First 30 rounds loaded - peer review requested please!

Pendragon · September 12, 2002, 12:11 PM

Sanity check:

Ok, can someone look over this and tell me if there are any obvious problems?

I just loaded about 30 rounds of .45ACP last night.

The 2 things I am a little concerned about:

I used 200gr RN cast bullets

My OAL is 1.24

I am worried about how the bullets are crimped.

I have a Lee Turret press and Lee Carbide dies.

I made 17 dummy rounds until I got the seating right - but I am afraid I crimped it too much - the edge of the case mouth is crimped into the bullet so that there is no "edge" - I am aftaid they will not headspace properly and I am not sure what to do about this.

Also - for the powder, I bought some "Power Pistol" powder and I used the Lee powder dippers to charge the cases - I used the .5 cc dipper - it weights right at about 5.0 grains - possibly 4.8-5.2 being my greatest deviation. This is consistent with loading data I saw for my powder and 200gr LSWC

So - is my lack of an exposed casemouth edge going to be a problem? How about the powder charging - sound safe and reasonable?

The bullets are seated well, the rounds look very good, I just want someone to tell me "go shoot 'em up!"

Thanks in advance...

sricciardelli · September 12, 2002, 01:16 PM

The .45ACP headspaces on the case mouth. You have answered your own question.

Bogie · September 12, 2002, 02:12 PM

Easy way to test 'em. If they're for a revolver, do they fit in the cylinder? If they're for an auto, take the thing apart, and use the barrel to check 'em

labgrade · September 12, 2002, 03:33 PM

sricciardelli,

I've also heard that it "headspaces" on the etractor. How else could one shoot a standard .45 ACP in .460 Rowland barrel (with the latter being ~.1" longer in the chamber)?

Serious question as I've heard both.

Jim Watson · September 12, 2002, 03:53 PM

Bogie has it, chamber check them.

You will probably be ok, but consider getting a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. It will post-size the loaded round and apply a taper crimp, which is hard to overdo (Lee says impossible.)

Five grains of Power Pistol ain't much in a .45. But if it functions your gun it will do.

Pendragon · September 12, 2002, 04:24 PM

Thanks Jim - and everyone.

I know it headspaces on the mouth, but I was thinking that the extractor and the breechface would pretty much keep the round in the right place.

as for 5 grains of PP - it is hard to find loading data on this powder - I saw some stuff in a reloading magazine and they said 4.8 was about the minimum, and could go up to about 6 grains so I thougt that the 5ish from the dipper would be safe.

If it is not enough, then my dippers will not work - but I just got them for convenience and simplicity...

The next step up is 2X .3cc or the .7cc dipper - both may be too much...

tawakoni · September 12, 2002, 09:37 PM

Pendragon, from reading your post I get the impression you do not have a scale. I'm sure many reloaders don't have one, but I just cannot imagine relying on a dipper to reload ammunition. Without a reliable scale there is just too much guesswork for my comfort. I urge you to get a quality scale as soon as you can and a set of check weights for it. The electronic ones are very good but pricey. I've been using the same Ohaus balance-beam scale since I first began in 1963. I would not load a single round without it.

If you DO have a good, reliable scale, please forgive me.

Best,

tawakoni

C.R.Sam · September 12, 2002, 10:20 PM

Not good to depend on extractor to maintain headspace.
Firing pin blow can drive case forward.
Primer ignition can drive case forward.

You don't need head seperation and/or blown primers.

Sam

blades67 · September 13, 2002, 12:11 AM

Break out the inertia bullet puller, put the powder back in the hopper, remove the decapping pin from the sizing die and start over. Back your crimp die off so that you get a tapper crimp, not a roll crimp.

