 2007, 03:05 AM	#37
Red Grant Member Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 98	Yeah, I was kinda afraid of that. It's obvious most of who posted in this thread haven't read Brent's article.

January 19, 2007, 09:21 AM	#39
Trip20 Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Posts: 2,181	I don't know what's more entertaining, the bizarre rituals described in post #5, or that some can't handle a discussion involving bathroom activities. If we're discussing responsible behavior such as safe firearm handling in a precarious position (i.e., the literal "being caught with your pants down")... what’s the big deal?

January 19, 2007, 10:23 AM	#41
GalilARM Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Location: TX Posts: 267	I had been talking up this website for a while to one of my shooting buddies, and I guess he finally ventured over to the site last night because I got a message saying "so that firing line forum you told me about....yeah they talk about how to defend yourself while going number two....you sure about that place?" A little more reading shows you guys are both serious and informative though. This thread is just a little....different.

January 19, 2007, 03:15 PM	#45
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	I once read an article about this as a few LEO have actually mis placed weapons when using public restrooms. I for one never use public restrooms, I eat only cheese and peanut butter when away from home so I am plugged up enough it isnt a problem, then when I get home out comes 2 or 3 cans of peaches, soon after the "plug" comes out and I am OK again in my own home Of course I have several 12 ga pumps and .45 1911s in the restroom close to hand cause an attack will happen, oh yes it will happen..... I also have several SS weapons hanging from the shower head and a gun under the mattress. When I go out, it is like that guy in the movie "gonna get you sucker" you know the guy, he has a table top covered with guns he straps on and puts in his pockets, then he falls down the stairs, every gun goes off one at a time I gotta go to the range now and shoot a bunch I cant wait to tell them about this site and this thread Glad I live in Iowa and not where most of you guys live...

January 19, 2007, 05:08 PM	#46
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	This is a joke thread, right Wildnopersonwithn ormalolafactorysensewouldcomenearmeinapublicrestroomwhilstiam2ingAlaska

January 19, 2007, 06:10 PM	#47
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	Another vote for the drawers-hammock. I lube my 1911 with graphite so grease stains in odd places are not an issue. If you keep your carry piece dripping with CLP, this may not be the best option.

January 19, 2007, 10:20 PM	#48
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	OK, so some have asked why I've left this thread open, and some question the seriousness of the matter. Time for a short story. A few years ago, one of my people made an arrest. It was pretty routine, a 68 yr. old male wanted on a bench warrant. Seems he didn't appear in court for a traffic violation. The officer took it casually. He only did a cursory pat down before placing the man in the cruiser. He brought the man into the station, and I noted without further thought that the man seemed a bit preoccupied with his groin area. Strange, but we get all kinds. After booking, he was transported to the correctional center. Minutes later, I got a call from the Lt. there, and he was furious. It seems this kindly old gentleman had a loaded, .38 spl. J frame tucked away in his crotch. What's that got to do with this thread? Well, the arresting officer fell into the same trap that we're all susceptible to. We tend to avoid situations that put us in socially or politically uncomfortable situations, and THAT can be a serious tactical weakness. In this situation, the officer did what comes naturally to most of us; he avoided what most would think of as intimate contact with another male. He avoided a pat down of the man's crotch. Police academies routinely teach a thorough pat down, done in a professional manner, but I constantly have to review cruiser videos, and frequently see officers making this same, potentially deadly mistake. Granted, few non-LEO's here will have the opportunity to do a pat down or frisk, but you will still instinctively avoid addressing situations that make you uncomfortable. The bathroom situation immediately comes to mind. Life is gritty. You can't pick and choose the tactical situations you might find yourself in. With that in mind, you can't afford to ignore thinking and planning for them in advance. To do so leaves a huge and potentially fatal gap in your own defenses. If you're going to play ball, make sure you cover all the bases. __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

January 19, 2007, 10:48 PM	#49
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Very true Capt. Very good point. The subject of how to handle your gun in the mens room is worth discussing, but aren't we making more out of this than we need to. We are talking about a small enclosed concealed area like a restroom stall. It's like being in your car's front seat. Everything is within arms reach. A gun on the back of commode in a hip holster or hanging on the door in your coat or even shoulder holster is easily accessible and hidden from public view (it is a bathroom stall). Of course you do want to use a little good sense and watch what public restrooms you use (as Mr. Meyer indicated, a sleezy bar at 3:00 am, bad idea but a clean restaraunt or hotel or office building during normal business hours, usually okay) Isn't that all that needs to be said?

January 20, 2007, 12:30 AM	#50
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	I can see three very good reasons for discussing this. 1. Weapons left in restrooms on the back of the toilet. It happens. 2. AD's in the restroom fumbling with a gun someone didn't really think about. At an IPSC match, I overheard a couple of cops discussing a police chief who gave up his gun after sending two toilets to their watery grave. One at the station, the other at a health club. 3. Someone attacking you in the restroom. There was an incident in the "It Happened to me" column in Combat Handguns last year. IIRC, he was mugged at a urinal in a restroom in a rest area. Personally, I don't worry too much about it as I'm usually just carrying a J-frame in my pocket. If I am carrying a pistol IWB it stays in the holster. My holster has good enough tension to keep it upside down or when I'm running. It works okay while I'm pulling my pants down as well.