Dave P · September 13, 2002, 07:25 AM

I modified Lee dippers by inserting an old cartridge into the dipper. Use hacksaw/dremel/file to shorten until you have the proper volume of your fave powder. Check weight with scales, of course. I still use this dipper tool for 357sig loading, one at a time.

zanthope · September 13, 2002, 08:27 AM

The beam scale in this picture is only about $25.00 at a gun show...and worth a hundred times that in peace of mind. http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/cover1.jpg

WESHOOT2 · September 13, 2002, 04:26 PM

I would shoot your load, but then, I'm an idiot.

However, you load "sounds" fairly safe, and Power Pistol is good for considerably more in the 45ACP.

So.....................Take all this advice.

Pendragon · September 13, 2002, 05:19 PM

Quote:

I used the .5 cc dipper - it weights right at about 5.0 grains - possibly 4.8-5.2 being my greatest deviation.

Again - thanks for the input. I do have a scale - it is the cheapo Lee scale and I weighed several "dips" from the dipper.

the problem is - the little system of using the white lines to show tenths of a grain - I never see just one white line - so I feel like I am, at best, accurate to .2 grains.

I have the autodisk and the scale, I just thought that for my first few, the dippers would actually be easier and I would feel better. Its basically the same principle as the autodisk thingy - but a bit more manual.

Also - I did not know what a taper crimp or a roll crimp were but now it makes sense - I need to raise that die up about just a fudge and then it will not roll the edge of the brass.

I do need a kinetic puller - that is the only thing I do not have :P I wasted 17 bullets and brass trying to get the seating and crimp right - if I had the puller, I could have kept about 10 of those (some were mangled badly).

I am going to try and get a puller, but the store near work charges $25 for them and I have seen them for $15...

I think I am going to pull all of these and redo them if I can.

thanks for all the good advice.

tawakoni · September 13, 2002, 06:04 PM

Pen, Midway was selling the inertia bullet puller for $8.95 several months ago, I bought one but haven't used it yet. Still nice to have. I think the link is:

www.midwayusa.com

Best,

tawakoni

buford1 · September 15, 2002, 12:59 PM

Better to waste 17 bullets than one 45

benewton · September 15, 2002, 04:22 PM

I think that, when in doubt, pull 'em out.

Regardless of reasons, if you think the reloads are questionable, either bury them or recycle, but don't fire them.

I opt for the taper crimp on semi auto pistols, due to headspace considerations, as noted by others.

Look at the bright side; an hour with a Dillon will easily get you 500 rounds. Been there, done that.

The loss of 17 isn't so bad, and I think we'd all prefer you safe.

Steve Smith · September 15, 2002, 07:00 PM

This is one of the reasons that folks say to start with the .45. It is a very forgiving cartridge to load for. Just because folks said, "shoot 'em" doesn't mean this kind of error should be taken with a grain of salt.

YOU KNEW that the case headspaced on the case mouth, you KNEW that you crimped the mouth too much, yet you still asked if it was ok to shoot them? Exactly what are you thinking? Don't lay your safety in our hands. You must decide whether you should shoot them or not, based upon your own (sound?) judgement. If you make a mistake and it is obvious to you, why tempt danger by shooting them? Yes, with the .45 you will probably never notice the difference. With another cartridge and another load, you could blow the gun to pieces, and your hand with it, or your face with a rifle cartridge. I don't think that that's what you want.

In the future, if it is not built correctly, DON'T SHOOT IT. Pull the bullet and correct the mistake.

Is this what you want? Granted, this catastrophic failure has not been accredited to boor handloading practices YET, but I have a feeling it will.

Pendragon · September 16, 2002, 04:46 AM

Thank you Steve.

I was asking if they were ok, because even though they were wrong, I was not sure if my error would affect safety or just affect accuracy and/or cycling.

That is why I asked

I wonder how many KBs are prevented by TFL?

More than one I would say.

Kframe · September 16, 2002, 08:17 AM

Get one of those $40 RCBS scales, I think it's the Model 502 or 505 or something.
Midway, Natchez and Ammo Depot carry it I'm sure.

I started reloading with the Lee Anniversary kit, which includes the scale you've been using.

Like you, I just didn't trust it.
Not too big of a deal when I was loading light (2.7grBullseye under 148grHBWC) .38 Special loads; but with the variations I wasn't getting consistent rounds and accuracy suffered.

Now I reload 9x19, operating at three times the pressure of the .38Spl, and there's no way I would use the Lee scale for that caliber.

Just my $.02, -Kframe

September 12, 2002, 12:11 PM	#1
Pendragon Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,153	First 30 rounds loaded - peer review requested please! Sanity check: Ok, can someone look over this and tell me if there are any obvious problems? I just loaded about 30 rounds of .45ACP last night. The 2 things I am a little concerned about: I used 200gr RN cast bullets My OAL is 1.24 I am worried about how the bullets are crimped. I have a Lee Turret press and Lee Carbide dies. I made 17 dummy rounds until I got the seating right - but I am afraid I crimped it too much - the edge of the case mouth is crimped into the bullet so that there is no "edge" - I am aftaid they will not headspace properly and I am not sure what to do about this. Also - for the powder, I bought some "Power Pistol" powder and I used the Lee powder dippers to charge the cases - I used the .5 cc dipper - it weights right at about 5.0 grains - possibly 4.8-5.2 being my greatest deviation. This is consistent with loading data I saw for my powder and 200gr LSWC So - is my lack of an exposed casemouth edge going to be a problem? How about the powder charging - sound safe and reasonable? The bullets are seated well, the rounds look very good, I just want someone to tell me "go shoot 'em up!" Thanks in advance...

September 12, 2002, 01:16 PM	#2
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	The .45ACP headspaces on the case mouth. You have answered your own question. __________________ http://stevespages.com/page8.htm

September 12, 2002, 02:12 PM	#3
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Easy way to test 'em. If they're for a revolver, do they fit in the cylinder? If they're for an auto, take the thing apart, and use the barrel to check 'em __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

September 13, 2002, 12:11 AM	#9
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	Break out the inertia bullet puller, put the powder back in the hopper, remove the decapping pin from the sizing die and start over. Back your crimp die off so that you get a tapper crimp, not a roll crimp. __________________ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

September 13, 2002, 07:25 AM	#10
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	Dippy Idea I modified Lee dippers by inserting an old cartridge into the dipper. Use hacksaw/dremel/file to shorten until you have the proper volume of your fave powder. Check weight with scales, of course. I still use this dipper tool for 357sig loading, one at a time.

September 12, 2002, 03:33 PM	#4
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	sricciardelli, I've also heard that it "headspaces" on the etractor. How else could one shoot a standard .45 ACP in .460 Rowland barrel (with the latter being ~.1" longer in the chamber)? Serious question as I've heard both.

September 12, 2002, 03:53 PM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Bogie has it, chamber check them. You will probably be ok, but consider getting a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. It will post-size the loaded round and apply a taper crimp, which is hard to overdo (Lee says impossible.) Five grains of Power Pistol ain't much in a .45. But if it functions your gun it will do.

September 12, 2002, 04:24 PM	#6
Pendragon Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,153	Thanks Jim - and everyone. I know it headspaces on the mouth, but I was thinking that the extractor and the breechface would pretty much keep the round in the right place. as for 5 grains of PP - it is hard to find loading data on this powder - I saw some stuff in a reloading magazine and they said 4.8 was about the minimum, and could go up to about 6 grains so I thougt that the 5ish from the dipper would be safe. If it is not enough, then my dippers will not work - but I just got them for convenience and simplicity... The next step up is 2X .3cc or the .7cc dipper - both may be too much...

September 12, 2002, 09:37 PM	#7
tawakoni Member Join Date: November 22, 2000 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 68	Pendragon, from reading your post I get the impression you do not have a scale. I'm sure many reloaders don't have one, but I just cannot imagine relying on a dipper to reload ammunition. Without a reliable scale there is just too much guesswork for my comfort. I urge you to get a quality scale as soon as you can and a set of check weights for it. The electronic ones are very good but pricey. I've been using the same Ohaus balance-beam scale since I first began in 1963. I would not load a single round without it. If you DO have a good, reliable scale, please forgive me. Best, tawakoni

September 12, 2002, 10:20 PM	#8
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Not good to depend on extractor to maintain headspace. Firing pin blow can drive case forward. Primer ignition can drive case forward. You don't need head seperation and/or blown primers. Sam

September 13, 2002, 08:27 AM	#11
zanthope Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 258	The beam scale in this picture is only about $25.00 at a gun show...and worth a hundred times that in peace of mind. http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/cover1.jpg __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then it gets worse.

September 13, 2002, 04:26 PM	#12
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	'POOP' vs 'POP' I would shoot your load, but then, I'm an idiot. However, you load "sounds" fairly safe, and Power Pistol is good for considerably more in the 45ACP. So.....................Take all this advice. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

September 13, 2002, 06:04 PM	#14
tawakoni Member Join Date: November 22, 2000 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 68	Pen, Midway was selling the inertia bullet puller for $8.95 several months ago, I bought one but haven't used it yet. Still nice to have. I think the link is: www.midwayusa.com Best, tawakoni

September 15, 2002, 12:59 PM	#15
buford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2002 Location: long beach.CA Posts: 116	Better to waste 17 bullets than one 45

September 15, 2002, 04:22 PM	#16
benewton Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Location: NH Posts: 253	I think that, when in doubt, pull 'em out. Regardless of reasons, if you think the reloads are questionable, either bury them or recycle, but don't fire them. I opt for the taper crimp on semi auto pistols, due to headspace considerations, as noted by others. Look at the bright side; an hour with a Dillon will easily get you 500 rounds. Been there, done that. The loss of 17 isn't so bad, and I think we'd all prefer you safe.

September 15, 2002, 07:00 PM	#17
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	This is one of the reasons that folks say to start with the .45. It is a very forgiving cartridge to load for. Just because folks said, "shoot 'em" doesn't mean this kind of error should be taken with a grain of salt. YOU KNEW that the case headspaced on the case mouth, you KNEW that you crimped the mouth too much, yet you still asked if it was ok to shoot them? Exactly what are you thinking? Don't lay your safety in our hands. You must decide whether you should shoot them or not, based upon your own (sound?) judgement. If you make a mistake and it is obvious to you, why tempt danger by shooting them? Yes, with the .45 you will probably never notice the difference. With another cartridge and another load, you could blow the gun to pieces, and your hand with it, or your face with a rifle cartridge. I don't think that that's what you want. In the future, if it is not built correctly, DON'T SHOOT IT. Pull the bullet and correct the mistake. Is this what you want? Granted, this catastrophic failure has not been accredited to boor handloading practices YET, but I have a feeling it will. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

September 16, 2002, 04:46 AM	#18
Pendragon Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,153	Thank you Steve. I was asking if they were ok, because even though they were wrong, I was not sure if my error would affect safety or just affect accuracy and/or cycling. That is why I asked I wonder how many KBs are prevented by TFL? More than one I would say.

September 16, 2002, 08:17 AM	#19
Kframe Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 1999 Location: MN Posts: 640	Get one of those $40 RCBS scales, I think it's the Model 502 or 505 or something. Midway, Natchez and Ammo Depot carry it I'm sure. I started reloading with the Lee Anniversary kit, which includes the scale you've been using. Like you, I just didn't trust it. Not too big of a deal when I was loading light (2.7grBullseye under 148grHBWC) .38 Special loads; but with the variations I wasn't getting consistent rounds and accuracy suffered. Now I reload 9x19, operating at three times the pressure of the .38Spl, and there's no way I would use the Lee scale for that caliber. Just my $.02, -Kframe